So you have a gun in your truck?

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
English Lady wrote:



Sue I didn't say that the British LEO's were useless...as i am sure you can attest that when the threat of violence occurs, they are noit "unarmed"...the problem with that mentality is that no one knows when that need will arise...but the fact is that the differences in our cultures has showes that for the most part an armed public is a polite public...but when you have the right to defend yourself even with a firearm, that means everyone, including some that shouldn't be armed will be, and that is where the problem arises...so to not onfringe on the right of the populace as a whole we have to deal with those that will use a fight arm , not to defend but as an offensive weapon....and thats when our armed LEO's "suppose" to be the protection for the public....but as i also said, when a LEO is needed, they are only a phone call and minutes away....and if the person in need is involved with an armed intruder, that call and minutes can be mean the difference between living and dying...thats why we feel the right to be armed...to beable to defend ourselves .... a gun is noting more then a tool....

As for you being the mom of a LEO, I missed that post and no disrepect was meant towards your son in my post...although I'd rather he be armed at all times and not only when the powers that be think he needs to be....it could save his life one day...


Thats ok Dennis :) .... I understand that, as it is hard for me to embrace your gun culture, you in turn find it hard to embrace our non-gun culture.

I do know this for a fact - our police do not want to be armed - as far as they are concerned there is a separate division for firearms qualified police and they are called out as & when needed.



You will probably laugh at this but .......

It scares the bejeebers out of us when we go to, say, Heathrow airport and see the police there with rifles and sidearms.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
yeah he is reaching....the fact armed cops die just as quick or quicker then unarmed cops....doesn't really support cops are anymore effective....they still die....and the Brits don't have innocent citizens hurt by stray bullets by some panicky or rookie cop..there is pros and cons to both sides..

In hand to hand combat with a billy..betcha a Bobby would beat the American cop hands down...lol.
 
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paullud

Veteran Expediter
It scares the bejeebers out of us when we go to, say, Heathrow airport and see the police there with rifles and sidearms.

You should try going out to a shooting range and get some professional instruction, it will help remove the fear you have of guns and can be fun. A lot of people are afraid of guns because there is a fear of what they see in the news but fail to realize no matter what the situation is there is a person in control of the gun which determines how it is used. Does England have a complete lack of crime due to their gun restrictions? Of course not thugs will use knives, baseball bats, tire irons or anything else that gives them the power to take what they want.

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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
You should try going out to a shooting range and get some professional instruction, it will help remove the fear you have of guns and can be fun. A lot of people are afraid of guns because there is a fear of what they see in the news but fail to realize no matter what the situation is there is a person in control of the gun which determines how it is used. Does England have a complete lack of crime due to their gun restrictions? Of course not thugs will use knives, baseball bats, tire irons or anything else that gives them the power to take what they want.

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That is what I did...bought my first rifle just to try and be more comfortable around it....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
An unarmed society is a controlled society. They survive only at the whim of the government. They are unable to protect themselves from the government becomes dangerous. All governments do. The individual is responsible for their own safety. NO government can protect everyone 100% of the time. I am not sheep enough to be a victim.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
List of British police officers killed in the line of duty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looks to be only 150 British officers since 1900 killed in the line of duty

and 160 alone in just 1 year in the US...

These incidents are part of an overall trend of increased violence against police officers and law enforcement professionals this year. According to preliminary data compiled by the memorial fund, a total of 160 federal, state and local law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 12 months.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
An unarmed society is a controlled society. They survive only at the whim of the government. They are unable to protect themselves from the government becomes dangerous. All governments do. The individual is responsible for their own safety. NO government can protect everyone 100% of the time. I am not sheep enough to be a victim.


I think you will have to elaborate on that one for me, cos as it stands I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I felt safe enough in my home (in England) without the need of alarms, window locks, deadlocks or anything else locks - here we have all of the above :rolleyes:
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
You should try going out to a shooting range and get some professional instruction, it will help remove the fear you have of guns and can be fun. A lot of people are afraid of guns because there is a fear of what they see in the news but fail to realize no matter what the situation is there is a person in control of the gun which determines how it is used. Does England have a complete lack of crime due to their gun restrictions? Of course not thugs will use knives, baseball bats, tire irons or anything else that gives them the power to take what they want.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App



I have fired a rifle before albeit an air rifle - hit the target evertime too :cool:
It was on one of those "adventure" type vacations - did a fencing course aswell :p
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
I have fired a rifle before albeit an air rifle - hit the target evertime too :cool:
It was on one of those "adventure" type vacations - did a fencing course aswell :p

Wow, Our Lady of The Sword, u go Mum. See u dont have to shoot anyone, just stick em.:D
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
List of British police officers killed in the line of duty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looks to be only 150 British officers since 1900 killed in the line of duty

and 160 alone in just 1 year in the US...

These incidents are part of an overall trend of increased violence against police officers and law enforcement professionals this year. According to preliminary data compiled by the memorial fund, a total of 160 federal, state and local law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 12 months.

The math is off in this because one we are comparing a nation of 49 million to one of 311 million and on that Wikipedia page they subtracted officers that were killed in anything other than crimes. The 160 killed in the line of duty in the US for 2010 includes all deaths.

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EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
The math is off in this because one we are comparing a nation of 49 million to one of 311 million and on that Wikipedia page they subtracted officers that were killed in anything other than crimes. The 160 killed in the line of duty in the US for 2010 includes all deaths.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App


5,000 British Police in 300 years

Police Roll of Honour Trust - National Police Officers Roll of Honour and Remembrance

Perhaps one of our EO mathematicians would care to do the ratio.



US Police Officers

19,000 in 220 years

Since the first recorded police death in 1791, there have been over 19,000 law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty. Currently, there are 19,298 names engraved on the walls of the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial

http://www.nleomf.com/facts/enforcement/
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
In hand to hand combat with a billy..betcha a Bobby would beat the American cop hands down...lol.
Because British cops are traditionally unarmed, they are trained to not just defend themselves, but to be overpowering, as in many cases a successful arrest comes down to the survival of the fittest. I don't want to get too general with stereotypes, but many a routine arrest in Britain would be considered blatant police brutality here in the US. Instead of pointing a gun at you and saying, "Assume the position," British police just taser you and beat you into submission right from the get-go just to make sure they've got your attention.

They learned a long time ago that, "STOP!... or else I'll yell STOP! again," is only effective to a point. :D

There are now more and more armed police on the streets in England, probably more now than at any time in history, but it's still the exception rather than the rule. But armed or not, they are still somewhat notorious for packing a mean punch. There's the old saying, most people will respect the badge, but everybody will respect the gun. Well, when people don't respect the badge (which is quite common in Britain, as criminals have discovered that in a fight with an unarmed bobby you're got a 50/50 chance), then you gotta have something to fall back on. If you don't have a gun, you need something else, so they are well trained in hand-to-hand combat. At least they remain quite polite and courteous during and after the beating, as per tradition. :D
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Because British cops are traditionally unarmed, they are trained to not just defend themselves, but to be overpowering, as in many cases a successful arrest comes down to the survival of the fittest. I don't want to get too general with stereotypes, but many a routine arrest in Britain would be considered blatant police brutality here in the US. Instead of pointing a gun at you and saying, "Assume the position," British police just taser you and beat you into submission right from the get-go just to make sure they've got your attention.

They learned a long time ago that, "STOP!... or else I'll yell STOP! again," is only effective to a point. :D

There are now more and more armed police on the streets in England, probably more now than at any time in history, but it's still the exception rather than the rule. But armed or not, they are still somewhat notorious for packing a mean punch. There's the old saying, most people will respect the badge, but everybody will respect the gun. Well, when people don't respect the badge (which is quite common in Britain, as criminals have discovered that in a fight with an unarmed bobby you're got a 50/50 chance), then you gotta have something to fall back on. If you don't have a gun, you need something else, so they are well trained in hand-to-hand combat. At least they remain quite polite and courteous during and after the beating, as per tradition. :D



I do hope that that was all in jest Turtle :eek:

Otherwise I most strongly object to most of what you have written.

We do not taser and beat the **** out of ppl at all.
If you so wish I will have my son send me their tactics and I will post them here.

Also - we DO NOT have armed police walking around our streets at all.
The Firearms division is only called out in exceptional circumstances.

I am not going to get into an argument over "respecting the badge or the gun"
.
I will say though....

No matter whar side of the pond you are on - policeman are respected by the law abiding and not by the crims.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
A significant portion of LEO killings in this country are due to soft liberals and the lack of severity and intensity of consequences for criminals. If laws were sufficiently harsh and consequences sufficiently severe the majority of even criminals would be too much in fear to kill anyone.

Good people don't commit crimes because they are good people. Bad people only don't commit the crimes of which they are too much in fear of the consequences. We are far too soft on true criminals.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
5,000 British Police in 300 years

Police Roll of Honour Trust - National Police Officers Roll of Honour and Remembrance

Perhaps one of our EO mathematicians would care to do the ratio.

US Police Officers

19,000 in 220 years

You would need to know the total population for each year in order to come up with a per capita figure. In addition, you would need the total numbers of police officers in a given year to come up with a valid ratio.

All organizations have their little special interest agenda. The link for the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund is no exception. They need people to feel sorry for or have empathy for how dangerous it is to be a police officer, a real-life crime fighter, a bona fine hero. They talk of crime, violent crime, officer deaths, assaults, of being killed in the line of duty. A bread truck delivery man is more likely to be killed while on duty, actually.

19,000 officers killed in the line of duty since 1791. OMG! That's a lot! In 2005 alone, 156 line-of-duty deaths occurred! Wow.

But what they fail to talk about is that despite the increased risk of being a victim of a homicide, automobile accidents are the most common cause of on-duty officer deaths. Of those 156 line-of-duty deaths in 2005, 35% were from criminal acts (55 deaths, 38 of which were gun related), 44% were vehicle related (only 3% during vehicular pursuits) and the rest from other causes: heart attacks during arrests/foot pursuits, accidental gun discharges, falls, drownings, diseases contracted from suspects body fluids and, rarely, emergency blood transfusions.

(US police gun deaths are on the rise, however. A total of 61 on-duty officers in the United States died after being shot in 2010, up from 49 in 2009, and as of August 12, 2011, already 49 police officers have been shot and killed while on duty, putting 2011 on track for one of the worst years for lawmen killed in gun-related deaths in a decade.)

In the UK, in the 10 years from April 2000 there were 143 line of duty deaths, 70% of which were vehicle related: 54 in road accidents traveling to or from duty, 46 in road accidents while on-duty, 23 from natural causes on duty, 15 from criminal acts, and 5 in other accidents (4 falls, 1 drowning).

Meanwhile in the United States, 679 people in America have died as a direct result of being shot with stun guns by police. 48 people in 2008, 55 in 2009, 61 in 2010, and as of August 6th of this year, 39 people have been stun-gunned to death. Anyone else notice the similarity of the police officer gun related deaths and the civilian stun gun related deaths? And these numbers don't even include the numbers of civilians who were killed by police using firearms.

While it is true, at least according to the National Institute of Justice (the research, development and evaluation agency of the US Department of Justice), 99.7 percent of people who are tasered suffer no serious injuries, much less die. So that's good. On the other hand, if 679 dead people is 0.3%, that means that more than 26,000 people have been tasered by police since the stun guns began to be widely used in the 1990s. It means that an average of five deaths per month equates to more than 1,600 people per month are getting stunned.

Three died last week alone, one of them a student at the University of Cincinnati who was trying to break up a fight in front of dormitory when campus police responded.

A naked man on drugs and disoriented died in Wisconsin this weekend, after police used a Taser stun gun to subdue him. A man high on drugs in Manassas, Va. punched an officer and a firefighter, while handcuffed, and then tried to escape. Rather than expend effort in, you know, chasing after him, they simply tasered him, which caused an immediate cardiac arrest followed rather quickly by his death.

Eighteen year old Everette Howard was an honors student in the top ten percent of his high school graduating class, a volunteer at a homeless shelter, preparing to attend college on wresting scholarship, was taking summer classes at UC. Police said Howard appeared agitated and angry (duh, he just broke up a fight) and didn’t follow orders. Witness have a different story. Because he didn't follow the orders of police to stop right where he was, they tased him.

He was handcuffed and police noted a good pulse and that he was breathing, albeit somewhat irregularly, but also that he was not in a "normal state of mind," that something was amiss. Paramedics were called, and as they arrived a few minutes later he went into cardiac arrest. They were unable to revive him at the scene or at the hospital. An autopsy will be performed, campus police have discontinued the use of stun guns, the officer who stunned Howard is on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of an investigation into the incident, police chief says officer's actions were justified, and Howard's parents have retained an attorney.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
"So you have a gun in your truck or are you just happy to see me." Mae West


 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I do hope that that was all in jest Turtle :eek:
Some of that was in jest, but the gist was not.

Otherwise I most strongly object to most of what you have written.
OK.

We do not taser and beat the **** out of ppl at all.
If you so wish I will have my son send me their tactics and I will post them here.
Not at all? Not ever? There are just a snotload of YouTube examples that show otherwise.

Also - we DO NOT have armed police walking around our streets at all.
The Firearms division is only called out in exceptional circumstances.
Walking...? OK. But like I said, armed police in the UK are still the exception to the rule, but there are, absolutely, armed police officers on the streets of the UK. BBC News - Q&A: Armed police in the UK

I am not going to get into an argument over "respecting the badge or the gun"
.
I will say though....

No matter whar side of the pond you are on - policeman are respected by the law abiding and not by the crims.
I would more or less agree. I myself am law abiding, and for the most part respect the police, but it's not a subservient, unconditional blanket respect, by any means. An increasing number of them are becoming nothing more than control-freak thugs with a badge who are themselves out of control.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I think you will have to elaborate on that one for me, cos as it stands I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I felt safe enough in my home (in England) without the need of alarms, window locks, deadlocks or anything else locks - here we have all of the above :rolleyes:


My house, in Harrogate, England, was broken into and the thieves made off with over 300lbs.

Hitler was able to do what he did because the population could not fight back. Same with Stalin, Cambodia, Vietnam, China, North Korea.

After WWII many leading Japanese military leaders where asked why they did not press their advantage at the beginning of the war. One of the main reasons given was that because the American public was armed they did not feel that they could put enough troops in to over come.

Many criminals in this country say that they fear an armed homeowner more than an armed policeman.

Keep in mind how the incest infested "royal families" came to power. By controlling their subjects with murder etc. They have controlled arm ownership from day one. Easier to control people.
Know where the term "getting caught red handed" came from? Know the penalty for getting caught red handed?

British subjects who own firearms have to jump through a zillion hoops. Does passing all those background checks earn them any respect or trust? Nope. In England, Scotland and Wales any subject who owns a firearm is subject to unannounced, unwarrented home inspections of the guns AND the ammunition counts must be within a certain percentage of what they say they own. That's freedom and trust.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Some of that was in jest, but the gist was not.

OK.

Not at all? Not ever? There are just a snotload of YouTube examples that show otherwise.

I am not going to do a tit for tat with you on youtube video's Turtle


Walking...? OK. But like I said, armed police in the UK are still the exception to the rule, but there are, absolutely, armed police officers on the streets of the UK. BBC News - Q&A: Armed police in the UK

I see exactly what I said - the firearms division of ourr police force called out when necessary.
They was increased firearms incidents ... so the firearms division was called out for a limited time only.
Only officers in this division are able to carry weapons


I would more or less agree. I myself am law abiding, and for the most part respect the police, but it's not a subservient, unconditional blanket respect, by any means. An increasing number of them are becoming nothing more than control-freak thugs with a badge who are themselves out of control.

There are indeed ppl who should never have been allowed to become police officers .... on both sides of the Atlantic.
 
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