Same Sex Marriage coming your way

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
and the one of the facts to settle in North America and create this great country to " escape religious persecution"....
That may be true for some, but the original settlers came here not to escape religious persecution or because they found the Church of England to be too strict, but because they found the Church of England to be too lenient, not nearly strict enough.

At that time in England, there was no separation of Church and State. The people worshiped exactly the same way the King or Queen did, period. To worship against the crown was considered treason and it was punishable by imprisonment (and on rare occasions, if you were really adamant about it, death). If the King was Catholic, so were the people. If the King was Protestant, so were the people. Separatists who broke away from the Church of England (the Pilgrims) wanted to simply worship with the rules and rituals of the Anglican Church and live peacefully among others. In 17th century England this was not allowed, and King James I was very strict about it. So the Separatists moved to The Netherlands where they found the religious freedom they wanted, but couldn't find jobs, and felt the Dutch were far too lenient with their children, far too lenient in the way they worshiped (they worked on Sunday instead of observing the Sabbath), and their own children were growing up speaking Dutch and not English, which was bothersome. After a dozen years they went back to England to make arrangements to go to America.

An earlier group of Separatists settled in Jamestown, and the Pilgrims set sail from Plymouth, England headed for present-day New York at the mouth of the Hudson River, but storms prevented that, and 66 days later arrived off the coast of Cape Cod in 1620. In a few week's time the eventually chose Plymouth Harbor as their new home. Great harbor, clean supply of water, fields that were already cleared by the previous occupants (Patuxet Indians who in the 3 previous years had all died from European-brought Smallpox), and of course, no hostile native people because they were already dead.

Interestingly, the Pilgrims were set to depart England on the Mayflower and the Speedwell, but the Speedwell leaked so badly that they left it and most of its passengers behind. Many of the Speedwell's passengers were able to crown onto the Mayflower, 102 passengers and 32 crew on a boat designed for about half that number of passengers. After arriving most lived on the ship while they built houses. That first year, most of it spend on board, was a rough one. People got sick (pneumonia and scurvy) and 47 Pilgrims and half the crew died during that first year. In April 1621 the Mayflower and what as left of her crew returned to England, all of the Pilgrims remained.

Over the next few years more Separatists arrived and the colony grew, despite poor farming conditions (2 years of drought). The investors who financed the Pilgrims lost money, as the Pilgrims were supposed to farm the land and send the cops and fish and timber back top England. Very little got sent back and the investors disbanded in 1625 after receiving no return on their investment and after seeing so many settlers return to England with stories of really, really strict religious demands of the colony church leaders (about one-third of the colonists had returned). Each settler was given 1 acre of land to farm, but the colony's Church owned all the land and the livestock. The profits from the land was grossly mismanaged by Church leaders due to corruption, and the colonists were eventually tasked with having to take on the debts of the Church. It wasn't until 1627 that they finally owned their own livestock and 1628 before they took ownership of their land.

But the ones left behind stuck with the strict religious views, particularly that with sex and the disciplining of children, with many of their views still influencing America today.

Incidentally, after the 2-year drought, after one particularly nasty three-month period where it didn't rain a single drop, they got together one morning for several hours of prayer to pray for rain. By mid afternoon it was raining like crazy and the drought ended just like that. From that day on the farming in the colony was very prosperous. Despite the fact that it either never occurred to them in any time during the previous 2 years to pray for rain, or they did and they're prayers weren't answered, many people still to this day view that as a miracle of the power of prayer rather than the simple occurrence of coincidence that it was.


In answer to Maverick's morality question which I failed to answer directly as to whether or not I have any morality, and to what that morality should entail, yes, I do have a morality, and it's a morality that the Bible is permeated with from start to finish. It's the Golden Rule: Do unto to others as you would have others do unto you. Live and let live - live your life the way you know is right, and let others do the same.

It's a morality that takes care of right and wrong, and doesn't impose onto anyone a set of moral values that is based on a particular belief system which forces others to believe the same things in the same way in order to be moral themselves.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
That may be true for some, but the original settlers came here not to escape religious persecution or because they found the Church of England to be too strict, but because they found the Church of England to be too lenient, not nearly strict enough.

That's because they were apostate and excising their own authority. It's always pretty cool to loosen things up a bit in order to have it your way, and the church of England was doing just that. :)


But the ones left behind stuck with the strict religious views, particularly that with sex and the disciplining of children, with many of their views still influencing America today.

As well it should, but is not. Nothing of today is about discipline of children, save for a very few. And God has a few restrictions on sex....which of course are today being totally ignored, hence resulting social chaos to this regard.

Incidentally, after the 2-year drought, after one particularly nasty three-month period where it didn't rain a single drop, they got together one morning for several hours of prayer to pray for rain. By mid afternoon it was raining like crazy and the drought ended just like that. From that day on the farming in the colony was very prosperous. Despite the fact that it either never occurred to them in any time during the previous 2 years to pray for rain, or they did and they're prayers weren't answered, many people still to this day view that as a miracle of the power of prayer rather than the simple occurrence of coincidence that it was.

OK, so your deciding for everyone here is was just a coincidence? Do you know God answers prayer as He wills, and sometimes it's not what WE think we need, but what He knows we need?

It's the Golden Rule: Do unto to others as you would have others do unto you. Live and let live - live your life the way you know is right, and let others do the same.

Agree with the former, totally disagree with the latter. This is not in the Bible, and is certainly man centered.

It's a morality that takes care of right and wrong, and doesn't impose onto anyone a set of moral values that is based on a particular belief system which forces others to believe the same things in the same way in order to be moral themselves.

But this misses the Biblical point completely. WE ARE ALL SINNERS. I don't posses one bit less sin than you, and this is the point being missed on who Jesus Christ is. God demands "atonement" for sin. As Sky pointed out a few post's back.....we are the ones who did not obey God's command and allowed the evil force to manipulate the outcome. God placed Adam and Eve in a total paradise with ONE command only, and they blew it.

And even though the Jewish nation became an example through the 10 commandments, the law, and what God commanded after that....they blew it.

The whole of the OT has Christ running throughout and the NT depicts God's new covenant of total grace, and we are no longer under the law. God sent Christ for the substitutionary atonement for all sinners who accept the gift. It matters little who sins more....me or you. God demands purity and we can never obtain it. So, Christ took that sin upon Himself as the substitute. One can never appear before God unless Christ represents you before Him.

All this, is of course, nonsense to you....but you tend to reference Biblical ideas with a man centered theology which totally muddies the waters. This needs clarification and correction from a Christian point of view, and belief.
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
The Puritans weren't called that for nothing, but I doubt there are many who would want to live under their rules, no matter how devout one is. Mandatory church attendance at least twice a week, no work or play on Sunday, [only religious study & contemplation], no dancing, playing cards, and a whole long list of "thou shalt nots" to abide by.
The rigid structure wasn't terribly popular even then, and it would be even less so today, when many believe they can 'worship' effectively without guidance or interference.
To each, his own, works for me.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The Puritans weren't called that for nothing, but I doubt there are many who would want to live under their rules, no matter how devout one is. Mandatory church attendance at least twice a week, no work or play on Sunday, [only religious study & contemplation], no dancing, playing cards, and a whole long list of "thou shalt nots" to abide by.
The rigid structure wasn't terribly popular even then, and it would be even less so today, when many believe they can 'worship' effectively without guidance or interference.
To each, his own, works for me.

You are right. Few could live with the strict rules they lived by today. People today are just too darn lazy to do ANYTHING that requires hard work or commitment. Shoot, people today can't even keep the booths clean at McDonald's let alone anything else.

Few good things are EASY, religious or other wise. FAR too many today, or through out history, choose the "high road". Most pick "easy", little effort is required to succeed at nothing.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Los: laziness has zero to do with it.
People have been saying exactly what you say for centuries - I believe Plato said it too, and so what?
:rolleyes:
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Los: laziness has zero to do with it.
People have been saying exactly what you say for centuries - I believe Plato said it too, and so what?
:rolleyes:

Not point in agreeing with you, is there? :confused: Lazy has EVERY thing to do with it. The path of least resistance is EASY to follow. NOTHING good, is EASY.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Puritans weren't called that for nothing, but I doubt there are many who would want to live under their rules, no matter how devout one is.
To each, his own, works for me.

Good point Cherri....but here's the rub on that one:

One does not become adherent to God's will prior to acceptance of His gift, it most emphatically follows the acceptance.

Most people have this backward, and this is where confusion abounds. The Puritans were already under the Holy Spirit and gladly accepted this framework......though admittedly a little out dated now in concept. But conforming non the less.

It's not something they drug themselves through in order to please God, it's something they did willingly as a result of God's gift to them.

And I also have to agree with LOS to a certain degree. The narrow path does require work, but it's done joyfully and willingly....as the Puritans above.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Good point Cherri....but here's the rub on that one:

One does not become adherent to God's will prior to acceptance of His gift, it most emphatically follows the acceptance.

Most people have this backward, and this is where confusion abounds. The Puritans were already under the Holy Spirit and gladly accepted this framework......though admittedly a little out dated now in concept. But conforming non the less.

It's not something they drug themselves through in order to please God, it's something they did willingly as a result of God's gift to them.

And I also have to agree with LOS to a certain degree. The narrow path does require work, but it's done joyfully and willingly....as the Puritans above.

No use wasting your words. Few believe that the effort is worth the result. FAR too many believe that "do what feels good" is more important than TRYING to excel.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
No use wasting your words. Few believe that the effort is worth the result. FAR too many believe that "do what feels good" is more important than TRYING to excel.

Maverick's words aren't "wasted", contrary to your perception. I find his words are thoughtful and thought provoking, unlike broad dismissive statements that substitute glib factoids for actual knowledge.
If you actually know a lot of people who prefer the easy way, and don't want to work hard, perhaps you should associate with a better class of people, because the people I know work hard to succeed at whatever they do.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
And God has a few restrictions on sex....which of course are today being totally ignored, hence resulting social chaos to this regard.
There are a few people who totally ignore God's restrictions on sex, but the bulk who are ignoring restrictions aren't ignoring God's restrictions, they're ignoring the man-made restrictions made in God's name by those interpreting God's restrictions as they see fit.

OK, so your deciding for everyone here is was just a coincidence? Do you know God answers prayer as He wills, and sometimes it's not what WE think we need, but what He knows we need?
And sometimes God doesn't answer prayers at all and it rains anyway. Knowing for sure, without any doubt, that the prayers cause the rain, is classic post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, where since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one. There is no evidence, other than pure belief, that one caused the other and it wasn't pure coincidence.

Agree with the former, totally disagree with the latter. This is not in the Bible, and is certainly man centered.
It's no surprise that it's not the Bible, since my intention is specifically, as was stated, to not impose onto anyone a set of moral values that is based on a particular belief system which forces others to believe the same things in the same way in order to be moral themselves.

But this misses the Biblical point completely.
I wasn't trying to make the Biblical point, I was, in fact, trying to miss the Biblical point entirely.

WE ARE ALL SINNERS. I don't posses one bit less sin than you, and this is the point being missed on who Jesus Christ is. God demands "atonement" for sin. As Sky pointed out a few post's back.....we are the ones who did not obey God's command and allowed the evil force to manipulate the outcome. God placed Adam and Eve in a total paradise with ONE command only, and they blew it.
Now you're preaching religion, and justifying using religion to defend religion by using religion to defend religion. Those who believe in Adam and Eve and the ONE command are likely to take great heed in what you say, but no one else will. They first have to believe in the whole thing, to buy into the premise in the first place. There are many differing accounts of Genesis and those early days, and every one of them claim to be right. And they all have precisely the same validity to that claim.

All this, is of course, nonsense to you....but you tend to reference Biblical ideas with a man centered theology which totally muddies the waters.
I haven't tended to reference Biblical ideas at all, at least not insofar as the Bible in the only place those ideas exist and have ever existed.

This needs clarification and correction from a Christian point of view, and belief.
Why? It's my own thoughts and ideas. Why do they need to be altered, edited or amended?
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Maverick's words aren't "wasted", contrary to your perception. I find his words are thoughtful and thought provoking, unlike broad dismissive statements that substitute glib factoids for actual knowledge.

20.jpg


It's on the way Cherri.... :)
 
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Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
All these wonderful toys to play with.

Got the balloon quote action going, pay offs in place, and nothing like entertainment on a hard shell......:confused:
 
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Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Why? It's my own thoughts and ideas. Why do they need to be altered, edited or amended?

Because it's your own thoughts and ideas....which constantly error when speaking toward Biblical matters. It's no surprise to me, that people like you; who don't believe in the Bible, love the world while thinking they have all the answers, and ridicule Christians....constantly seek to undermine the very thing you don't believe in, thus can know nothing about.....yet call us the hypocrites.

I tend to leave nuclear scientist for telling me about nuclear matters. You seem to retain no such humility, and would be a source of frustration....save for non-judgmental tendency, which you seem to lack in this case.

So let's see here.....Your the expert on finance, government, social matters, gays, marriage, tire pressures, hygiene, et al.....right along with the very thing you DON"T believe in? My, MY....we should all be so blessed.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Why? It's my own thoughts and ideas. Why do they need to be altered, edited or amended?
Because it's your own thoughts and ideas....which constantly error when speaking toward Biblical matters.
That right there is the arrogance that I and many others dislike so much about far too many Christians. Just because I accept a different interpretation of the Bible than you do does not make mine wrong out of hand.

It's no surprise to me, that people like you; who don't believe in the Bible, love the world while thinking they have all the answers, and ridicule Christians....constantly seek to undermine the very thing you don't believe in, thus can know nothing about.....yet call us the hypocrites.
My aren't WE judgmental tonight. You don't have to believe in something to know or understand it. There was a time, in fact, that I very much did. Now you're the one trying to ridicule what you do not understand. And no, I don't ridicule all Christians, just the ones who are doing or saying things worthy of ridicule.

I tend to leave nuclear scientist for telling me about nuclear matters. You seem to retain no such humility, and would be a source of frustration....save for non-judgmental tendency, which you seem to lack in this case.
Things are not what they seem.

So let's see here.....Your the expert on finance, government, social matters, gays, marriage, tire pressures, hygiene, et al.....right along with the very thing you DON"T believe in? My, MY....we should all be so blessed.
You left out of your snarky comments the one and only thing at which I have actually claimed to be an expert. I'm not sure where you came up with finance or hygiene, as I've never professed any particular knowledge of either, and while I'm generally clean and smell lemony fresh, I am not good with finances at all. As to the other topics, I am far from an expert, but some of those I have devoted a great of time and study to educate myself on such matters. I do that with anything I am interested in. And I won't apologize for it. Granted, I realize that education and intellectualism beyond the text of the Bible is not something that Christians foster or promote, and in fact have historically hindered and discouraged, so I understand your disdain for me and those like me who refuse to just accept what they are told at face value.

I can't believe you asked me a question about my morality under the guise of "not being smart here.....just askin," and then I give you an honest answer to which you use to belittle and degrade my beliefs and me as a person in a personal attack. How very Christian of you.
 

westmicher

Veteran Expediter
What I always find most interesting about such issues is, those that demand I have "tolerance" of their views have, without exception, no tolerance of my views. :confused:
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
What I always find most interesting about such issues is, those that demand I have "tolerance" of their views have, without exception, no tolerance of my views. :confused:

so whats the point of all this jibber jabber?...it appears we are all sinners anyways well doh....right up to the end when we will be judged....
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
so whats the point of all this jibber jabber?...it appears we are all sinners anyways well doh....right up to the end when we will be judged....

Jibber Jabber!??! :D........Had not heard that one for a while and brought on a good old fashioned hoot laugh. That's pretty much it VanMan, we are all sinners and nowhere in this thread do I find someone with a holier than though attitude, though I think it's sought after in order to pounce at the slightest hint, and in some cases, twisted and stretched if nothing's really there to pounce on.

There seem to be a handful of Christians here, with no way of knowing how many read, but do not post. We should pay little attention to the digs, the under the table laughter, and posted images which mock our belief. These things are to be totally expected and this thread did not disappoint to that regard. :)

That being expressed, it will always be my position to defend doctrinal view and Biblical truth. There are those of us who know God, are born again in The Spirit, and understand what the Bible both says, and means. The unbeliever cannot possibly teach us anything new here. Throwing around the same old tired ridicule points, judgmental accusations, and looking for every way in the world to undermine that truth should be considered a futile adventure at this point.

That same old wrecking ball certain people bring into other threads and conversations will not work here. Believe what you want, I say, but it's pretty difficult for a non-believer to school, or prove a taskmaster, to the true believer. It can't be done, was not accomplished here, but I'd just bet pappy a mule it will be tried again.

Anyhoo! It filled the time from load to unload. :D :cool: On to the fun goal of heading north to home. Been a long stretch and my view from the back porch will entail the blooming of buttercups, Chippers (the resident crazy ground squirrel) running all around acting crazy, and perhaps even an ice cold frosty micro. I'll check with God on that one......but I think it's all going to be OK.
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
So you can see why I don't get too worked up over this religious thing. In the end it's between me and Him that's why I cut out the middleman. God has no religion.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Jibber Jabber!??! :D........Had not heard that one for a while and brought on a good old fashioned hoot laugh. That's pretty much it VanMan, we are all sinners and nowhere in this thread do I find someone with a holier than though attitude, though I think it's sought after in order to pounce at the slightest hint, and in some cases, twisted and stretched if nothing's really there to pounce on.

There seem to be a handful of Christians here, with no way of knowing how many read, but do not post. We should pay little attention to the digs, the under the table laughter, and posted images which mock our belief. These things are to be totally expected and this thread did not disappoint to that regard. :)

That being expressed, it will always be my position to defend doctrinal view and Biblical truth. There are those of us who know God, are born again in The Spirit, and understand what the Bible both says, and means. The unbeliever cannot possibly teach us anything new here. Throwing around the same old tired ridicule points, judgmental accusations, and looking for every way in the world to undermine that truth should be considered a futile adventure at this point.

That same old wrecking ball certain people bring into other threads and conversations will not work here. Believe what you want, I say, but it's pretty difficult for a non-believer to school, or prove a taskmaster, to the true believer. It can't be done, was not accomplished here, but I'd just bet pappy a mule it will be tried again.

Anyhoo! It filled the time from load to unload. :D :cool: On to the fun goal of heading north to home. Been a long stretch and my view from the back porch will entail the blooming of buttercups, Chippers (the resident crazy ground squirrel) running all around acting crazy, and perhaps even an ice cold frosty micro. I'll check with God on that one......but I think it's all going to be OK.

If someone doesn't agree with you, I wouldn't be so quick to assume they are "non believers". That is why there are different religions. If they all said and followed the same thing, there would only be one religion. What you may interpret as "mocking" may be something as simple as someone not agreeing with you. Nothing is ever absolute except maybe death and taxes.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
If someone doesn't agree with you, I wouldn't be so quick to assume they are "non believers". That is why there are different religions. If they all said and followed the same thing, there would only be one religion. What you may interpret as "mocking" may be something as simple as someone not agreeing with you. Nothing is ever absolute except maybe death and taxes.

But here's the thing Dave........Nowhere did I ask someone to agree with me. Refuting error in Biblical interpretation is not forcing someone to agree, it's demanding Biblical discernment toward interpretation. And mocking is mocking....no matter what the reason, but could really care less about that aspect.

If one is not born again in The Spirit, they are by definition, a non-believer and not qualified to tell a believer what God has written, or what it means. This is what GOD says, not Maverick. It's not me your disagreeing with at all....it's God Himself who gives knowledge to a believer, and matter of fact, many examples are given whereby it's purposely worded to confuse those not born again.

This ain't Old Yeller, Harry Potter, or Tinkerbell, or just some normal book one picks up and decides what he feels it means. It's a spiritual book, written for spiritual people of God. As for all those other religions and beliefs you people keep droning about? Are you telling them what their book means, without believing what they do?
 
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