Buddy Heater/Fantastic Fan

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Someone noted that the Espar heater is expensive. And it is, if you just look at the price of the unit installed. If, however, you do a cost analysis over several years, it becomes quite cheap. It is hands down the most cost effective way to heat a van, Sprinter, or Sprinter wannabe.

Yes, in a cost analysis the Espar wins with no remotely close second place winner.

I'll give the two of you convenient, safe, hassle-free, space saving, efficient, odorless, super neat-o and similar adjectives, but cheaper ain't one of them.

A Big Buddy heater can be had for $129. Cheaper off season like late spring, early summer. Northern Hydraulics usually has a $25 off coupon card in their fall catalog. A 12' hose is about $25, a filter $10 and a new 20# tank about $30. A person could be up and cooking for about $200.

Liquid propane is cheaper than highway use diesel but also a bit less efficient. LP has about 91,000 BTUs per gallon compare to diesel at 128,000 BTU's per gallon. I recently had two 20# tanks filled for $26 and change. That's $2.76/gallon.

Mr. Heater recommends changing the filter every year. It probably wouldn't hurt to replace the hose every few years. Even if a Big Buddy only lasted 5 years you could throw it away and buy 10 more for the price of an Espar. Put that in your cost analysis calculator. I'm not knocking Espar and my next van will have one, probably gasoline fired. I don't believe an Espar is cheaper than running a Big Buddy on bulk propane.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I'll give the two of you convenient, safe, hassle-free, space saving, efficient, odorless, super neat-o and similar adjectives, but cheaper ain't one of them.

A Big Buddy heater can be had for $129. Cheaper off season like late spring, early summer. Northern Hydraulics usually has a $25 off coupon card in their fall catalog. A 12' hose is about $25, a filter $10 and a new 20# tank about $30. A person could be up and cooking for about $200.

Liquid propane is cheaper than highway use diesel but also a bit less efficient. LP has about 91,000 BTUs per gallon compare to diesel at 128,000 BTU's per gallon. I recently had two 20# tanks filled for $26 and change. That's $2.76/gallon.

Mr. Heater recommends changing the filter every year. It probably wouldn't hurt to replace the hose every few years. Even if a Big Buddy only lasted 5 years you could throw it away and buy 10 more for the price of an Espar. Put that in your cost analysis calculator. I'm not knocking Espar and my next van will have one, probably gasoline fired. I don't believe an Espar is cheaper than running a Big Buddy on bulk propane.


I have 3 Big Buddy's at home ALL with clogged lines from oil residue from propane tanks...tip them upside down and it just runs out...WAS I the only one that suffered from this?.....even with a filter on....
 
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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
There's also the space factor of a loaf of bread vs. 2 20# propane tanks plus however big the Buddy heater is, never (theoretically) running out of fuel vs. running out in the middle of the night, during a storm, etc. that Murphy seems to always arrange for propane tanks, the convenience of not having to find somewhere to fill propane and make a special trip with those added costs and other factors to consider and add to the equation.

Note, I am not dissing anyone using propane, just conversing and pointing out thoughts as they occur.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I'll give the two of you convenient, safe, hassle-free, space saving, efficient, odorless, super neat-o and similar adjectives, but cheaper ain't one of them.
"Cheaper" and "cost effective" aren't necessarily the same thing. In the case of a heater, cost effective means taking into considerations things like, you're not supposed to operate the propane heater while the heater is unattended, or while you are sleeping, you're supposed to disconnect the propane tanks from the heater when the heater is not running, and anything larger than a 1 lb bottle is supposed to be placed outdoors (in most states it's illegal to operate propane tanks larger than 1 pound if stored inside an enclosed space, residence, or a vehicle). Not having to deal with the "mess with it" factor adds cost effectiveness to the Espar.

A Big Buddy heater can be had for $129. Cheaper off season like late spring, early summer. Northern Hydraulics usually has a $25 off coupon card in their fall catalog. A 12' hose is about $25, a filter $10 and a new 20# tank about $30. A person could be up and cooking for about $200.
I agree - a $200 Big Buddy installation is cheaper than a $2000 Espar Airtronic heater installation.

Liquid propane is cheaper than highway use diesel but also a bit less efficient. LP has about 91,000 BTUs per gallon compare to diesel at 128,000 BTU's per gallon. I recently had two 20# tanks filled for $26 and change. That's $2.76/gallon.
Wherever you're getting your tanks filled, I'd be wearing that place out. The national average for residential propane is $2.964 (as of 1/20/14) and the refill retail price (at gas stations and truck stops) is currently $3.49 a gallon.

But the BTU of the fuel is only a small part of the equation. The BTU and efficiency of the heater itself is a bigger factor. The MH18B Big Buddy puts out 18,000 BTUs on high, while the Airtronic D4 puts out 10,200 BTUs. Efficient heating is about air flow and heat distribution, and the Mr Buddy is primarily a radiant heat heater. Even with it's snazzy blower motor running off the 4 D cell batteries, Mr Buddy only moves about 12 CFM, whereas the forced-air Airtronic D4 moves 69 CFM (the D2 moves 40 CFM). That makes the 10,200 BTUs of the Espar far more efficient than the 18,000 of the Mr Buddy. And it is shown in fuel consumption.

An empty 20 pound propane tank will hold 4.7 gallons (which is why it's way better to refill your 20 pound tanks than it is to exchange them for the typically 15 pound refills). On high, two 20 lb propane tanks will last about 50 hours. That's 9.4 gallons per 50 hours. The Airtronic will use .10 gallons per hour on high, so 5 gallons. At $3.87 diesel that's $19.35. At only $2.76 a gallon for propane, that's $25.94, and at the $3.49 a gallon retail price it's $32.81. So rounding off at $30 versus $20 for 50 hours on high, the Espar is cheaper to operate per hour. 60 cents versus 40 cents an hour. I've got 20,000 hours on my Espar heater. That's a $4000 savings in fuel costs.

Most people don't run their Mr Buddy heaters on high for 50 hours straight (though these last couple of weeks they may have), and they will average 140 hours on two 20 lb tanks (yes, I know, some will get more hours, and some will get less). The same is true for the Espar, where most of it's time is spent on Low and Medium settings. In my case, of the 20,000 hours, more than 9,000 have been on Low which uses .03 gallons per hour. Over 140 hours that's 4.2 gallons ($16.25 @ $3.87), versus the 9.4 gallons of propane ($28.2 @ $3.00 a gallon).

20,000 hours divided by 140 hours is 142.857 times $16.25 is $2321.43 for the Espar, and is $4028.57 for the Mr Buddy. That's a difference of $1707. That's about the difference between the initial costs of the setups.

Once you start factoring in the time involved with the "mess with it" factor, the cutting corners of sleeping while it's running, the storing of the tank inside the vehicle, and having to disconnect the lines from the heater when it's not running, compared to the no-muss no-fuss, no-brainer ease-of-use of the Espar, and the cost effectiveness begins to take on a new meaning.

Mr. Heater recommends changing the filter every year. It probably wouldn't hurt to replace the hose every few years. Even if a Big Buddy only lasted 5 years you could throw it away and buy 10 more for the price of an Espar. Put that in your cost analysis calculator. I'm not knocking Espar and my next van will have one, probably gasoline fired. I don't believe an Espar is cheaper than running a Big Buddy on bulk propane.
In this thread ( http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/truck-talk/60272-espar-heater-20-000-hours-counting.html ) detailed my usage, along with detailed costs involved, including all repair costs. People can do the same with a Mr Buddy or whatever heating method they like. I encourage people to do so. Because math is fun!
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Note, I am not dissing anyone using propane, just conversing and pointing out thoughts as they occur.
I agree. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using propane. It's an excellent, proven method of heating. There are pros and cons to every heating method. After weighing all the pros and cons of each, I simply settled on the Espar, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind.
 

RoadTime

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
After this winter an Espar is top on my list for next season but until then I do love my big buddy. I normally run it on low which gets me around 65° inside. I only use high for a quick heat up high is just way too hot. Currently using the one pounders which will give me nine hours at a time (using two) so I don't find that too inconvenient, just have to plan accordingly. Only thing I really don't like with using the one pounders is the last 10 to 15 minutes as it's going empty and the output is decreased and the temperature will dropped like 5-10° during that time. That wasn't really noticeable until these extreme cold temperatures rolled in. Also at about $.70 an hour not the most desirable amount I want to pay for heat with the one pounders. But it will have to do for now. I'm still on the fence about getting the bigger tank for it. ---Sidenote I find that the built-in heater is not that great and goes through batteries way too fast. I find that using just a regular battery powered fan that you get at the truck stop works a lot better to circulate the heat and last a lot longer. Hopefully this will be the last season I'll have to be using this :)
 

ntimevan

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Roadtime ...if you have the quick connect feature on your big buddy ...for around $ 30. You can have the 12 ft hose with the regulator attached to it ....then use the bigger tanks ....pays for the investment back quickly over 1 lb. tanks at 2 a night......Mills Farm & Fleet ...:thumbup:

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Roadtime ...if you have the quick connect feature on your big buddy ...for around $ 30. You can have the 12 ft hose with the regulator attached to it ....then use the bigger tanks ....pays for the investment back quickly over 1 lb. tanks at 2 a night......Mills Farm & Fleet ...:thumbup:
I would agree. If I had a propane heater, the first two 1-pound bottles would be the last ones I'd buy. I'd live on the edge with two 20-pound tanks inside the vehicle, 'cause they'd pay for themselves in a matter of days. An Espar is more cost effective than propane, but 20-pouind tanks is way more cost effective than 1-pound bottles.
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
I would agree. If I had a propane heater, the first two 1-pound bottles would be the last ones I'd buy. I'd live on the edge with two 20-pound tanks inside the vehicle, 'cause they'd pay for themselves in a matter of days. An Espar is more cost effective than propane, but 20-pouind tanks is way more cost effective than 1-pound bottles.
we have been running around with propane tanks on our RV for years and years...dont see what the concern is??
 

vanman10x2

Seasoned Expediter
Owner/Operator
Roadtime, it's the last year for my big buddy also, but it sure has served me well until now when it's this cold.

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aquitted

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Hey speaking of Buddy heaters I also have one for my sleeper. I have been trying to refill the little bottles from the 20# tank.and it doesn't seem to fill when I open the valve on the 20#er. do you have to hold the 20#er upside down or something?
 

ntimevan

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Hey speaking of Buddy heaters I also have one for my sleeper. I have been trying to refill the little bottles from the 20# tank.and it doesn't seem to fill when I open the valve on the 20#er. do you have to hold the 20#er upside down or something?

Are you kidding ....refilling 1 lb. disposable .....I heard standing on head may help .....lol

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
we have been running around with propane tanks on our RV for years and years...dont see what the concern is??
Do you store and operate the tanks while the tanks are inside the RV, or are they stored outside the RV? The concern is the laws in nearly every state say that "DOT cylinders are required to be located on the front of the trailer A-frames or in the compartments that are sealed off from the RV's interior."

The concern for a tank in an enclosed space should be obvious, as cracked hose or faulty tanks and relief valves can leak propane gas, and can explode with sparked by an electrical source or other ignition source. Also, propane gas is heavier than air and will sink. You can certainly smell propane gas, but when you go to sleep the very first sense that you lose is the sense of smell, and it's the last sense that you regain when waking up (which is why so many people die in their sleep from smoke inhalation during a house fire when they otherwise could have gotten out just fine).

If I were to use propane tanks inside the van, or even a propane heater with the tanks stored outside the van, I'd sure have a 12-volt propane detector installed.
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Like that's gonna matter if a tank catch's fire or explodes. You ever seen those walls lol.

sent from my Fisher Price - ABC123
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
I turn the tank off when not using it...its secured to the floor...

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asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Like that's gonna matter if a tank catch's fire or explodes. You ever seen those walls lol.

sent from my Fisher Price - ABC123

When was the last time you ever hear of a propane tank exploding?? Even catching fire?? Sure it is possible...and happens...I am sleeping on top of 32 gallons of very flammable gasoline too...I hear of cars/trucks catching fire more than propane explosions...I think driving in general with all of these aholes texting is more dangerous...nothing is safe..

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mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Several years ago I saw an RV trailer go up after a propane tank explosion. Mounting the tank outside didn't seem to help the outcome much for the trailer.

Fire is one of the risks we take when we use fuel-- of any kind-- to keep warm and keep our vehicles moving. Some fuels are riskier by nature than others, but anything that burns can get out of control and make big problems. Cars have gasoline tanks and big trucks have diesel, and if you've ever seen a car or a large truck on fire you know that burning fuel doesn't leave much behind once it gets going. It all has to be treated with respect, and maintenance of your heating equipment-- regardless of what you use-- can't be stressed enough.
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Several years ago I saw an RV trailer go up after a propane tank explosion. Mounting the tank outside didn't seem to help the outcome much for the trailer.

Fire is one of the risks we take when we use fuel-- of any kind-- to keep warm and keep our vehicles moving. Some fuels are riskier by nature than others, but anything that burns can get out of control and make big problems. Cars have gasoline tanks and big trucks have diesel, and if you've ever seen a car or a large truck on fire you know that burning fuel doesn't leave much behind once it gets going. It all has to be treated with respect, and maintenance of your heating equipment-- regardless of what you use-- can't be stressed enough.
well said...................
 
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