You should all be ashamed of yourselves

[RLENT]

Nobody is asking anyone to be politicaly correct, just fair in their criticism. Comparing Israels policy towards Hamas in Gaza and South Africa's old apartheid laws are apples and oranges.

The problem isn't just Israel's policy toward Hamas, but towards the Palestinian people generally - at that point it's only apples and oranges if one is completely and utterly ignorant of the actual situation on the ground in Palestine - something that unfortunately most folks in the US actually are - since the coverage of the situation tends to highly biased (in favor of Israel) ... although that, thankfully, is beginning to change.

Trying to conflate the overall situation - by ignoring the Palestinian people generally - and focusing on various political organizations such Hamas (or Hezbollah, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or Fatah) is intellectually dishonest ... at very best.

 

[RLENT]

What else to you call an immature male other than boy?

I dunno ... boy ...

Maybe you'll tell us ... boy ...

 

[cheri1122]

Moose: the most dangerous words are the ones that are suppressed, so that people can't read [or hear] them and make up their own minds about what they mean, and whether they're true or false.

 

[davekc]

Probably an accurate observation ...

I was rather disappointed that the thread was locked - since it eliminated any possibility of a response on my part, to clarify the points I was attempting to make and bring about understanding of what was meant and intended.

It might have went out of control before you had a chance to respond. I think this thread offers a summary of what you were talking about that was more than just the referenced articles.
Sometimes things can look just a little different a day later.

 

[RLENT]

Really?....I am just wondering when the U.N. will officially grant land to the Palestinines to set up their own country?.....Hmmmm?

I'm wondering when they will step up and act just to stop the illegal settlements that Israel continues to allow (encourage actually) their citizens to undertake ... which is essentially equivalent to throwing gasoline on a bonfire ...

 

[Ragman]

. . .if one is completely and utterly ignorant of the actual situation on the ground in Palestine -

I guess that would be me as I can not find a country called Palestine on my world map.

 

[cheri1122]

What else to you call an immature male other than boy?

Lots of things - but when you are referring to a black man who happens to be the President of the United States, you should be ashamed.
Whether it's a code or a dog whistle or just 'wink-nudge', it's despicable, even from someone who seriously thinks the POTUS is a Marxist.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I'm wondering when they will step up and act just to stop the illegal settlements that Israel continues to allow (encourage actually) their citizens to undertake ... which is essentially equivalent to throwing gasoline on a bonfire ...

why should they?.....They can do no wrong in American eyes and have almost a blank check of support.....how long do we have to endure the sympathy vote?....Just because history was not kind to the Jewish people....well history has not been so kind to the Palestinines either...

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I guess that would be me as I can not find a country called Palestine on my world map.

Prior to 48 you would not have found Israel either....because the world gave them a country, more out of generousity....

 

[layoutshooter]

Lots of things - but when you are referring to a black man who happens to be the President of the United States, you should be ashamed.
Whether it's a code or a dog whistle or just 'wink-nudge', it's despicable, even from someone who seriously thinks the POTUS is a Marxist.

The word "BOY" is not racist. Get over it. To even imply that I am a racist in any way shape or form proves you know absolutely NOTHING about me. To call me or imply that I am a racist is despicable.

IF you had studied ANYTHING about Marxism you would be aware of what the child in that office is up too.

I am ashamed of NOTHING!

If you don't like my political views, IGNORE THEM. Do not accuse me of ANYTHING that you cannot prove. That WILL not be tolerated.

 

[Ragman]

Really?....I am just wondering when the U.N. will officially grant land to the Palestinines to set up their own country?.....Hmmmm?

It happened a long time ago.

On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted (resolution 181) to partition Palestine between a Jewish and an Arab state, with Jerusalem under an international regime. The Jews agreed but the Arabs did not. They called the declaration of the State of Israel "al-Nakba", the catastrophe.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

It happened a long time ago.

On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted (resolution 181) to partition Palestine between a Jewish and an Arab state, with Jerusalem under an international regime. The Jews agreed but the Arabs did not. They called the declaration of the State of Israel "al-Nakba", the catastrophe.

That could be because there was no real discussion, the US and the west literally gave away land that was not theirs to give....and created the state of Israel....

 

[Ragman]

That could be because there was no real discussion, the US and the west literally gave away land that was not theirs to give....and created the state of Israel....

Could be, I wasn't there. However, looking back at who did what to whom, won't sovle the problem.

 

[layoutshooter]

Canada voted FOR UN Resolution 181. So did Russia. It would seem that it was not ONLY the west and the US as some claim.

Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:


In favour: 33
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.


Against: 13


Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.


Abstained: 10


Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavi

 

[RLENT]

Canada voted FOR UN Resolution 181. So did Russia. It would seem that it was not ONLY the west and the US as some claim.

I dunno who is claiming that ... might just be some sort of straw man argument. Obviously, some nations probably had their own vested interests in voting for it.

One thing worth noting is that not a single Muslim or Arab nation voted in favor of it.

And course, in terms of political pressure, it doesn't take a genius to figure who the bullies might have been :

Reports of pressure in favour of the Plan


Proponents of the Plan reportedly put pressure on nations to vote yes to the Partition Plan. A telegram signed by 26 US senators with influence on foreign aid bills was sent to wavering countries, seeking their support for the partition plan. Many nations reported pressure directed specifically at them:

United States (Vote: For): President Truman later noted, "The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."

India (Vote: Against): Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru spoke with anger and contempt for the way the UN vote had been lined up. He said the Zionists had tried to bribe India with millions and at the same time his sister, Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit, had received daily warnings that her life was in danger unless "she voted right".

Liberia (Vote: For): Liberia's Ambassador to the United States complained that the US delegation threatened aid cuts to several countries. Harvey S. Firestone, Jr., President of Firestone Natural Rubber Company, with major holdings in the country, also pressured the Liberian government


Philippines (Vote: For): In the days before the vote, the Philippines' representative General Carlos P. Romulo stated "We hold that the issue is primarily moral. The issue is whether the United Nations should accept responsibility for the enforcement of a policy which is clearly repugnant to the valid nationalist aspirations of the people of Palestine. The Philippines Government holds that the United Nations ought not to accept such responsibility". After a phone call from Washington, the representative was recalled and the Philippines' vote changed.


Haiti (Vote: For): The promise of a five million dollar loan may have secured Haiti's vote for partition.

 

[Pilgrim]

The pertinant question is raised again - why didn't the Arab states allocate some of their lands for a Palestinian state when they had the chance? Answer: they don't want peace, and they don't want Israel to exist. The Palestinians are committed to the destruction of Israel, and Christianity in general.

 

[layoutshooter]

All I did was post the vote in response to OVM. I made the remark in response to his remark.

It is not a subject I studied much on. The Middle East was not my primary target for most of my career. I did not start to study that area until close to the end of my time on the job. I was more concerned with SS20's, SS24's and SS25's.

I know people from the area, both sides, all good people. Most are here because they are fed up with the mess there. Most I know don't want it to continue here. They ENJOY our freedoms.

 

[RLENT]

Other data relevant to 181:

Arab reaction
The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine. The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).

A few weeks after UNSCOP released its report, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, was quoted by an Egyptian newspaper as predicting that Palestine would be overrun by Muslim volunteers. According to the reporter, he said "Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades." This statement from October 1947 has often been incorrectly reported as having been made much later on 15 May 1948.


Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague". On 20 May 1948, Azzam told reporters "We are fighting for an Arab Palestine. Whatever the outcome the Arabs will stick to their offer of equal citizenship for Jews in Arab Palestine and let them be as Jewish as they like. In areas where they predominate they will have complete autonomy."


John Wolffe says that while Zionists tend to attribute Palestinian rejection of the plan to a mere intransigence, Arabs have always reiterated that it was rejected because it was unfair: it gave the majority of the land (56 percent) to the Jews, who at that stage legally owned only 7 percent of it, and remained a minority of the population. Mehran Kamrava also notes the disproportionate allocation under the plan, and adds that the area under Jewish control contained 45 percent of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45 percent of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. Jaffa, though geographically separated, was to be part of the Arab state.

No justice ... no peace ...

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[layoutshooter]

Maybe my friend Moose can help me out here since I am trying to remember back several years. Was not the traditional Palistine located more where modern Jordan is?

 

[RLENT]

The pertinant question is raised again - why didn't the Arab states allocate some of their lands for a Palestinian state when they had the chance?

First off, it's just a majorly retarded question straight from the get-go ... but fairly typical for you ...

Why should anyone have to allocate some of their land for a certain people who are from and reside elsewhere ... simply because a number of folks from far off lands have decided they themselves want sole ownership and possession of the homeland of said people ?

Answer: they don't want peace, and they don't want Israel to exist.

No - they do want peace ... but they aren't willing to allow themselves to robbed and dispossessed of their own lands to simply to achieve it, as a subjugated people.

The Palestinians are committed to the destruction of Israel, and Christianity in general.

Ignorant and highly uninformed - witness the ugly face of fanatical, anti-Christian Zionism:

Graffiti sprayed on a church in Latrun in September reads "Jesus is a monkey" and the names of two West Bank settlements. (Menahem Kahana / AFP/GettyImages)

Israeli settlers increase their attacks on Palestinian Christian sites

At the same time that thousands of Christian Zionist tourists descended on Jerusalem last week to display their unequivocal support for Israel, local Christian leaders say they fear a recent increase in attacks on their holy sites signals the potential for future, more extreme violence.

“Today, they attack holy sites in the night. Tomorrow, they will attack the holy sites while they are filled with people, and then [it] will end [with them] bombarding churches and mosques while people are praying,” Rifat Kassis, coordinator of Kairos Palestine, a Palestinian Christian activist organization, told The Electronic Intifada.

“If we fail to see this from now, and to stop this from now, then the whole international community is complicit with this,” he warned.

A Franciscan monastery on Mount Zion in Jerusalem was vandalized in early October, as derogatory words about Jesus were painted on the entrance gate alongside the words “Price tag” in Hebrew. “Price tag” violence is the term used to describe acts of vandalism usually carried out by Jewish-Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank in response to Israeli government decisions with which they disagree.

When The Electronic Intifada attempted to investigate the incident a few days after the graffiti had been found, the gate had been painted over, and no visitors were allowed inside the monastery as it was undergoing renovations.

The Assembly of Catholic Ordinaries in the Holy Land expressed its dismay at the incident. “More than anything, the Assembly again asks, that radical changes be made in the educational system, otherwise the same causes will produce the same effects over and over,” it said in a statement (“Franciscan convent on Mount Zion desecrated, ACOHL dismayed,” Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, 2 October).

To date, Israeli police have yet to arrest anyone in connection with the vandalism.

Hostile climate of intolerance

In recent years, Israeli extremists have vandalized Muslim holy sites throughout the West Bank and in so-called “mixed” Jewish-Palestinian cities in Israel.

In October 2011, for instance, a mosque was set on fire in the northern Bedouin town of Tuba Zangariya and the words “Death to Arabs” and “Price Tag” were spray-painted on headstones in a Muslim cemetery in Jaffa.

“The Israeli government is doing nothing in order to stop these racist people, and this fact gives this bunch of racists a green light to do anything they want,” Sami Abu Shehadeh, a Jaffa resident and member of the Tel Aviv-Jaffa municipal council, said at the time. “We are really worried. Now these people are attacking holy places; tomorrow they could also hurt people.”

Despite being condemned by most Israeli politicians, these violent acts have largely gone unpunished. In fact, according to a report by the Alternative Information Center, the Israeli police commander in the West Bank won’t prosecute the individuals responsible for four mosque arsons, despite having DNA evidence to convict them.

“We know, in at least four cases of mosque arson, whom the perpetrators are. We even got a DNA match from a matchbox near one of the mosques set on fire — but it appears this is insufficient for charges,” Major General Amos Yaakov reportedly told Hebrew news website Walla (“Police chief: we have DNA of mosque arsonist, but he won’t be charged,” Alternative News, 9 October).

The recent wave of attacks on Christian holy sites signals something new, however.

Suspected Israeli extremists also burned the door of a monastery in Latrun — halfway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv — in September, and scrawled the words “Jesus is a monkey” on the wall. The attack was likely carried out in connection to a recent evacuation of an illegal Israeli settlement outpost in the West Bank a few days earlier.

In July, Israeli Knesset (parliament) member Michael Ben-Ari tore up a copy of the New Testament. “This abominable book brought about the murder of millions of Jews in the Inquisition,” Ben-Ari reportedly said, adding, “This book and those who sent it belong in the garbage can of history.”

Years of harassment in Jerusalem

Priests from many Christian denominations have long complained of harassment in Jerusalem’s Old City, including most notably being cursed and spat on by ultra-Orthodox Jews.

“This is one of the phenomena that we as Armenians who live in this part of the Old City have been facing for many years,” explained Archbishop Aris Shirvanian, Director of the ecumenical and foreign relations department of the Armenian Patriarchate in Jerusalem.

“I believe it’s a matter of education. People that are in [the] majority and do not condone such acts, whether vandalism or spitting, they should do their duty by educating their own people to refrain from such activities which are threatening the peace in this land,” Shirvanian said.

Last November, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that a Jerusalem court threw out an indictment against an Armenian priesthood student who punched an ultra-Orthodox man in the face after the latter spat on him in Jerusalem’s Old City.

“Putting the defendant on trial for a single blow at a man who spat at his face, after suffering the degradation of being spat on for years while walking around in his church robes is a fundamental contravention of the principles of justice and decency,” the judge wrote in his ruling (“Ultra-Orthodox spitting attacks on Old City clergymen becoming daily,” Ha’aretz, 4 November 2011).

According to Archbishop Shirvanian, while spitting incidents have declined in recent months, the Israeli authorities need to do more to stem the problem. “We know that when reports are being made, [the police] sometimes arrest people, detain them for a short while and they release them. Once in a while they may restrain the guilty side from entering the Old City for a week, or two, or a month. But that’s not a real punishment.”

Attacks reflect overall Israeli impunity

According to Kairos’ Rifat Kassis, attacks on Christian holy sites are only one part of the daily attacks carried out by right-wing Israelis against Palestinians throughout the area.

“We cannot exclude these attacks from the overall attacks coming mainly from settlers against the Palestinians. This is also a sign of growing fundamentalism and extremism which should worry any democratic person, not only Christians and Muslims; this should be a matter of concern for all of us,” Kassis told The Electronic Intifada.

According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, settler attacks resulting in physical harm and property damage to Palestinians increased by 32 percent in 2011 compared to 2010 (“Israeli settler violence in the West Bank,” November 2011 [PDF]).

More than 90 percent of complaints filed by Palestinians to the Israeli police in recent years regarding settler violence have been closed without an indictment being filed, the UN agency also found.

“This is impunity. This is also what Israel is enjoying from the international community. This impunity goes for their own citizens and also for its own policies as well as a government,” Kassis said. “I think this is a message [from the Israelis which] says that, ‘This is our country. This is our land. This is our home and everyone here is a guest and we can do whatever we want.’”

Jillian Kestler-D’Amours is a reporter and documentary filmmaker based in Jerusalem. More of her work can be found at jkdamours.com.

Israeli settlers increase their attacks on Palestinian Christian sites | The Electronic Intifada