Abortion-should she have gotten the dealth penalty

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
The Catholic churches have been exempted from the requirement. Their hospitals and universities have not, as they don't limit employees to strictly Catholics. [Who use contraceptives at the same rates as non Catholics, lol. :rolleyes:]

So.....are you saying it is ok for the government to force that decision on the ones that don't have that belief? I believe Hobby Lobby is or will be suing over the same thing.
My personal opinion with all the problems that exist, the government shouldn't even be involved in contraception. Same with abortion. Public money shouldn't be spent on it.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I'm saying the compromise that worked for conscientious objectors to fighting wars should work for objectors to contraceptives: no one should be forced to use contraceptives [as no one was forced to fight] but no one should be permitted to refuse to pay taxes because of a moral objection. There are items paid for with taxes that I find morally objectionable, [same for everyone, I bet] but we don't get to dictate how the money is spent, do we? If it's for the public good, [and women's health in general and family planning in particular certainly qualify] then it's what we pay taxes for.
The only difference between a Pap test and contraceptives is that some religious authorities object to one on 'moral' grounds. I don't think public policy or health care should depend upon the framework of one religion - that is against everything the founding fathers meant to achieve for us.
Unplanned and unwanted pregnancies and babies are a stress to more than the women involved, they're a stress [and a costly one] to society in general, and that makes it a matter of the public good.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The only difference between a Pap test and contraceptives is that some religious authorities object to one on 'moral' grounds. I don't think public policy or health care should depend upon the framework of one religion - that is against everything the founding fathers meant to achieve for us.
The Founding Fathers never intended for the government to be the administer of health care, either. Taxes were never meant to be for the public good insofar as family planning and women's health care. Taxes were meant to keep the government functioning to provide for security, roads, commerce and foreign policy objectives.

Unplanned and unwanted pregnancies and babies are a stress to more than the women involved, they're a stress [and a costly one] to society in general, and that makes it a matter of the public good.
That's a classic cart-before-the-horse argument. The reason unwanted pregnancies and babies are a costly stress to society in general is because tax money is being used to pay for it. Remove the tax money and the problem is largely mitigated.

Unwanted pregnancies and babies were never a stress on society at large until taxes removed the responsibility from the individual and placed it onto society at large. Unwanted pregnancies and the babies were a rare thing, relatively speaking, but now, thanks to taxpayer money assuming the responsibility for it all, it's running rampant. The 'give a man a fish' analogy applies here, where you can teach someone the responsibilities of pregnancy, abortion and babies and they will live their lives within society accordingly, or you can give them the option of no responsibility and end up with a pandemic of unwanted pregnancies, easy, free abortions and unwanted babies.

Every thing that taxpayer money gets thrown at gets bigger, wasteful and more expensive. Family planning and women's health care (as if men don't have health care issues) is one of the more glaring examples. Medicare and Medicaid pay every day for unnecessary procedures and tests, and the prices are higher than they should be simply because the health care industry can get that money from the government.

But just look at college tuition costs, an another example. It used to be that the cost of tuition was relatively cheap, where the middle class could easily afford it, and many students could work their way through college in a part-time job. Now that taxpayer money has been pumped into the system, colleges know that they lo longer have to make tuition affordable in order for people to attend. They'll get the money as long as federal funding and federal guaranteed loans are available, so the tuition has gone through the roof. Using today's dollars, in 1980 the average tuition cost for a public university was $3101, and about 15% of students received financial aid in some form. In 2010 the tuition figure rose to $22,092 with more than 80% of that money coming in the form of financial aid. Remove the financial aid from the university coffers and the cost of tuition drops like a rock. College tuition has outpaced inflation by an insane margin. Since 1982 income has increased 147%, but tuition has increased 492%. Interestingly, financial aid from the federal government has increased over the same period by 466%. 492 - 466 = 26, which ironically is precisely the amount of increased costs that can be directly attributed to inflation over that period, 26%. So federal funding is not getting more people education, it's just costing more, and putting more into the bank accounts of universities and staff.

Every college student now causes a stress, and a costly one at that, on society at large. Why? Because taxpayer money is used to pay for it. Stop that and the stress ceases. It works for things other than college, too, like, you know, family planning and women's heath care issues.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I do not agree with the Blue Laws because that actually does infringe on a persons ability to partake in an otherwise legal activity based solely on religion, with abortion the debate goes beyond a person's religion.
Not really. Religion is what caused the debate in the first place. Until the late 1800s religion wasn't involved in abortion issues, and there was no debate beyond the debate of the mother and the one who got her pregnant. Now that religion has gotten involved, there is a debate, but the debate still centers on whether or not someone should be able to tell someone else what to do, same as most religious debates, including the Blue Laws.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I'd say that ensuring that we the people have access to health care falls under several areas, but especially promoting the general welfare.
Women's health care shouldn't be a separate issue, but became one when the religious authorities made it one by objecting to contraception and abortion. [Oddly enough, they don't object to paying for Viagra, eh?].
It is very much in the government's interests to ensure that all citizens have health care, if only because it is the government's responsibility to deal with citizens who die in the streets [or wherever] from sickness, injury, or just old age, if no one else steps up to do it.

Bodies littering the pavement just looks bad, ya know?
:rolleyes:
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Unwanted pregnancies and babies aren't a costly and stressful thing, you say? I think women who had one baby after another [my grandmother had 11, my mother 7] until they were physically worn out would have something different to say on the subject. Let alone the children they had to raise without enough money to keep them all fed and dressed and healthy till adulthood.
How about the toll of botched abortions [including self induced]? The infections and deaths didn't cost anything, or stress anyone?
How about the homes for unwed mothers? don't think they cost money, or stressed the people sent there? [And their families] No psychological cost to shame, you think?
The stress and costs of unwanted pregnancies existed, all right, they just weren't mentioned in 'polite' society. The unfortunate girl would be sent off to 'stay with relatives' or some other fabricated excuse to hide the truth, and she'd be forced to hand the baby over for adoption, whatever she felt about it, because there was no way she could support herself and a child.
You really think that didn't cost anything, to the women and the families and the whole of society?

 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
The government is not designed to be all things to all people. Using substitutions for society's lack of personal responsibility is not a good thing. At no point when these things weren't provided did we have people lying in the street.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Unwanted pregnancies and babies aren't a costly and stressful thing, you say?
No, I didn't say that. At least not in this brand new context you've now introduced. You're the one who set the parameters of it being costly and stressful to "society in general, and that makes if a matter of the public good."

I think women who had one baby after another [my grandmother had 11, my mother 7] until they were physically worn out would have something different to say on the subject.
They might, but frankly I'd be surprised if those women would say their own stress somehow translated to the stress of an entire society at large.

Let alone the children they had to raise without enough money to keep them all fed and dressed and healthy till adulthood.
It's not society's responsibility to feed and clothe children of people who decided to get pregnant even though they couldn't afford to have children. But that's really a different subject, now isn't it? If society weren't providing taxpayer money to subsidize irresponsibility in the first place, then those children wouldn't be a stressful and costly burden on society.

How about the toll of botched abortions [including self induced]? The infections and deaths didn't cost anything, or stress anyone? How about the homes for unwed mothers? don't think they cost money, or stressed the people sent there? [And their families] No psychological cost to shame, you think?
Again, you're changing the parameters. Yes, there is stress there, but to the individuals and to those close to them, but there is no stress or cost on society at large.

The stress and costs of unwanted pregnancies existed, all right, they just weren't mentioned in 'polite' society. The unfortunate girl would be sent off to 'stay with relatives' or some other fabricated excuse to hide the truth, and she'd be forced to hand the baby over for adoption, whatever she felt about it, because there was no way she could support herself and a child.
You really think that didn't cost anything, to the women and the families and the whole of society?
Well, using the word "and", I'd have to say no, it didn't cost anything to the women and the families AND the whole of society. There was a cost to the women and the families, but society as a whole didn't even skip a beat.

Apparently, you think the government, and thus the taxpayers, are responsible to see to it that each and every individual not experience stress, cost or hardship resulting from their actions, that people should have no responsibility they should take upon themselves.

Incidentally,
I'd say that ensuring that we the people have access to health care falls under several areas, but especially promoting the general welfare.
There is a world of difference between "promoting" the general welfare and "providing for" the general welfare. As Dave states, the government is not designed to be all things to all people. And that includes health care. It's also important to know what the term "general welfare" means. The "general welfare" in the context of the Constitution is the promotion of good fortune, health, happiness, prosperity, etc. With respect to good health, that doesn't mean heath care, and it certainly doesn't mean "entitlements". It means the government should not doing things that cause people to have bad health. That sentence from the Constitution doesn't mean the government should be ensuring people's access to health care any more than it means the government should be ensuring that people have good fortune, happiness or prosperity.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I think you did a better job of explaining my position better than I did. It just isn't a function of government for people to feel comfy.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
The Founding Fathers never intended for the government to be the administer of health care, either. Taxes were never meant to be for the public good insofar as family planning and women's health care. Taxes were meant to keep the government functioning to provide for security, roads, commerce and foreign policy objectives.

That's a classic cart-before-the-horse argument. The reason unwanted pregnancies and babies are a costly stress to society in general is because tax money is being used to pay for it. Remove the tax money and the problem is largely mitigated.

Unwanted pregnancies and babies were never a stress on society at large until taxes removed the responsibility from the individual and placed it onto society at large. Unwanted pregnancies and the babies were a rare thing, relatively speaking, but now, thanks to taxpayer money assuming the responsibility for it all, it's running rampant. The 'give a man a fish' analogy applies here, where you can teach someone the responsibilities of pregnancy, abortion and babies and they will live their lives within society accordingly, or you can give them the option of no responsibility and end up with a pandemic of unwanted pregnancies, easy, free abortions and unwanted babies.

Every thing that taxpayer money gets thrown at gets bigger, wasteful and more expensive. Family planning and women's health care (as if men don't have health care issues) is one of the more glaring examples. Medicare and Medicaid pay every day for unnecessary procedures and tests, and the prices are higher than they should be simply because the health care industry can get that money from the government.

But just look at college tuition costs, an another example. It used to be that the cost of tuition was relatively cheap, where the middle class could easily afford it, and many students could work their way through college in a part-time job. Now that taxpayer money has been pumped into the system, colleges know that they lo longer have to make tuition affordable in order for people to attend. They'll get the money as long as federal funding and federal guaranteed loans are available, so the tuition has gone through the roof. Using today's dollars, in 1980 the average tuition cost for a public university was $3101, and about 15% of students received financial aid in some form. In 2010 the tuition figure rose to $22,092 with more than 80% of that money coming in the form of financial aid. Remove the financial aid from the university coffers and the cost of tuition drops like a rock. College tuition has outpaced inflation by an insane margin. Since 1982 income has increased 147%, but tuition has increased 492%. Interestingly, financial aid from the federal government has increased over the same period by 466%. 492 - 466 = 26, which ironically is precisely the amount of increased costs that can be directly attributed to inflation over that period, 26%. So federal funding is not getting more people education, it's just costing more, and putting more into the bank accounts of universities and staff.

Every college student now causes a stress, and a costly one at that, on society at large. Why? Because taxpayer money is used to pay for it. Stop that and the stress ceases. It works for things other than college, too, like, you know, family planning and women's heath care issues.

That college cost thing and student loans: A friend of mine age 62 , is in college and gets 7,000 dollars a semester. Why? He does not need a college degree at this time in life. He is using the money to live on and betting he will not live long enough to pay it back which is probably true do to some liver problems he has now. So ,he is getting about 21,000 a year of tuition money and 1200 a month social security income. He is using his accounting degree on this one,lol, do the math - roughly $ 35,400.00 a year for not working, yep , he has a plan and it works. Pass it on to some of your struggling friends.
 
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