Tragic Death for American Military Hero

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Do you recognize irony when you type it?

Speaking of mental health, it's accepted that Kyle was an expert on being 'lethal', [because rattlesnakes can't talk
:rolleyes:], but I'm wondering why he thought he had the qualifications to treat someone suffering from a mental disorder. 'Been there & done that' works for alcoholics, but mental illness is a whole 'nother kind of problem, and amateurs have no business 'treating' it, no matter how well intentioned.
If Kyle was dabbling in therapy for PTSD, he died of his own hubris.

At least he TRIED!

He was not so much trying to "treat" as he was getting some people out of hell holes like Walter Reed or Madigan, were the military drugs the crap out of vets that need REAL help. Sometimes they are not allowed outside for months at a time. It is HORRIBLE what is going on. I don't believe it was hubris as much as caring. Something those people in those places see little of.

I had a bunch who were at Walter Reed at my deer camp a couple of seasons ago. It was a REAL eye opener. Just a few days in the wood, away from that "place" made an amazing difference.

Of course, Paul, got sent back over where he got messed up AGAIN. Third Purple Heart. The "mental problems" are REALLY bad this time.

Then there is my son who got caught up in that mess at Madigan. He TOO ended up at Walter Reed for a bit. Now it has become personal for me. I did not even know who I was talking to when he was on the "coctail" of crap they had him on. He gained over 60 pounds in less than two months. He is doing better now. It has been two years and he MAY get his medical discharge before this year is up.

What this administration is doing to these people is criminal.

Sure wish I could find a way to just work with those vets than drive this stinky old truck. Then I would be useful again. I miss that.
 
Last edited:

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Well ... this ought to go over like a lead balloon ... at least with some here:

GUILT, NOT PTSD, IS WHAT AFFLICTS IRAQ WAR VETERANS

by Jacob G. Hornberger
February 5, 2013

Ex-military sniper Chris Kyle was killed last Saturday at the hands of another Iraq War veteran, Eddie Ray Routh. Routh is one of the many Iraq veterans suffering severe mental problems, and Kyle was helping him cope. Kyle figured a good way to help Routh with his struggles was to take him to a gun range. It turned out to be a fatal decision. Routh opened fire on Kyle and another friend, killing them both. Routh is now in jail in Texas facing capital murder charges.

According to the New York Times, last September Routh threatened to murder his family and to commit suicide. He had gotten upset when his father threatened to sell his gun. Routh was arrested and taken to a psychiatric hospital in Dallas. He told the police that he was a Marine veteran suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

PTSD is the common diagnosis for the many soldiers who served in Iraq and who are now suffering severe mental problems. The diagnosis relates to the stress that soldiers undergo in combat.

I’ve got another explanation for the mental problems suffered by Routh and the other Iraq War veterans: guilt — massive unresolved guilt over the wrongful killing of other human beings.

Let’s keep in mind that Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. In fact, Iraq never attacked the United States or even threatened to do so. In the Iraq War, the U.S. government was the aggressor. Iraq was the defending nation.

The United States had no authority, legal or moral, to attack, invade, and occupy Iraq. No nation has the authority to attack another nation and kill people in the process. The fact that the U.S. government has the most powerful army in history and that Iraq was just a Third World nation makes the situation even worse.

Since the U.S. government was the aggressor in the war on Iraq, that means that no U.S. soldier had the moral authority to kill even one single Iraqi. Every single soldier who killed an Iraqi or who even participated in the enterprise was guilty of murder in a moral, religious, and spiritual sense.

How can the murder of another human being not have an enormous psychological impact on the killer, especially when the killer is a normal human being as compared to a sociopathic serial killer? Ultimately, the conscience starts working and eating away at the person’s subconscious mind.

However, the problem is that the military can never acknowledge the veteran’s feelings of guilt because that would imply that the U.S. government was wrong to send the troops into Iraq. That’s just not going to happen. The government has to continue maintaining its official line — that it was right to invade the country and Iraq was wrong to defend against the invasion.

How can a person be healed of guilt when he’s being told that he didn’t do anything wrong and that he’s really just suffering from combat stress? Doesn’t relief from guilt require an acknowledgement that the person has done something wrong, as compared to something stressful? Unlike combat stress, doesn’t guilt require confession, repentance, and forgiveness?

Yet, that’s the last thing these guys are encouraged to do. Instead, people thank them for their service in Iraq, reinforcing the image that they they’ve done something right by killing Iraqis. They’re praised for their heroism and courage in battle, notwithstanding the fact that they had no legal, religious, or moral grounds for killing people in Iraq.

Consider the following incident related by Kyle, who was one of the U.S. military’s deadliest snipers. Two weeks after he arrived in Iraq, he encountered a woman with a child who pulled a grenade as she was approached by a group of Marines. Kyle shot her dead. He said, “It was my duty to shoot, and I don’t regret it. My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman’s twisted soul.”

But who here has the twisted soul? That woman was defending her country from the troops of a brutal foreign regime that had unlawfully invaded and occupied her country and killed countless of her countrymen, perhaps members of her family or friends or acquaintances. Kyle was a soldier who had blindly followed the orders of the president to attack, invade, and occupy a country that had never attacked the United States and was killing people who were resisting his aggression.

Ask yourself: What would American men and women do if the United States were attacked, invaded, and occupied by, say, North Korea? Wouldn’t many Americans defend their country, their families, and their homes from the aggressors? Who would Americans consider the twisted souls in that case — the people who were defending or the North Koreans who had attacked, invaded, and occupied the United States?

Soon after the invasion of Iraq, I asked a libertarian Catholic priest whether a soldier who was sent to Iraq could legitimately kill people who were resisting his aggression. He responded, “Absolutely not! No one has the right to wrongfully kill another human being. The fact that the U.S. government has placed them in a position of kill or be killed does not excuse their killing of an Iraqi who happens to be shooting at them.”

Consider a burglar who breaks into someone’s house in the middle of the night. When the owner opens fire, would we praise the burglar for heroically defending himself by shooting the owner? Of course not. Since the burglar has no right to be in the house, he has no right to defend himself by shooting the owner in self-defense.

For some 12 years, all too many Americans, including many church ministers, have steadfastly chosen to remain in denial about Iraq by avoiding the central issue — that the United States had no legal or moral authority to attack, invade, and occupy that country and, therefore, that the troops had no right to kill Iraqis. Instead, the notion has been that if we just keep on praising and honoring the troops for their “service” in Iraq, everything will be fine.

But everything isn’t fine, as evidenced by the suicides, murders, divorces, family violence, drug addiction, alcoholism, and mental problems manifested by Iraq War veterans. As long as Americans, including the troops, remain in denial of what the United States did to Iraq, the problem isn’t likely to go away.


Guilt, Not PTSD, Is What Afflicts Iraq War Veterans The Future of Freedom Foundation
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The fact that Ron Paul served in the military (in a safe, non-combat position 50 yrs ago when the draft was in effect) makes his callous comment even more contemptible.
Well contempt isn't anything you seem to have a shortage of ...

Of course, in this case it's contempt for a peaceful man ... one who doesn't grovel at the cult of militarism and death in appropriate, respectful worshipfulness ... all while you pay homage to a man who was self-admitted liar and criminal ... and a murderer ...

But in spite of the out-of-touch attitudes of his squirrelly 'ol dad, Rand Paul obviously appreciates the sacrifices made by today's volunteers who risk life and limb to protect the Constitution that Ron Paul holds so dear.
Protect the Constitution ?

Is that what they're doing ?

Man ... you've really sucked down the koolaid haven't you ?

What ... are you getting it by the tanker truck load ?

Swearing to do something - and actually doing it - are two entirely different things.

Please tell us all how invading Iraq - and engaging in a war of aggression (a violation of international law and a war crime), the justification for which was based on lies, against a country that had not attacked us - "protects" the Constitution ...

Maybe you just haven't noticed ... or had a real look around lately ... but the Constitution and our rights as sovereign citizens, some of which are enshrined in it, has been under pretty vigorous assault of late - certainly since about 2001 (actually well before that) ... most recently starting with the POS you (likely) and I voted into office as President in 2000, and continuing to the POS that currently occupies that office presently ...

Tell us all how - by acting as the personal handmaidens and lackeys of these two individuals - the Constitution was "protected" ?

'Splain for me how exactly that works ... just like I wuz a child ... cause it certainly doesn't appear that "protection" was all that effective to me ...

One would think that after a significant number of years living, that an individual would have at least some minimal insight into the nature of men - all men ... but particularly those men who are often attracted, or aspire, to the political arena ...

Yet someone can wave the flag, sing The Star Spangled Banner or The Battle Hymn Of The Republic ... and a certain percentage of the population becomes hypnotized to the point of nearly being catatonic ... and can be led around as though they were wearing nose-rings, with string attached ...

Maybe old Pappy should have just paraphrased Ted Cruz's condolences instead of shooting off his mouth.
Nah ... it was a "teaching moment" ... better to take advantage of the opportunity ... before one more single life is frivolously thrown away in vain ...
 
Last edited:

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well ... this ought to go over like a lead balloon ... at least with some here:



Guilt, Not PTSD, Is What Afflicts Iraq War Veterans The Future of Freedom Foundation

There may be SOME truth in this, but much of the article is very incorrect. No point in going into what that is, even when the entire truth comes out few will believe it. There are lies being fed by the mostly left wing (for lack of a better term) news media.

SOME may argue that they need to lie to offset the lies the government is telling. Well, let's see, yes the government sometimes lies. Sometimes to protect sources, human or other wise. Sometimes because it suits their needs, what ever they may be. The job of the "free press" is to be a check and balance on the government. When they spend most of their time lying, which they do, then there are no checks, no balance, no chance of anyone figuring out the reality. We all lose.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
RLENT said:
Well ... this ought to go over like a lead balloon ... at least with some here:
I knew you'd say something in this thread that I agree with. The rest of the post... not so much.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Right, that is all that needed to be said. I like Rand.

Rand is, first and foremost, a politician. He is paid to twist the truth and divert attentions. His father was, first and foremost, a constitutional scholar. That means he was bad at sugar-coating the truth. He was always an in-your-face kind of guy when it came to the blatent, but ignored, obviousness of the situation at hand. Sorta like, "Hey man! Open your friggen eyes, and see what the hell is happening! You're getting raped, and don't even know it!"

I like the guy, and wish we had a dozen more like him in Congress. We need libertarians "sucking up all the allotted time" on the floor.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We just need to get rid of ALL of them and start over. It is WAY too late to try to get this bunch to act right. The corruption runs WAY too deep, from the top down. Get rid of that mess in the SC court as well, or at least get them a copy of Roget's Thesaurus.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Looks like this bozo was a member of the "Jihad For Jesus" Brigade:

Kyle's autobiography was unapologetically politically incorrect: During one visit home between deployments, he got a tattoo of a crusader cross on his arm.

"I wanted everyone to know I was a Christian," Kyle wrote. "I had it put in in red, for blood. I hated the **** savages I'd been fighting. I always will. They've taken so much from me."

'American Sniper' Chris Kyle shot dead in a post-combat world - Los Angeles Times

His career choice sure was a funny way of going about it.

The irony here is that the man thought that merely having a symbol imprinted on his body would be "evidence" he was a Christian ... rather than the manner in which he chose to conduct and lead his life ...
 
Last edited:

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"But in that backroom or whatever it is when God confronts me with my sins, I do not believe any of the kills I had during the war will be among them. Everyone I shot was evil. I had good cause on every shot. They all deserved to die."

You just can't make it up.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Too bad his musical tastes didn't include John Prine at a very early age - it sure might have saved a widow and two orphans a lot of heartache:

 
Last edited:

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Do you recognize irony when you type it?

Speaking of mental health, it's accepted that Kyle was an expert on being 'lethal', [because rattlesnakes can't talk
:rolleyes:], but I'm wondering why he thought he had the qualifications to treat someone suffering from a mental disorder. 'Been there & done that' works for alcoholics, but mental illness is a whole 'nother kind of problem, and amateurs have no business 'treating' it, no matter how well intentioned.
If Kyle was dabbling in therapy for PTSD, he died of his own hubris.
Group psychotherapy is likely the most beneficial psychotherapy method for PTSD, especially for military personnel and veterans.

Psychotherapy Treatment for PTSD | Psych Central
According to CNN, "...Authorities said Kyle, 38, often took veterans with post traumatic stress to the gun range as a way of bonding with and mentoring them."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/04/politics/navy-seal-sniper-shooting/index.html

The general public has no way of knowing what Kyle's qualifications were, but it's obvious from the news reports that he was experienced working with veterans dealing with PTSD. Judging from Routh's recent history of treatment at mental institutions, there were probably other psychological issues besides PTSD. Maybe Kyle was aware of this history, maybe not - we'll probably never know. But given Chris Kyle's dedication to helping veterans deal with their problems and become more productive members of society, the statement that "he died of his own hubris" is - to put it mildly - uninformed.
 
Last edited:

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"But in that backroom or whatever it is when God confronts me with my sins, I do not believe any of the kills I had during the war will be among them. Everyone I shot was evil. I had good cause on every shot. They all deserved to die."

You just can't make it up.
It's difficult, if not impossible for those who have never been in combat to understand the mentality of those that were.

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but make the other b*****d die for his."
- Gen. George S. Patton
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
According to CNN, "...Authorities said Kyle, 38, often took veterans with post traumatic stress to the gun range as a way of bonding with and mentoring them."

As "HIS" way of bonding and mentoring. That in no way indicates that it was the correct way or the safe way. As your article states, "*PTSD is very commonly associated with a number of other conditions that are regularly attached to violence . . .". A proper and complete diagnosis would be the first step in determining the type of treatment deemed safe and effective.

Was Kyle qualified to make these determinations? We don't know at this point; however, we do know that he showed great hubris. This type of arrogance and bravado can become a fault that leads to poor decisions that a more humble person may not have made.

His "hubris" being a contributing factor to putting him in danger is a reasonable conclusion and certainly not uninformed.
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
"But in that backroom or whatever it is when God confronts me with my sins, I do not believe any of the kills I had during the war will be among them. Everyone I shot was evil. I had good cause on every shot. They all deserved to die."

You just can't make it up.

Sure you can. At least he and/or his superiors did.

Very likely that if he did not have 100% full faith in these beliefs then he would not have been accurate and effective in following his perceived ROE's.
Unfortunately, this is the ugly side of the sometimes necessary mind programing necessary to get humans to act as killing machines.

Judging him for his mindset and actions is in a crude way like judging a pit bull that was trained by humans to be a killing machine.*
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I'm sure that the totally oblivious individual who made the following statement had absolutely no idea whatsoever of the inherent irony of it:

“Above all else, Chief Kyle was a unique individual and an amazingly loving father, husband, son, brother, friend and devout Christian who had a profound effect on the lives of those he touched,” he said.

Young: 'American sniper' cut down by sick vet he helped - Conservative News

Yeah ... profound effect indeed ...
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Judging him for his mindset and actions is in a crude way like judging a pit bull that was trained by humans to be a killing machine.*
The only way you can judge anyone about anything is by using their mindset and actions as the basis for judgement. Other than making stuff up, there are no other valid criteria for judging someone. The pit bull and the soldier are judged differently, because the pit bull has no moral compass and does not know right from wrong. A solder, regardless of how well trained, does.

But that quote was from his book, the same book where he also admitted to killing civilians who, in his own words, weren't even the enemy. He thought they were evil, though, because they were Muslim, and that was enough in his mind to make them evil.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Maybe he was convinced his targets were a threat to him and his fellow soldiers.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Correct me if I'm wrong. PTSD does not mean that you will have a violent outburst, nor is it likely. It is but one of a whole host of possible symptoms. Most sufferers of that disorder aren't violent time bombs.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Maybe, but he flatly stated otherwise in his book, that they weren't a threat and he knew they weren't a threat. Some were clearly threats, but others weren't.
 
Top