Is Obama scared? Racist?

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I made it my business to know my rights, rather than be told them by government. Just because it's "easier for all involved" to have an ID, doesn't make it law. And just because the majority think that's the way it should be means two things... they are ignorant and complacent.

...Or, have a view of governance that has the government "in charge" and defining rights rather than the People defining and enumerating their powers. I think you'd be surprised at how many believe that, and how many--even on this forum--think that's how it should be.

Then again, the Redcoats had their defenders in the colonies.
--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The STATES do have 'Rights'. What are they? Would not residency laws be among them? We are not speaking of a 'national ID', only state. Does the state have the right to require proof of state citizenship for voting purposes? How do you do that? How do you insure that person who is voting only votes once? How do you insure that person voting meets the residency requirements that the state puts forward for voting?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
No, it doesn't depend on the state. My business is not the State's business, anywhere in the country...
Your business isn't the State's business, as long as you don't want to do business with the State. You can say STOP signs aren't red, because you don't want them to be, but it won't change the fact that STOP signs are, in reality, red.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I contend that the STATES have a duty to, the best of their ability, to insure the integrity of the election process.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Now if they give you a scanning card or something, that'll only let you vote one time per card, I can agree to that... as long as it doesn't produce identification. But your argument comes back to licensing your rights.
Well, OK, but then so does your argument, you're simply arguing for a different place and time for the licensing. You'll still have to show ID to get that scanning card or something. Except, of course, voting is not a right, despite the popular belief.

Yes, it's common sense just to pop out your ID. But we're making things too easy for the government these days, in the name of convenience. They don't need no stinkin ID. Let them work for it, if it's that important to them.
I don't know about easy or convenient, or what they state prefers or what you or anyone else prefers, I only know that I don't want people voting who are ineligible to vote, and it's the individual states which set the rules for eligibility, not the federal government. There is no Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote, and the states can absolutely withhold the ability to vote from people who do not meet a state's rules of eligibility.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Well, OK, but then so does your argument, you're simply arguing for a different place and time for the licensing. You'll still have to show ID to get that scanning card or something. Except, of course, voting is not a right, despite the popular belief.

I don't know about easy or convenient, or what they state prefers or what you or anyone else prefers, I only know that I don't want people voting who are ineligible to vote, and it's the individual states which set the rules for eligibility, not the federal government. There is no Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote, and the states can absolutely withhold the ability to vote from people who do not meet a state's rules of eligibility.

The Nineteenth Amendment (Amendment XIX) to the United States Constitution prohibits any United States citizen to be denied the right to vote based on sex.

How do you figure it's a privilege?
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Actually, I'm on the fence over this. Common sense tells me that it's as simple as using IDs to vote. And it is.

The Libertarian in me says it's none of their freakin business. That just because some riff raff wants to test the system, it shouldn't interrupt my liberty.

I have to side with liberty. It's the duty of government to find a way that does not conflict with my rights and liberty.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
An ID requirement to vote is not an infringement on liberty. No one is required to vote. If one makes the choice to not participate in the system there is no need for an ID. Of course, you cannot drive, cash checks, buy a hunting or fishing license or take part in anything that the state is involved in. The integrity of the voting system is paramount to the survival of the Republic.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Your business isn't the State's business, as long as you don't want to do business with the State. You can say STOP signs aren't red, because you don't want them to be, but it won't change the fact that STOP signs are, in reality, red.

That's not even close to being analogous, except in that I can tell the State they're violating my rights but as long as they have guts with uniforms and guns who obey judges orders, it's not going to change.

Now, I agree with you in this, and with somebody I saw below: the states do have a responsibility to ensure reliable elections. That means getting rid of the election machines, but it also means ensuring that only people qualified to vote do so, and only once. In the absence of something better, I say, photo ID, but hopefully we can come up with something better.

Then again, being that there's almost never any candidate who will uphold the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights, there's never anybody to vote for. On the rare occasions some candidate does purpose to do that, you see what happens to him, so the voting aspect is kind of a moot issue to begin with.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I have to side with liberty. It's the duty of government to find a way that does not conflict with my rights and liberty.

Yes, this and every other such possible "necessary" intrusion. Forex, it's their duty to find a way to conduct a census without pretending they have a right to compel me to answer their questionnaire. It's their duty to find a way to see to it that violent felons don't get guns without pretending to be able to regulate me and mine. It's their duty to find a way to see to it that prospective drivers are competent without violating my right to privacy our imposing a form of ID card. If it's their job to regulate truckers, it's their duty to do so without tracking me or even impeding my movement absent probable cause and a warrant.

Anything they can't do without violating my rights is something they can't do, no exceptions.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
An ID requirement to vote is not an infringement on liberty. No one is required to vote. If one makes the choice to not participate in the system there is no need for an ID. Of course, you cannot drive, cash checks, buy a hunting or fishing license or take part in anything that the state is involved in. The integrity of the voting system is paramount to the survival of the Republic.

I don't have a requirement to pray either, but I can if I want WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS from the government.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Yes, this and every other such possible "necessary" intrusion. Forex, it's their duty to find a way to conduct a census without pretending they have a right to compel me to answer their questionnaire. It's their duty to find a way to see to it that violent felons don't get guns without pretending to be able to regulate me and mine. It's their duty to find a way to see to it that prospective drivers are competent without violating my right to privacy our imposing a form of ID card. If it's their job to regulate truckers, it's their duty to do so without tracking me or even impeding my movement absent probable cause and a warrant.

Anything they can't do without violating my rights is something they can't do, no exceptions.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.

Only problem with your trucker analogy is this... I am begging the government (asking for a license) to drive a truck. I am taking part in interstate commerce, which is federally regulated; and therefore, I must be beholden to them.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I don't have a requirement to pray either, but I can if I want WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS from the government.


Then you don't need an ID to pray! LOL!!:p

Tell me, what is a valid state function? I contend that insuring the integrity of the voting process is one. What are your thoughts?
 

clcooper

Expert Expediter
Yes, this and every other such possible "necessary" intrusion. Forex, it's their duty to find a way to conduct a census without pretending they have a right to compel me to answer their questionnaire. It's their duty to find a way to see to it that violent felons don't get guns without pretending to be able to regulate me and mine. It's their duty to find a way to see to it that prospective drivers are competent without violating my right to privacy our imposing a form of ID card. If it's their job to regulate truckers, it's their duty to do so without tracking me or even impeding my movement absent probable cause and a warrant.

Anything they can't do without violating my rights is something they can't do, no exceptions.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.

it is as much your job as it is their job .
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The Nineteenth Amendment (Amendment XIX) to the United States Constitution prohibits any United States citizen to be denied the right to vote based on sex.

How do you figure it's a privilege?
I never said it was a privilege. A privilege is something that can be taken away for any reason, or even no reason at all. I'm merely stating that there is no Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote. Read Post #24 again. It's still true. The 19th Amendment doesn't guarantee someone the right to vote, it merely defines one of the reasons which cannot be used to deny one the right to vote ("The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."). One cannot be denied the right to vote because of gender, but they can be denied the right to vote based on other reasons. Those reasons, if any, are created by the individual states, and as long as they are not in conflict with the Constitution, they can use them to deny someone to vote.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It may be implicit, but it's not explicit, and there's a huge difference between the two, both in legal terms and practical terms. Implicit allows for interpretative inferences, explicit does not. The link you supplied doesn't show a Constitutionally guaranteed the right to vote, it merely restates precisely what I've been saying, that the right to vote is determined by the states, not the federal government or the Constitution, and the Constitution only lists ways in which people cannot be denied the right to vote.

In Post #24 I stated, "The Constitution never explicitly ensures the right to vote (as it does the right to speech, for example)." I don't know how that sentence can confuse anyone, or even be disagreed with, because it's irrefutably true.

I can re-type it really slow if that'll help. :D
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
It may be implicit, but it's not explicit, and there's a huge difference between the two, both in legal terms and practical terms.
Indeed.

Implicit allows for interpretative inferences, explicit does not.
Clearly that's not true - since the example you reference below (the right to free speech) as being explicit, is not absolute and has been open to interpretation.

The link you supplied doesn't show a Constitutionally guaranteed the right to vote,
Actually, it does .... just not an explicit one.

Like I said: it is not an absolute (or unqualified and unconditional) right ... nevertheless, it is still a right of citizenship.

And the Constitution guarantees it to the extent that the Constitution defines those things by reason of which the right may not be denied.

it merely restates precisely what I've been saying, that the right to vote is determined by the states,
No ..... it shows the restrictions or qualifications on the right to vote are determined by the states ....

not the federal government or the Constitution,
If the above were actually true, then the following would not be [mutually exclusive]:

".... and the Constitution only lists ways in which people cannot be denied the right to vote."

In Post #24 I stated, "The Constitution never explicitly ensures the right to vote (as it does the right to speech, for example)." I don't know how that sentence can confuse anyone, or even be disagreed with, because it's irrefutably true.
I'm not confused by it, nor do I disagree - it's just that it's irrelevant to what I said.

Additionally, the above introduces an inapplicable (ie explicitness) into our discussion.

I can re-type it really slow if that'll help. :D
Our difference is one of view, or perhaps understanding.

I believe I understand what you are saying - and generally I have no issue with any of it, save for the one specific assertion I referenced in my initial post for the reasons stated.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Implicit allows for interpretative inferences, explicit does not.
Clearly that's not true - since the example you reference below (the right to free speech) as being explicit, is not absolute and has been open to interpretation.
You're not reading what I'm stating. I never said "absolute", and I never said not open to interpretation (with "interpretation" being a subject noun), I said "interpretative inferences" (with inferences being the subject noun, and "interpretative" being an adjective describing the inferences). Allow me to explain.

Implicit means something is not stated outright, and is instead implied, hinted, suggested. The very nature of an implication (how something is stated) means it must be inferred (how it is taken to be meant) in order to even be understood. When something is implied, or implicit, it can be inferred to mean many different things, some may even be incorrect. This is not true for an explicit statement, as an explicit statement can only be inferred exactly as stated.

The right to free speech is explicitly stated in the Constitution and is not open to interpretation. There is no "implied" anything. You cannot infer something different than what it states. It states quite plainly that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. That means, quite explicitly, that you have freedom of speech, to say whatever you want, and that Congress cannot pass any laws abridging it in any way. You cannot infer from that to mean something other than what is stated.

In several cases over the years the Supreme Court and others have ruled that certain permissible limitations on free speech is consistent with the terms of the Constitution, but they have in no way interpreted the free speech clause to mean anything other than what it explicitly states. Their rulings never said, in effect, "Well, the free speech clause actually means [this or that]", they have all said, in effect, "[This law or that law] does not conflict with the explicit statement of the Constitution regarding freedom of speech."

The link you supplied doesn't show a Constitutionally guaranteed the right to vote,
Actually, it does .... just not an explicit one.
Everything I've stated with respect to the Constitution and the right to vote has been in the context of what I stated in Post #24, which is in the context of an explicit one. You've introduced "implicit" as a straw man to change the premise and the context of my statements. In order to find a Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote within the link you supplied, one must infer certain things that are not stated outright, they must read between the lines, so to speak, and see things that are not there. It's no different than stating the Constitution provides no explicit guaranteed right to privacy. It doesn't. It's not in there anywhere. One can certainly infer that it's in there, especially since the entire document implicitly screams the right to privacy, but it's not in there just the same.

Like I said: it is not an absolute (or unqualified and unconditional) right ... nevertheless, it is still a right of citizenship.
I never said it wasn't a right of citizenship. I simply said the Constitution never explicitly states that it's a right.

And the Constitution guarantees it to the extent that the Constitution defines those things by reason of which the right may not be denied.
That's certainly one way to look at it, but you're inferring what the Constitution probably says, rather than what it actually says. Guaranteeing the right to vote itself is not the same as guaranteeing under which conditions you cannot be denied the right to vote, even though they may seem to be de facto one in the same. There's a reason the Constitution leaves the questions of the right to vote up to the States.

it [your link] merely restates precisely what I've been saying, that the right to vote is determined by the states,
No ..... it shows the restrictions or qualifications on the right to vote are determined by the states ....
Which is precisely what I said in Post #24.

not the federal government or the Constitution,
If the above were actually true, then the following would not be [mutually exclusive]:

".... and the Constitution only lists ways in which people cannot be denied the right to vote."
Well, when you take the statement as a whole and split it into different quotes and have it all out of the context of my statement of explicit and put it into the context of implicit, yeah, sure it wouldn't be true. I'll give ya that.

I'm not confused by it, nor do I disagree - it's just that it's irrelevant to what I said.
I know it it's irrelevant to what you said. That's because you changed the context of the discussion by changing my premise to one you preferred (or possibly one you misunderstood it to be) and then used that to refute what I said. I think they call that a straw man argument.

Additionally, the above introduces an inapplicable (ie explicitness) into our discussion.
Excuse me? Who introduced what into this thread? I introduced explicit, and then you morphed that into implicit and then ran with it.

Our difference is one of view, or perhaps understanding.

I believe I understand what you are saying - and generally I have no issue with any of it, save for the one specific assertion I referenced in my initial post for the reasons stated.
I'm gonna go with a difference of understanding, and assume you did not read Post #24 and instead took the quote from Post #135 (where I restated in paraphrase what I had earlier stated in Post #24) out of context.

But just for giggles and to remove any misunderstanding, I'll state it again, slowly this time... :D

The Constitution contains many phrases, clauses, and amendments detailing ways people cannot be denied the right to vote, but it never explicitly states the right to vote. You cannot deny the right to vote because of race or gender. Citizens of Washington DC can vote for President; 18-year-olds can vote; you can vote even if you fail to pay a poll tax. The Constitution also requires that anyone who can vote for the "most numerous branch" of their state legislature can vote for House members and Senate members. The Constitution does require that Representatives be chosen and Senators be elected by "the People," and who comprises "the People" has been expanded by Constitutional Amendments several times. Aside from the aforementioned many phrases, clauses, and amendments detailing ways people cannot be denied the right to vote, the qualifications for voters are left to the states. And as long as the qualifications do not conflict with anything in the Constitution, that right can be withheld.

A Wiki page on Suffrage containing the same information that is found at the hypertext links in the paragraph above doesn't really refute the paragraph above, nor the statements within it.

So, in conclusion, I assert with great zealotry and unflappable confidence that the Constitution of these United States never once explicitly states the right to vote, and that other than the few restrictions and conditions explicitly expressed in the Constitution under which someone cannot be denied to vote, the qualifications for voters are left solely to the States.
 
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