Same Sex Marriage coming your way

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Last time I looked most of these people were American citizens? Wanting the same rights as anyone else....the same constitution as everyone else....they petitioned their government to do just that....they are fighting for their right to be a equal citizen, sexual preference is not an exclusion to the same rights of every American.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
because government is involved is why it is in the mess it is in.....
like ANY group fighting a cause...to have any impact they must get in the face....or go home and shut up.....they just want to be equal with no exceptions, just equal....I am quite sure many a white guy said the blacks wanted to be special when they started the movement, when all they wanted was equal treatment under the common law....and again the government got involved and messed that up....

The ONLY group that has been chased down by Federal troops, due to a marriage issue, IS primarily white and it was TRYING to practice a particular form of HETEROSEXUAL marriage. It would seem to me that if ANY group has a RIGHT to fight the feds on this issue it would be the Mormons.

This COULD have been solved in a matter of DAYS, IF, the "Gay Rights" crowd REALLY wanted it solved, they did not.

Equal is one thing, what is being pushed is NOT equality.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Last time I looked most of these people were American citizens? Wanting the same rights as anyone else....the same constitution as everyone else....they petitioned their government to do just that....they are fighting for their right to be a equal citizen, sexual preference is not an exclusion to the same rights of every American.


What "RIGHT" do they not already have? :confused: They want a SPECIAL RIGHT written into law.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
What "RIGHT" do they not already have? :confused: They want a SPECIAL RIGHT written into law.

The right to a civil bonding in any city in any state....I do believe there are some that dont do this....I might be wrong tho...
as far as "marriage' goes...they can change religions there are many churches now that recognize gay....they should get the same benefits as any married person...but are denied because of sexual preference...and that to me is discrimatory.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The right to a civil bonding in any city in any state....I do believe there are some that dont do this....I might be wrong tho...
as far as "marriage' goes...they can change religions there are many churches now that recognize gay....they should get the same benefits as any married person...but are denied because of sexual preference...and that to me is discrimatory.

"Civil Bonding" and "marriage" SHOULD be two different things, which would solve the problem.

I don't EVEN want to hear about what one state will not recognize from another either. EXAMPLE:

The Constitution enumerates the RIGHT to own and carry firearms, without restriction, and yet, MANY states DENY me that RIGHT.Those same states will use FORCE to deny me that RIGHT. You will also find that MANY "gay rights", "civil rights" and "woman's" rights groups are working in lock step to insure that the Second Amendment is taken away. They have not Constitutional credibility.

As I said, there is little now that they cannot have by going to a lawyer and drawing up a contract, a "civil bonding", and that solves it.

The rest, like Social Security and health insurance, are not government issues, or at least they should NOT be in a free country.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
well....looking back....between abortion and gays...it sure consumes the soapbox....at least once a month for the same 2 topics..and nearly every post the same in each....LOL.....my how we go on and on and on and on....:)
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Been nice crossing swords again Layout....
you too Maverick....no hard feelings I hope....remember it is just opinion....:)...
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner

Based on that post, I would say you are making a judgement IF someone doesn't believe as you do.


Huh? What? How in the world did you come up with this one? God makes the judgment on gays as clearly stated at the very beginning of the post. Again, we have someone here who just willy nilly makes an accusation when the post clearly and precisely states quite the opposite.

Where do you people get this stuff? :D

"I have not made any such judgement on gays. Your right, God makes that judgement, but already has....thus freeing me from any need to, so I've not."

This is the perplexing part spoken of. Most every time a believer opens their mouth, or types a sentence.....its bigoted, judgmental, and bashing of someone. It's almost as if a predetermined thought has been injected where it doesn't belong at all. No offense Dav....but that was easily refuted.

Let's go back to what was stated in another post and clear this one up. CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO JUDGE THOSE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. GOD DOES THAT.

We are to defend the faith within the body of believers and keep our own house clean. I think what your doing is linking us with GOD"S judgement and acting as though WE determine that. We don't! :p

I would say you are making that judgement with this type of quote and others.

A gay is not born, and it's not anything to do with God "creating" a homosexual, then denouncing that person.

This is where I "get this stuff" For every item that supports one way of thinking, there are ones that don't.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Your right.....the constitution was based on a certain moral code, no longer present. So, do you believe in any sort of morality? If so, what do you propose it should entail? Should it be the world according to Maverick, a reptilian form of social justice, (sorry, couldn't help it) or should we all just run around like a bunch of animals in a kingdom?

Not being smart here.....just askin?:cool:

The reality is, it's impossible to NOT legislate morality. All laws are legislating morality in one way or another. Laws regarding murder, stealing, these are clearly legislating morality. Even speed limit laws imply a certain moral right to life. Morality is the delineation of right and wrong, and laws are the attempt to legislate moral behavior.

That's different from enacting laws to make people moral, however. You can't do that with any success at all. That's never worked. There are some stellar examples of failed attempts to make people moral according to a subset of society, most notably Prohibition, gambling laws, drug laws, anti-abortion laws, the laws requiring citizens to be a member of a church, interracial marriage laws... it's quite a list.

Society at large, and not some small subset of it, decides what is right and what is wrong. I know it's tempting to want to legislate one's particular version of the Bible as the ultimate source of morality, to force people to be Biblically moral according to the moral code of the interpreter, but if you can do that, you can also legislate the Quran or any other religious text. Or for that matter, any book at all, like a Harry Potter book.

Society's morals certainly overlap and are influenced by religious texts, but then again those religious texts were influenced by the morals of society that were established in place at the time they were written.

My point is, if you're going to complain about legislation that is "anti Christian," legislation that allows for people to have morals which are different from biblical Christian morals, because you think those laws are trying to change your morals, then you must also complain about legislation that forces those same biblical morals onto others, and for the same reasons. Because, again you can only legislate moral behavior, right and wrong, you cannot legislate to make people moral by forcing your morals onto someone else.
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
That would only be a presumption of their thoughts. No one really knows or can presume to know. We then interject our own assumptions. And that there in lies the problem.


I do know..my nephew who was blacklisted from his nutty religious parents because of WHO HE IS...we have talked extensively... this is why I am so touchy on this subject...IT IS NOT A CHOICE!!
Sent from my DROID RAZR using EO Forums mobile app
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The reality is, it's impossible to NOT legislate morality. All laws are legislating morality in one way or another. Laws regarding murder, stealing, these are clearly legislating morality. Even speed limit laws imply a certain moral right to life. Morality is the delineation of right and wrong, and laws are the attempt to legislate moral behavior.

That's different from enacting laws to make people moral, however. You can't do that with any success at all. That's never worked. There are some stellar examples of failed attempts to make people moral according to a subset of society, most notably Prohibition, gambling laws, drug laws, anti-abortion laws, the laws requiring citizens to be a member of a church, interracial marriage laws... it's quite a list.

Society at large, and not some small subset of it, decides what is right and what is wrong. I know it's tempting to want to legislate one's particular version of the Bible as the ultimate source of morality, to force people to be Biblically moral according to the moral code of the interpreter, but if you can do that, you can also legislate the Quran or any other religious text. Or for that matter, any book at all, like a Harry Potter book.

Society's morals certainly overlap and are influenced by religious texts, but then again those religious texts were influenced by the morals of society that were established in place at the time they were written.

My point is, if you're going to complain about legislation that is "anti Christian," legislation that allows for people to have morals which are different from biblical Christian morals, because you think those laws are trying to change your morals, then you must also complain about legislation that forces those same biblical morals onto others, and for the same reasons. Because, again you can only legislate moral behavior, right and wrong, you cannot legislate to make people moral by forcing your morals onto someone else.

Wish I typed that...:)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I do know..my nephew who was blacklisted from his nutty religious parents because of WHO HE IS...we have talked extensively... this is why I am so touchy on this subject...IT IS NOT A CHOICE!!
Sent from my DROID RAZR using EO Forums mobile app

And I know blacks who won't speak to whites, whites that won't speak to blacks, Jews who won't speak to Christians, Christians who won't speak to Jews, etc etc etc. That is life. You cannot changes feelings, beliefs and emotions, through the use of force, and expect a good outcome. Just as in everything else, forcing this will make is worse and slow REAL progress. I even know gays who HATE anything and everything that is not gay. It is what it is.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Been nice crossing swords again Layout....
you too Maverick....no hard feelings I hope....remember it is just opinion....:)...

Not at all VanMan. Enjoy a good discussion and certainty respect everyone's opinion.

Be safe out there....and keep your britches outta the ditches!
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Wish I typed that...:)


Agreed and very true for the most part. The comment was in reference to the slow removal of the moral base once prevalent in this society. It's going the other direction, which should please most people in this country. Legislation not even brought forth 50 years ago is now passing through the rubber stamped system.

I often call it TBS because that's really all it is to me. Every move made, every law passed, every attempt at bringing this country down is predictable, foretold, and easily deciphered in purpose. No, you can't regulate morality from a man centered core, and expect to please everyone.

Whether it's your belief system or no, it's my own belief that parallel to this happening....a protective hand once placed on this country is being slowly removed. History proves you cannot go down this current path, and survive for long. For the Christian who understands what this all means....it's not a scary time at all. The shining light on the hill is no longer and people seem fine with that, but don't be surprised when it bites back. I won't be. ;)
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Maverick: what I disagree with is your contention that "a protective hand once placed on this country is being slowly removed".
Huh? Was it really better long ago, when slavery was accepted, women couldn't vote, blacks couldn't even sit at the same lunch counter as whites [much less marry them], etc? There were a whole lot of people who would have said that any "protective hand" over the country was protecting only some people, and not the 'true Christians', either.
Every society changes over time. That's not attributable to God, only to time itself.
Also, if you want to credit God for the 'good' things, you have to blame Him for the 'bad' ones, but no one is willing to do that, are they? A common remark is that a deceased person is watching over their loved ones, and is pleased with the happy events such as weddings, births, etc - but no one ever considers whether those same deceased persons are also witnessing the pain, suffering, and tragic events among the still living. I just don't accept that you [generic 'you'!] can have it both ways, where God gets credit for the good, but no blame for the rotten.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
Mankind is the blame for evil. It was all Eve's fault, women,,,they did it, it was a tree and fruit thing, darn that fruit tree................Genesis 3,
New International Version (NIV)
The Fall

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
20 Adam[c] named his wife Eve,[d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Footnotes:

Genesis 3:15 Or seed
Genesis 3:15 Or strike NOTE: All this happened before lawyers and the Supreme Court.......
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Maverick: what I disagree with is your contention that "a protective hand once placed on this country is being slowly removed".
Huh? Was it really better long ago, when slavery was accepted, women couldn't vote, blacks couldn't even sit at the same lunch counter as whites [much less marry them], etc? There were a whole lot of people who would have said that any "protective hand" over the country was protecting only some people, and not the 'true Christians', either.
Every society changes over time. That's not attributable to God, only to time itself.
Also, if you want to credit God for the 'good' things, you have to blame Him for the 'bad' ones, but no one is willing to do that, are they? A common remark is that a deceased person is watching over their loved ones, and is pleased with the happy events such as weddings, births, etc - but no one ever considers whether those same deceased persons are also witnessing the pain, suffering, and tragic events among the still living. I just don't accept that you [generic 'you'!] can have it both ways, where God gets credit for the good, but no blame for the rotten.

and the one of the facts to settle in North America and create this great country to " escape religious persecution"....
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
K, K.....finally hit South Texas, and man, did I really blow that route. Won't take it again. :D

Cherri, that post was purposely worded as my belief....not presented as fact, or meant to sway others in my favor. LOL....I'm sure at this point, that would be a foolish act and I try to avoid foolishness, though some might disagree.

You don't believe what I do, so it remains a futile endeavor when trying to explain each others point of view. Any attempt in doing so is nothing but a merry go round of bantering, with no possible agreement ever forthcoming.....and I tend to avoid those conversations.

However, you raised an interesting point in which I do feel compelled to address (and out of respect for your reply/question) It's a very delicate subject, which I've tried to avoid, and only alluded to once in this thread.

There are two forces at work here. (again, telling you what I know to be true, with the full acknowledgment that you do not believe it) One cannot believe in God without knowing full well the opposite force at work. I have personally dealt with both forces and can express with utmost certainty, they exist. Put mildly, if you do not believe in either one, you will not experience either one. There are more serious aspects to be considered, but will not labor those waters here.

Suffice it to say, there are very serious forces at work on this planet. One can gleefully move through life and never seem affected by them, because they do not feel or know them. But once you do, it's not any real stretch in figuring out which you prefer to be under.

The born again Christian feels both, yet can also gleefully walk, knowing their under a protective hand. It's no accident they seem to be at peace for the most part. I look at the apostate church with the same disdain as Our Lord did, as he admonished and outright called them a brood of vipers. Their pious ways continue to this day and though we are not to become entangled in worldly affairs, we are to contend for the faith, stand our ground, and be true to God's word. You may be happy to know......it's these very apostate persons who will eventually turn on those who are not. It's happening already.
 
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