Baltimore Rioting, Looting OK According to Mayor

paullud

Veteran Expediter
There's really no point. Conclusions drawn from statistics are opinions. If I post something that states the opposite of what you believe the statistics to mean, you'll either dismiss it or find some fault with it. But when you see the raw statistics of the crime rates in poor back neighborhoods versus poor white neighborhoods, and see they're virtually the same, traditional conclusions must be questioned. Factor in the white bias of already believing that blacks commit a much higher percentage of crime than they actually commit, and that will influence the conclusions drawn from statistics. Further factor in the biased policing that goes on in black neighborhoods and the statistics begin to show something other than the traditional conclusions. But here's a study from The Ohio State University for you to discredit or dismiss.

As is noted in this piece, "There is no way in this country to discuss crime statistics without including in that discussion the myriad ways in which those statistics are informed and influenced by the systemic effects of racial distortion." And that's hard to do when 70% of white Americans believe the criminal justice system is color blind, and that there are no racial biases whatysoever in law enforcement, much less any kind of systemic bias.

That study isn't the opposite of what I believe, it's actually exactly what I expected. The stats prove that blacks are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime and that's not really a debatable point. The stats I used are based solely on race and that's what my comment was limited to. It does not mean that blacks commit more crimes simply because they are black which is what the study you shared gets into. That's what I meant before when I said it seems like you guys are debating different topics and aren't actually on the same page.

The article I posted mentioned that it's difficult to compare things on an equal level in poor neighborhoods based on race for the reasons listed in the study you posted. I don't think we will ever have a way to truly compare disadvantaged neighborhoods because there are mental conditioning issues at play as well which aren't likely in a white neighborhood. I believe that racism is still around and will never go away no matter what because there are different shades of people. I do not believe that it is at a point that it will stop a black person from being successful though and we have plenty of proof of that. Right now I think the biggest problem in black neighborhoods is fighting the feeling of defeat. We are still dealing with the after effects of racism and haven't made it far enough away where there is a feeling that success is available to those that strive for it. We will probably need another generation before the scars of the past fade.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
And like turtle said earlier, you'd be just as likely to pull a "Nugent" on yourself than actually shoot someone.
That's pretty presumptuous of both of you. You decided to take this discussion into personal insult territory, but neither of you have an inkling of my training, knowledge of, or capabilities with firearms.

I'll restate my point again: police and individual citizens have the right and responsibility to defend themselves against attacks from thugs, criminals and anyone else that intend to do them harm. The Baltimore police should have been given the leeway to defend themselves along with public and private property from attack by a mob of criminals. Instead, the criminals were given space to destroy by an ignorant and incompetent mayor.

One last thought: try throwing bricks at a police officer if you get pulled over for speeding and see what happens. Whether he's wearing a helmet and/or riot gear is irrelevant.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
That's pretty presumptuous of both of you. You decided to take this discussion into personal insult territory, but neither of you have an inkling of my training, knowledge of, or capabilities with firearms.
There was no insult. If you beat your chest and talk like Rambo, you open yourself up to criticism. Fact is, most people panic when suddenly confronted, and things rarely go the way they envision it. But you're right, I don't know about your training and capabilities with a gun. So, just how much experience have you had with being attacked, and how many people have you killed in self-defense?

I'll restate my point again: police and individual citizens have the right and responsibility to defend themselves against attacks from thugs, criminals and anyone else that intend to do them harm. The Baltimore police should have been given the leeway to defend themselves along with public and private property from attack by a mob of criminals. Instead, the criminals were given space to destroy by an ignorant and incompetent mayor.
The police did, in fact, defend themselves during the riot. DId you not see that on the news?

One last thought: try throwing bricks at a police officer if you get pulled over for speeding and see what happens. Whether he's wearing a helmet and/or riot gear is irrelevant.
Oh, wow, yet another irrelevant context.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
That might indeed be the case for someone unfamiliar with firearms and who has very little or no training with handguns. I'm still waiting to hear how others - especially BS Boy - would defend themselves from threats of serious personal injury or death.

Some of us are savvy enough to know that no matter what we think we might do, there's no way to know for sure until/unless it happens. Some people [even big strong male people] who were familiar with firearms and had plenty of training found themselves unable to shoot a person when push came to shove. I bet none of them thought that would happen, just as you don't think it would happen. They were wrong, and you could be too.
As Turtle pointed out, you want to judge the rioters and cops in a vacuum - as if there's no history or context to what happened, but that's extremely myopic. It's like the difference between a woman killing her spouse for the insurance money, and one who kills after being battered and abused for many years: the result is the same, but the motivation makes a great deal of difference.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Posting silly memes and self-portraits doesn't really help, though.
True, but it can be entertaining. They is something about this picture that reminds me of my carrier of choice.
.
Krazy%20Kat%204_zpscorvft64.jpg
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
The article I posted mentioned that it's difficult to compare things on an equal level in poor neighborhoods based on race for the reasons listed in the study you posted. I don't think we will ever have a way to truly compare disadvantaged neighborhoods because there are mental conditioning issues at play as well which aren't likely in a white neighborhood. I believe that racism is still around and will never go away no matter what because there are different shades of people. I do not believe that it is at a point that it will stop a black person from being successful though and we have plenty of proof of that. Right now I think the biggest problem in black neighborhoods is fighting the feeling of defeat. We are still dealing with the after effects of racism and haven't made it far enough away where there is a feeling that success is available to those that strive for it. We will probably need another generation before the scars of the past fade.

You talk about black neighborhoods and white ones, but the problem is poverty stricken neighborhoods, not the color of the residents. Poor white people feel defeated too, when it goes on beyond their ability to keep hoping for something better.
Feeling that success is available to those who strive for it is completely unrelated to the "after effects of racism", [WTH?] it's about opportunities, which simply don't appear in most poor peoples' lives.
Another generation, and you think "the scars [of the past, ie: racism] will fade? Based on what evidence? Cause it's been a whole bunch of generations already, and it's still kicking our collective butts.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
True, but it can be entertaining. They is something about this picture that reminds me of my carrier of choice.
.
Krazy%20Kat%204_zpscorvft64.jpg
That looks eerily like someone in full body armor being hit with a brick while a cop in the background watches.

"A successful person is one who can build a firm, solid foundation with the bricks others have thrown at them."
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
That study isn't the opposite of what I believe, it's actually exactly what I expected. The stats prove that blacks are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime and that's not really a debatable point. The stats I used are based solely on race and that's what my comment was limited to. It does not mean that blacks commit more crimes simply because they are black which is what the study you shared gets into. That's what I meant before when I said it seems like you guys are debating different topics and aren't actually on the same page.

The article I posted mentioned that it's difficult to compare things on an equal level in poor neighborhoods based on race for the reasons listed in the study you posted. I don't think we will ever have a way to truly compare disadvantaged neighborhoods because there are mental conditioning issues at play as well which aren't likely in a white neighborhood. I believe that racism is still around and will never go away no matter what because there are different shades of people. I do not believe that it is at a point that it will stop a black person from being successful though and we have plenty of proof of that. Right now I think the biggest problem in black neighborhoods is fighting the feeling of defeat. We are still dealing with the after effects of racism and haven't made it far enough away where there is a feeling that success is available to those that strive for it. We will probably need another generation before the scars of the past fade.
I would remove "the after effects of" and go with what's left. Or, change it to "We're still dealing with the after effects of slavery."

I think it will take a lot longer than another generation. For one, racism to a degree is hard coded in the DNA. It's a mechanism for the survival of the species. There are parts of the world where slavery American style never happened and backs back no cultural history of being oppressed yet there is racism. Two, whites in America tend to dismiss slavery as being relevant today, because "Hey, I didn't own slaves. And the slaves were freed 150 years ago" and they (we) really don't have any concept of what slavery really is, while American blacks on the other hand have the reality of slavery and the brutality and oppression of it as a part of what defines them as human beings and naturally see it as being relevant today. There is animosity on both sides for that. Plus, racism in America has been institutionalized in policy and law, specifically singling out African Americans as victims currently. That's something that reinforces racism rather than combats it, because it tells you that racism exists even in places and situations where it absolutely does not. There's animosity among whites because blacks are singed out, and animosity among blacks for being victims, right now today, in writing and in the law. It'll take several generations to overcome that.

The irony is, the very things the government has done to combat and erase racism has created more of it. If allowed to happen naturally, as is the case with humans we'd be mostly integrated now without much animosity. But while the Civil Rights Act gave the right push in the right direction, they went too far with forced integration, resulting in the predicted backlash of animosity and racial problems we have today.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You talk about black neighborhoods and white ones, but the problem is poverty stricken neighborhoods, not the color of the residents. Poor white people feel defeated too, when it goes on beyond their ability to keep hoping for something better.
Feeling that success is available to those who strive for it is completely unrelated to the "after effects of racism", [WTH?] it's about opportunities, which simply don't appear in most poor peoples' lives.
Another generation, and you think "the scars [of the past, ie: racism] will fade? Based on what evidence? Cause it's been a whole bunch of generations already, and it's still kicking our collective butts.
And then you have THIS being taught in our schools,driving a wedge between the races and dividing them further. Yes, it's being taught in Baltimore.
Excerpt below:
Plumbing the politically correct depths to explain why black and Hispanic students lag behind whites academically, the PEG identifies the supposed culprit: “white privilege.” The idea is that our educational system is based upon white culture and norms and thus is not conducive to minority success. And what are “white norms” according to the PEG? Qualities such as industriousness, punctuality, and civilized classroom behavior. Of course, it’s phrased a bit more euphemistically than that. As EAG News’ Steve Gunn writes:

Teachers are … taught that they should have separate behavior expectations for minority students, because those students supposedly come from cultures with radically different values.

For instance, one of the annual white privilege conferences in Wisconsin taught participants that minority kids frequently have a “different value and view on time, missed days, working together, and wait time between questions and answers.”

It tells teachers to “be flexible” with minority students who are persistently late or miss a lot of school days. It also tells teachers to be tolerant if black children exhibit “an exuberant participation style of shouting out answers and questions.”

According to PEG, white culture is based on “white individualism” or “white traits” like “rugged individualism,” “adherence to rigid time schedules,” “plan(ning) for the future,” and the idea that “hard work is the key to success.”


One could almost conclude that if the races have such intractably different modi operandi — if black is black and white is white and ne’er the twain shall meet — perhaps segregation is in order.

And, actually, that’s what PEG sometimes prescribes.

Though, again, they mince words a bit. As Gunn reports, the organization instructs teachers “to identify ‘focus students,’ adding that ‘it is preferable for all the students to be of the same racial group.’”

So gone are the days when liberals swore that black children learned better when alongside white children; in the past are their battles against segregationists, such as infamous Democrat George Wallace, who never had recourse to say, “I’m not denying opportunity — I’m just protecting these hapless black kids from white privilege!”

And this is precisely PEG’s message. According to Gunn, the organization preaches that so-called “white privilege” is detrimental to minority students’ academic endeavors, and that white values are “foreign” to these non-white youth. Ironically and tragically, this echoes negative messages black children often hear on the street, where successful black students are often impugned by peers as “acting white” (a phenomenon driven by jealousy).

And PEG’s philosophy — which has been called “the soft bigotry of low expectations” — is convincing some educators. For instance, Gunn quotes school principal Sharon Brittingham as having said at a 2010 PEG-influenced “white privilege” conference that while she’d previously thought they were doing their best for minority students, she now realizes that “what had to change was that belief that these children could learn at high levels of expectations.”

http://www.thenewamerican.com/cultu...o-teach-white-privilege-and-black-stereotypes
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Yeah, it does actually make the case for segregation. But I do think forced segregation is just as bad as forced integration. It should be allowed to happen naturally.

When I was in middle school, starting in 7th grade, I got to experience first hand forced integration, including busing and the whole bit. One large white and two black school districts merged, too where the student body was pretty much 50/50 white and black. The first couple of years there wasn't room at the large high school or middle school for all those students, so until additions to the buildings could be completed, they would shuttle students between the nice white school buildings and the old crappy black school buildings. Hang the students spent the morning at one place, the other half at the other, then at lunch we'd board busses swap locations. Had to make sure everyone was schooled equally, ya know. But it was weird, and unnatural.

You could see plainly that blacks and whites, generally speaking, learned different things differently. It's almost like all boy and all girl schools, where things are taught and learned differently. People, races and genders, learn best when they're comfortable, ace of they are most comfortable with others more like them, so be it

Ac you could see it in the lunchroom, where a 50/50 student body would mostly collect in small groups of like races. As the year and the years wore on, the groupings were less distinct, as natural integration started to occur.

If they'd just let things happen naturally, it would work better and be real, instead of the pretend, feel-good integration that the we have now.

On another note, annual white privilege conference? Sign me up for that!
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Placing the yoke of victimhood on ethnic minorities is a favored, but cruel, tactic of liberals in the United States. It's the patronizing equivalent of 'you poor little thing" while patting minorities on the head and reassuring them that do-gooders such as Rev. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson or the nation's leading race-baiter, Barack Obama will find 'social justice" for them. The Democratic Party has amassed great political power selling victimology to generations of Americans who ought to know better. Entire segments of our population have been made to believe victimhood is their birthright. Imagine coming out of the womb with a pre-packaged excuse for low expectations. It's beyond demeaning.

Living a successful and meaningful life is not shrouded in mystery. It's rooted in self respect and personal responsibility. Don't attach much significance to being part of a group. Life is lived as an individual. Rise or fall on individual merit. Group attachment does not lead to a better place.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
I would remove "the after effects of" and go with what's left. Or, change it to "We're still dealing with the after effects of slavery."

I wasn't clear enough in what I meant. I am referring to the 1950's and 60's when blacks were able to be openly discriminated against. That's very recent history and we still have grandparents and parents alive that experienced it. The stories of the Civil Rights movement are still first person so there hasn't been enough of a generational disconnect. How many people really connect with the struggles of their great grandparents or great great grandparents? I am curious about what my ancestors went through but the interracial marriage of my great grandparents(white guy married an Indian) that had to be hidden really doesn't influence me. Now the children would have been impacted but the anger fades and it's just looked upon as being a tale of survival.

I think it will take a lot longer than another generation. For one, racism to a degree is hard coded in the DNA. It's a mechanism for the survival of the species. There are parts of the world where slavery American style never happened and backs back no cultural history of being oppressed yet there is racism.

Discrimination is a way for people to focus anger which probably gives them some feeling of superiority. We have done it based on race, country of origin, and even hair color. I don't think it will disappear entirely in another generation but the impact will be greatly diminished.

Two, whites in America tend to dismiss slavery as being relevant today, because "Hey, I didn't own slaves. And the slaves were freed 150 years ago" and they (we) really don't have any concept of what slavery really is, while American blacks on the other hand have the reality of slavery and the brutality and oppression of it as a part of what defines them as human beings and naturally see it as being relevant today. There is animosity on both sides for that.

I don't see slavery being brought up as the source of anger or example of oppression as much as the evil acts during the timeframe I mentioned before. I could be completely wrong but I just think we will see a disconnect with those times happen.

Plus, racism in America has been institutionalized in policy and law, specifically singling out African Americans as victims currently. That's something that reinforces racism rather than combats it, because it tells you that racism exists even in places and situations where it absolutely does not. There's animosity among whites because blacks are singed out, and animosity among blacks for being victims, right now today, in writing and in the law. It'll take several generations to overcome that.

Nothing like being told that you are too weak to handle things on your own so the government needs to step in and protect you with special laws. I think that those laws will have limited impact as far as animosity goes.

The irony is, the very things the government has done to combat and erase racism has created more of it. If allowed to happen naturally, as is the case with humans we'd be mostly integrated now without much animosity. But while the Civil Rights Act gave the right push in the right direction, they went too far with forced integration, resulting in the predicted backlash of animosity and racial problems we have today.

Blacks went from being treated worse than animals, to being treated like animals, then became second class citizens, then equals, and now I guess they are viewed as being delicate and warrant extra protection all within 150 years. I view the government involvement in this similar to unions. There was a time where it was certainly needed but now they just need to get out of the way and just let the people handle it.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
That looks eerily like someone in full body armor being hit with a brick while a cop in the background watches.

"A successful person is one who can build a firm, solid foundation with the bricks others have thrown at them."
It were jus a little ole mouse what throwed da brick.
 

Turtle

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Staff member
Retired Expediter
I wasn't clear enough in what I meant. I am referring to the 1950's and 60's when blacks were able to be openly discriminated against. That's very recent history and we still have grandparents and parents alive that experienced it.
Even some of us have experienced it. I don't really remember it, cognitively, and am unaware of what all really went on behind the scenes and the attitudes and circumstances and what not, but have you ever seen the movie "The Help"? It was kinda like that, I think. The first 9 years of my life I was raised largely by a black nanny named Kizzy. She was called a nanny and not a maid, so there may be stark differences between that and the movie, but after seeing the movie, and knowing how racist my dad was (a product of his time), I have to wonder. My mom, however, was the opposite of racist. That may be because her mother was half Cherokee, I dunno. I was just growing up, living in my own little world, not concerned about those things, oblivious to it all. I also remember, distinctly, I had a great uncle on my mother's side who was a Grand Dragon of the KKK. My memories of him are mostly him sitting on the front porch of the log cabin he built himself spitting tobacco juice into a coffee can, though.

Blacks went from being treated worse than animals, to being treated like animals, then became second class citizens, then equals...
I'm not sure about being treated as equals, but I know what you mean. And that's exactly how most whites see things. Most whites look at it like, slavery is over, the discrimination up through the 60s is over, let it go and get on with your life. And to a large extent I agree with that. The past is what it is, but it's the past, let's move on. But blacks don't look at in those terms, they think differently than we do. Part of that is because of the biased policing that really hasn't stopped since the 50s, part of it is the fact that white people are afraid of black people and think every black person they see either just has or is about to commit a crime, but mostly it's the fact that their history is what defines them.

Whites largely immigrated here as individuals, and most whites don't really know their genealogical history beyond a couple of generations. Family history and the extended families just aren't all that important to most whites (exceptions, of course). But blacks came here against their will, as a group, and were kept separate, as a group, and had many of their nuclear families forcibly torn apart. What became most important to blacks is the history that binds them and their extended family, because that's all they had. Whites generally don't look at their cousins as being close, immediate family, but blacks certainly do. Even second cousins are not much different than siblings in black families, because they're all part of the same family.

When police brutality or some other oppressive injustice occurs, whites are quick to frame it in an isolate vacuum, an incident to be looked at in its entirety on its own, nothing else external matters. Blacks look at it through the lens of their closely held defining history and as part of their extended family. That's why I think it's going to take several more generations to get away from the racial civil unrest of the 50s and 60s.
 
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Pilgrim

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Retired Expediter
There was no insult. If you beat your chest and talk like Rambo, you open yourself up to criticism
Of course it was intended to be personal and insulting. But what I said was not Rambo talk and it's not chest beating; I'm only one of the approximately 12 Million people in the US who have concealed carry permits for the purpose of self defense. I guess that makes them all chest-beaters and Rambos because they intend to defend themselves if attacked.

http://www.legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
 

LDB

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Retired Expediter
A friend of mine is two time state pistol champion and a personal defense trainer. He has competed with national champions and won against them at various times. In a group of students his comments about one individual were "He's the most dangerous one in the group. He looks the most innocuous. He's the last one anyone would expect anything from. That would be their downfall, underestimating him." I follow that principle and I wouldn't want anyone throwing bricks or any other potentially deadly objects at me.
 
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Turtle

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Of course it was intended to be personal and insulting. But what I said was not Rambo talk and it's not chest beating; I'm only one of the approximately 12 Million people in the US who have concealed carry permits for the purpose of self defense. I guess that makes them all chest-beaters and Rambos because they intend to defend themselves if attacked.

http://www.legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
Carrying a gun, permit or not, does not make someone chest beater or a Rambo. Being a chest beater does, tho.
 

Pilgrim

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Retired Expediter
OK - if stating that I'll defend myself if somebody attacks me with a brick makes me a chest beater, then so be it - I'm out of the closet. But be aware there are a lot of us out here, so be careful who you attack with bricks.;)
 

Turtle

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OK - if stating that I'll defend myself if somebody attacks me with a brick makes me a chest beater, then so be it - I'm out of the closet. But be aware there are a lot of us out here, so be careful who you attack with bricks.;)
No one is suggesting you shouldn't defend yourself from an attack. Most anyone would defend themselves from attack. I certainly would.

Stating that you'll defend yourself if attacked (with bricks or anything else) does not a chest-beater make. Stating the outcome as somehow being a slam-dunk, foregone conclusion with "Personally, if someone tries to attack me with a brick they're gonna get shot. Period. End of discussion, end of problem," and "...if you're throwing bricks at me from a 5 yard distance you're gonna have a problem," does.
 

Pilgrim

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Retired Expediter
No one is suggesting you shouldn't defend yourself from an attack. Most anyone would defend themselves from attack. I certainly would.

Stating that you'll defend yourself if attacked (with bricks or anything else) does not a chest-beater make. Stating the outcome as somehow being a slam-dunk, foregone conclusion with "Personally, if someone tries to attack me with a brick they're gonna get shot. Period. End of discussion, end of problem," and "...if you're throwing bricks at me from a 5 yard distance you're gonna have a problem," does.
No it doesn't; you're not getting the context of imminent threat. The "period. End of discussion, end of problem" text came from the quote from the Baltimore prosecutor. I tried to explain this earlier - that somebody throwing bricks or threatening someone with a weapon other than a firearm from 15 yards (45 feet) doesn't constitute imminent danger because you have a chance to escape or take cover. There are exceptions to this. However, it's a basic law enforcement and military fundamental that you don't let a potential attacker get within 7 yards - especially if he's got a knife, but it can also apply to an attacker with a brick, bottle, lead pipe, etc. It's called the Tueller Drill. Check it out.

http://www.bladefighting.com/21footrule.htm
 
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