Stop It!

[jujubeans]

This "joke" says it better than I could put in words.

A powerful senator dies. His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
"Welcome to Heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."
"No problem, just let me in," says the guy.
"Well, I'd like to but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in Hell and one in Heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity."
"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in Heaven," says the senator.
"I'm sorry but we have our rules." And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to Hell.
The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a club and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him, everyone is very happy and in evening attire. They run to greet him, hug him, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people. They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster and caviar.
Also present is the Devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes.
They are having such a good time that, before he realizes it, it is time to go. Everyone gives him a big hug and waves while the elevator rises.
The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on Heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him. "Now it's time to visit Heaven." So 24 hours pass with the Senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns. "Well then, you've spent a day in Hell and another in Heaven. Now choose your eternity."
He reflects for a minute, then the senator answers, "Well, I would never have said it, I mean Heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in Hell.
So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to Hell. Now the doors of the elevator open and he is in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage. He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags. The Devil comes over to him and lays his arm on his neck.
"I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and club and we ate lobster and caviar and danced and had a great time. Now all there is, is a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable.
The Devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were
campaigning...Today you voted for us!"

 

[cheri1122]

Well, Hawk, you're right about having the choice to switch to a carrier that doesn't operate that way, (cause I did it), but it just seems that many of those who are horrified by the concept of Socialism are the same folks who defend the pooling of FSC as a reasonable practice.
I wish I could share your belief that relieving corporations of tax burdens would create more jobs, but I just can't. I think it would just create more opportunities for those at the top to amass more wealth, because fairness & sharing isn't in their vocabulary, apparently. Executive compensation that once was 35 times that of the lowest paid workers is now 450 times as much, while jobs have been eliminated and cut back - this is not a recipe for a healthy society, IMO. Greed is the root of all evil, and it's destroying the "American Dream" as surely as a crack epidemic.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Greed and Capitalism at its best....what these conservs in here are preaching...Capitalism takes advantage of the uneducated and weak and uses them to gain wealth and power....dog eat dog..the strong survive...to even suggest that the top dogs take less and give more to the workers...well stinks of sharing...can't have that.....those poor people will just have to stand up and fight with those at the top....

Thats why they call it a DREAM....

 

[cheri1122]

The "American Dream" has always been centered around providing for your family: a comfortable (if modest) home, college for your offspring, an occasional (if not annual) vacation, and lastly, a comfortable retirement, free of financial strangulation, yes?
It used to be quite possible, if you were willing to work for it. It's not anymore - the 'WalMart' model of part time jobs with low pay and benefits that most can't afford has become the rule, rather than the exception. Even prosperous companies will eliminate jobs to improve profits, (sometimes at the behest of the stockholders), because nothing is more important than the bottom line anymore.
I think most folks supported Obama in the hopes that this culture of greed & corruption can be reversed over time. Because if it isn't, the American Dream has become a nightmare.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

No, OVM, the dream comes in when giving money to impoverished ppl is supposed to lift up the economy. For the most part, ppl are poor because they CHOOSE to be poor. LBJ's Great Society only solidified that; as nice new government housing turned to crap within a few years, because the recipients of that housing held no regard for its upkeep. In the end, welfare, that was supposed to ease poverty, managed only to take dignity and work ethic away from millions.

Not all greed is evil, Cheri. Wanting a pay raise is greed. Buying a new truck is greed, when an old truck will do the same job. Driving your own truck, rather than sitting at a desk from 9 to 5 is greed. Also, those pharmaceutical companies don't make cures out of the goodness of their hearts; they do so out of greed. The UAW functions out of greed, to combat the greed of the automakers; even tho the UAW has never built one car.

So greed, in general, is what makes a society flourish. Greed on our part, puts ppl in office... like Obama. They promise us stuff and we elect them. Greed creates innovation. Greed makes ppl who would normally be complacent, achieve higher goals... betters them as a citizen. Greed created the car, the computer, skyscrapers, sports. Greed is the need to fulfill something that is missing. We could all survive in a tent, while eating wild berries and bugs. Greed put us in houses or apartments, and put steak and potatoes in our bellies.

Why worry about what the 'MAN' is making? Do you have the ability to do as well as he does, managing a multi-million, or billion dollar company? Wages depend on one thing... supply and demand. If you have talents that very few have, that would benefit a company, you get paid much more than what a common worker would earn. Yes, too much greed can devastate a company like Enron, while the officers get away (or not) with millions. Same could be said of the leaders of Fanny and Freddy, along with the members of Congress who fought to keep things as they were.

Isn't coveting something that isn't yours ENVY? Greed makes ppl rich, envy gets them into trouble.

 

[cheri1122]

Hawk, you seem to be confusing aspiration & ambition with greed: the former are positive values, whereas greed is excessive.
I care about what 'the Man' is making when he's making decisions to eliminate jobs to improve the bottom line, and consequently his own bonus. I mentioned the disparity in the earnings at the top vs the bottom to illustrate how far things have gone in the wrong direction - if management is doing such a great job, why is the country in such a financial mess? Why is unemployment at a 25 year high? (Hint: it's not because "people don't want to work!)
Judging by the number of companies filing for bankruptcy & lining up for the latest government bailout, I couldn't do much worse at running them than the present idiots, I bet.PS I'd strongly disagree that most poor folks want to be poor - when's the last time you looked for a job?

 

[Dabus1952]

HEY ROAD hooligan You are a good decent man.The thing that really gets me is they think everyone will be receiving a free welfare card.There are actually more Southern white states on Aid then the rest of the country.( I can state this by the way I am white )It is a proven fact.
i have never received a free handout, nor has anyone in my family.Everyone knows the poor and middle class have been supporting the sins of the rich for years,
You ever get up this way north of Chicago 50 miles look me up I will glad to buy you a cup of Coffee.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I didn't say that most poor ppl WANT to be poor; but that they CHOOSE to be. On the contrary, I would say most ppl want to be rich. Why aren't they? Answer that, and you've answered why most poor ppl stay poor.

BTW... there will ALWAYS be poor ppl in EVERY society. America is no different. Just that our poor are equivalent to most other countries' middle or upper class.

 

[cheri1122]

Agreed: the poor will always be with us - some folks are simply unemployable. A nephew of mine is one - he is a strong & handsome 19 year old male, with a mental disorder that has kept him from retaining the few jobs he's been able to get. He is simply incapable of functioning as a self sufficient adult. If you saw him on the street, you'd think him a perfectly healthy guy - so why does he come home crying uncontrollably after half a day on the job? No one knows, including himself. But until they figure it out, keeping a job is beyond his abilities.
But even among the physically and mentally capable, jobs that pay enough to be self sufficient simply don't exist in numbers equal to the need for them. And that is a direct result of the shortsighted, profit oriented decisions made at the top, IMO.
Where is the outrage at the taxpayer money being given to AIG, the insurance company? They mismanaged themselves into a crisis, but still paid millions to the executives, while lining up for the bailout Bush insisted was necessary.
Demanding that poor unsophisticated folks make good business decisions, while excusing the well educated professionals who get paid millions from the same responsibility is just backwards, don't you think?

 

[LDB]

You needn't worry. There is talk of a national salary cap. The problem will be solved once the messiah has been crowned.

 

[davekc]

Kudos to Cheri

Never would have put a correlation between the flat rate FSC and a "spread the wealth" philosophy.
Amazing how similar they are.
One could see how defending one could easily translate into defending the other.
We seen it here a year or so ago.
I believe that is what might be expected in the future?

 

[arrbsthw]

My, my, my looks like you people will be in for terrible 4 to 8 years.

He will probably waste your tax money on such foolish things as education, health care and such.

Apparently you feel that the majority of the American people are stupid for electing him.

Road Hooligan

Pretty much

 

[Tennesseahawk]

You needn't worry. There is talk of a national salary cap. The problem will be solved once the messiah has been crowned.

Don't worry, Leo. FDR tried a salary cap during his term. If Obama institutes it as well, we'll be chanting "12 MORE YEARS! 12 MORE YEARS!" when counting down how long the next depression will last.

Cheri... AIG was saved because it's the major underwriter for construction, plain and simple. We need construction; they do construction insurance.

As far as jobs sustaining a family, I look at flipping burgers for an example. An obvious minimum wage job, that was traditionally done by teenagers. Now we see seniors work there to supplement their SSI, and adults who are classic underachievers. I rarely see teens there anymore. Maybe they're home playing their XBox. But what I'm getting at is there are a lot of ADULTS out there who have given up trying to improve themselves. Do they deserve a tax break (welfare) if they don't put forth the effort, and strive to be better?

I agree with you about your nephew. I'm not anti-welfare for those like your nephew; but I am anti-welfare leeches... those who are just too lazy to get a job. I believe, like most conservatives, that most ppl don't need a handout, but a hand up.

I also believe that not everyone is cut out for college. And those who receive government assistance should for college should hold a job while going to college; and not use it as an excuse to stay on welfare.

BTW, Cheri... did you figure out the answer to the question about staying poor?

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Hooligan... waste money on education? As of the 2006 census, we spend over $9000 per student, per year. How much more will it take to make our kids smarter? LOL

Currently, my wife and I spend $350/month to send our daughter to a private school in Michigan. That's $3150 for the whole school year for a better education than she can get in public schools. Her class size is 17, as compared to 30-40 in a traditional public school class.

Where is that extra $6000 going?

Better yet, let's look at the cost per class. I'll be kind and say public school class has 30 students. My daughter's class costs $53,550 per year. A comparable class in the public school system costs $270,000 per year. Yet my daughter gets a better education, has a smaller class size; and therefore gets better one-on-one instruction; and we have no fear for her safety. She is taught morals and discipline, as well as religion (something I wasn't originally happy about), and not about how to put on a condom.

Ok... off the soapbox. That's a difference of around $220,000 per teacher (class), per year. Where is the quality? What is your kid getting in a public school, that mine isn't in a private school, that justifies that much of a difference in spending???

And you want them to do health care??? Please tell me you're joking.

 

[Dabus1952]

I dont know the standards in other states for money for the public school ststems.Here in the Chicago area the suburban schools receive more in Goverment money.The city schools lack in resourses.Therefore the work load on teachers is higher in the city.Should your class have 30 to 35 kids.Tell me how you can give them a good education.
The community I live in has built 8 new schools in the last 7 years.Our schools are state of the Art.Our public school system is as good as any private school ,And in many cases better.Our music programs are 2nd to none.Sports and so on.
As a young man growing up in the city of Chicago,We had none of this.Did it make you worse off in someways yes, but to be fair in comparision in those days in Chicago there were plenty of Jobs.
Today younger people are entering a world after college,that dont have much to offer.(job Wise )We as parents preach education is the key to sucess.yet what can we offer our young people?They are paying for your sins my sins and the sins of folks in DC who we trusted to work for us.
Good old fashion greed comes into play.The almighty dollar.I read these post about oh there going to spread my wealt.No my freind your going to pay your fair share of taxes if your rich. Not all these breaks for wealt.I would rather be around middle class working people or as they say the working class poor people.Then a bunch of weathy, ignorant , group of people who thinks there better than everyone else.For peats sakes some of you folks are still fighting the cival war.GET OVER IT.Move On.

 

[layoutshooter]

We had 56 in my 8th grade graduating class. No problems. Most went on to college or good jobs. A quiet class room. By the way, those 56 were in one room. There were 45 in the other room. Guess teachers today just can't hack it. Not allowed to "wield the ruller" as needed. Might hurt the "little darlin's" self-esteem. Class size is of no importance if disipline and education are a priority. Parents need to be involed. BOTH of them. Layoutshooter

 

[LDB]

How much is a fair share? Would it not be the same percentage regardless of who the "sharer" is? You listen to all this krap about all these tax breaks for the rich and you think they aren't paying their fair share when even after those liberal talking point tax breaks they are still paying huge sums. Why shouldn't everyone pay the same percentage? And how in satan's name can you find any talk of telling one person they have too much so they must give some to some other person in any way just? If that's the case can we tell every pro sports person that anything they're paid above $250,000 goes into a pool to be distributed to others? A quarter million is plenty of money per year for anyone, especially for playing instead of working. Nobody should get to make more than the president anyway. Any salary/bonus plan above that should be cut to that level. The rest goes into the pool. Of course we can trust and count on the government to do the right thing with it and handle it properly. There's definitely some waking up needed but not where some believe it to be.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I have no problem paying my fair share... when it's fair. But when they continuously take our money, and have no accountability, like education for example, it makes me sick.

DC schools avg $12,000 per student, yet have some of the worst results in the country. I'm asking WHY? They aren't preparing those kids for college, let alone life! My guess is most of those kids are being prepared to become leeches on the system; either thru welfare, or prison. Why is nothing done to prevent that? Because they are being groomed, in part, to vote Democrat. Don't believe me? Look at the demographics of the party. Look at who they have in the bag every election, yet never try to improve their situation.

I feel bad for those who are forced to live in areas where the schools are crap. They have no alternative, if they have to work and cannot homeschool their kids. I hope that what Obama means by 'empowering the people' is to give them say in how their kids are schooled. But I'm sure all it is is redistribution of wealth. Oops... there's that term again.

But what do you do when whole cities have given up on themselves? I guess you just keep throwing money at them, and hope they'll keep voting for your party.

 

[layoutshooter]

Gee, they can always do what Americans, my family included, have always done when things were not right in the area where they lived, they moved. Some just up and left everything behind. Why? Looking for a better life. Not just sitting on thier collective butts.
There are no valid excuses once your an adult. You have choice. You choose your outcome. When the Jews were being persicuted by the Nazis and most education was stopped they met it cellers and back rooms to insure that thier children learned. Back in much older times England outlawed education for large numbers of surfs in Ireland. They educated thier children often hiding behind hedge rows. I you want it you can have it. I guess todays people just have no gumption. Layoutshooter

 

[Dabus1952]

This will be my last posting on this subject .The election is over and its time to move in a foward direction.I may not agree with you, nor you with me,but that is ok.That is why we live in the Unitied States Of America
I am not mad at you for beleiving in your canidate.I actually felt he gave a gracous speech, after he got Whipped.Not Beat but Whipped over 2 to 1 in popular votes. And delegates.
Anyone with half a bit of common sence would have distanced himself from George Bush After the last 8 years.
Your VP is already flapping her jaws. She will be the next President Lol LOL.
How could you think that these two could unite a country when they couldnt get along.
So its time to move forward , hope for the best.Maybe things will even improve for all you rich Drivers whom seem to be on this forum.We all know you werent fearful nor ignorant or racist because most of you never came right out and said it.Tonight when you go in the restroom please look yourself in the mirror and tell youself that.You sure didnt sell me nor many others on here.Peace be with you all.