If you think the 4 references in the Declaration to God aren't clear enough...
Actually there are 5 references to a higher power in the Declaration of Independence, not 4. But in any case none of them are specific to one particular higher power or in the One True Christian God. The fact that religious people would reference a higher power, including their own God, in a declaration of independence, is not surprising in the least. It is also not surprising that a group comprised largely of religious people that their motives and actions were guided by their religious beliefs. No one is questioning that.
But by the same token, they took great pains not to force their own beliefs onto others. The wording of the declaration is exacting and carefully chosen. It was done so specifically so that people wouldn't read it and then try and interpret it with, "Oh, OK. What they
REALLY mean here is this...." Rather, they said exactly what they meant, personal interpretation of the reader not required. In fact it was written specifically so that personal, political or spiritual interpretations was not to be used. They wanted to make their meaning very, very clear to the King of England, and to the world.
...here are some quotes from our founding fathers and other proof that gives a pretty clear view of their beliefs.
That's one of the first truly accurate things you've said in this entire thread, that it's a clear view of their beliefs. But to be more accurate, it's a clear view of SOME of the Founding Father's beliefs.
But then you go and ruin it with...
The list could go on and on which shows the intentions of our founders.
The quotes only show the intentions of SOME of our founders. It does not show the intentions of the Founding Fathers as a group, as a whole. You know what shows the intentions of the Founding Fathers as a group, as a whole? The Founding Documents that define their intentions and define this country, that's what.
There is no question that many of our Founding Fathers wanted this to be a Christian nation, and with an established religion, to boot. But some of them did not want either of those. Just like today, there are some people who want this to be a Christian nation, with their own particular religion in charge. And just like way back then, it's not going to happen. Sorry.
If the Founding Fathers as a group, as a whole, had as their intentions that this nation be a Christian nation, then clearly they were grossly incompetent, astoundingly inept, and just plain butt-stoopid. Because, what they did was, they went about doing the exact opposite of what needed to be done to ensure their intentions were fulfilled. They abolished all laws requiring citizens to have a religion and to be a member of a church. But wait, there's more! They then stupidly went and wrote into the actual Constitution of the United States of America, the de facto and implicit Law of the Land, something that made it impossible for the government to even revisit similar laws of requirement of religion in the future. That's just incredibly foolish, absurd and haplessly incompetent, don't you think?
Yet every other intention they had about this new nation, they were incredibly clear and competent, adroit and skillful in their verbosity and communicating their meaning. Such an incredible, almost unbelievable competence at so many things, page after page, one right after the other, yet so incredibly incompetent in getting their intentions properly conveyed about the ONE THING which so many of them were deeply passionate about. How can this be?
The answer should be obvious, that they weren't, in fact, so highly competent in all areas of their intentions except one, and then in that one area they were so incredibly incompetent. No, they made their intentions for this nation quite clear when they framed the nation with the Constitution, the document which governs the nation and its people.
I understand that people may feel differently but there is plenty of undeniable proof to show the founders thought we were a Christian nation versus a single line from a treaty that was later removed, written by someone that was not a founding father.
The only proof is that SOME of the founders thought (and wanted) us to be a Christian nation. There is no proof that the body of Founding Fathers as a whole wanted or thought that. In fact, the First Amendment is undeniable, irrefutable proof of just the opposite of what you (and many Christians) want to claim.
I'm not really sure why it's so important to you that whoever penned the religious clause of the Tripoli Treaty was not a Founding Father, unless it's so you can dismiss it by saying it didn't reflect the views of the Founding Fathers. But the simple undeniable fact that you are ignoring is, it's really and truly irrelevant who wrote it. It could have been penned by King George himself for all it mattered. It's irrelevant because it was submitted to to the Senate by President and Founding Father John Adams, and received
unanimous ratification from a US Senate just chock-full and busting-at-the-seams of Founding Fathers, and then was signed into law by President John Adams (same one as above), thus taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.
Do you really believe the
entire Senate, upon being handed their very first-ever treaty to pass judgement on, would have unanimously ratified such a bold statement of fact if it did not accurately reflect their views and intentions? Seriously?
