the changing climate and interstate travel

[AMonger]

If this trend of hardier winters and expanded snow zones is to continue, some changes are going to have to be made. Tulsa, f/e, just got their second deep snowstorm just as they were getting back on their feet from the first. I lived there for a couple years, and even a two inch snow will paralyze the city. And we have seen that an inch or two paralyzes Dallas and Atlanta.

I say it's time that they change their policies and order a buttload of snow removal equipment. Like it or not, if this is the new normal, they're going to have to adjust. It's not acceptable that they plead, "We're in the South; we don't need to invest in that stuff." Well, apparently, things have changed. I say it's time for the feds to intrude in an appropriate area, for once. I mean, this is interstate commerce we're talking about here, you know, really an area that's actually specified in the Constitution for them to control. I say it's time for them to tell these states that they have to do everything possible to keep the interstates open. Maybe smaller roads can be up to them, but they're going to have to buy and use as many plows and as much salt as it takes to do the job. No more 2" snows paralyzing a state. You get snow, you clean it the **** up immediately.

 

[ChrisGa23]

I agree with you. It gets old slipping and sliding on ice and snow when the state is to cheap to put down a little salt. I dont mind driving in snow but it dont take much effort to clear it from the road.

If you get 1 snow fall a year you need snow removal equipment. Should be a law .

 

[AMonger]

I agree with you. It gets old slipping and sliding on ice and snow when the state is to cheap to put down a little salt. I dont mind driving in snow but it dont take much effort to clear it from the road.

If you get 1 snow fall a year you need snow removal equipment. Should be a law .

I wonder if there's some way to amass a regional snow removal crew with lots of equipment and manpower on standby. One that could cover Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico, and Arizona. And Utah. Spread 'em out a little. Then there would be another to cover Florida, Georgia, Alabama, the Carolinas. Each state would contribute to owning and maintaining them, and pay when they're needed. If a huge snowstorm hit the whole region, that might be a problem, but if a storm was going to hit a swath of those states, the crew would position themselves where the storm was going to hit, kind of like tornado chasers chasing and positioning themselves for storms. The states would each only be responsible for covering a portion of the total cost.

 

[Brisco]

If this trend of hardier winters and expanded snow zones is to continue, some changes are going to have to be made. Tulsa, f/e, just got their second deep snowstorm just as they were getting back on their feet from the first. I lived there for a couple years, and even a two inch snow will paralyze the city. And we have seen that an inch or two paralyzes Dallas and Atlanta.

I say it's time that they change their policies and order a buttload of snow removal equipment. Like it or not, if this is the new normal, they're going to have to adjust. It's not acceptable that they plead, "We're in the South; we don't need to invest in that stuff." Well, apparently, things have changed. I say it's time for the feds to intrude in an appropriate area, for once. I mean, this is interstate commerce we're talking about here, you know, really an area that's actually specified in the Constitution for them to control. I say it's time for them to tell these states that they have to do everything possible to keep the interstates open. Maybe smaller roads can be up to them, but they're going to have to buy and use as many plows and as much salt as it takes to do the job. No more 2" snows paralyzing a state. You get snow, you clean it the **** up immediately.

The DFW area wasn't paralyzed by a couple of inches of snow, it was paralyzed by 3-4 inches of ICE and over 100 hours of temps being below sub freezing - below 20 degrees. I've been here since 1989 and this is only the second winter we've been hit hard like this since I've been here. No reason to be going all willy nilly over it, calling in the National Guard, declaring Marshall Law, and having the Government swoop in and make everything even worse.

Yes, I'm from Texas. During my days of OTR, I got stuck up in Wyoming a couple of times due to high winds and once for 3-4 feet of drifting snow on I80. Stayed in Casper for 2 nights straight due to the closing of I80. Or the time I spent 3 days in Indiana because of the Lake Effect Wind/Snow storms that dumped almost 5 feet of snow over 2-3 states 1-200 miles South of the Great Lakes. Did I call for massive government control over these incidents?? Nope........

If you get 1 snow fall a year you need snow removal equipment. Should be a law

Ridiculous statement...........I'd compare this to say, if NYC hits 100 degrees once a year, it should be law that every household, every highrise apt have an AC unit installed.

As far as REQUIRING these southern states that only have ice and snow 1-2-3 times a year to be fully equipped with snowplows and such, sure, we'll jump right on it. Hell, I'd be glad to pay more in state taxes for equipment that might be used 1 whole week the whole year. Where do I sign up at or where do I send my money???

I wonder if there's some way to amass a regional snow removal crew with lots of equipment and manpower on standby. One that could cover Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico, and Arizona. And Utah. Spread 'em out a little. Then there would be another to cover Florida, Georgia, Alabama, the Carolinas. Each state would contribute to owning and maintaining them, and pay when they're needed.

Interesting Idea, might work, but at what cost??? My opinion, it would involve too many people, too much equipment, too much logistical planning to make it work, and all that for only 1-2-3 times a year to remedy a problem/situation that only lasts 1-2-3 DAYS overall. Hell, here in the DFW area alone we have over 11,000 bridges and over 27,000 miles of roadways and freeways that need to be tended to alone.

Final Opinion...Sure, the DFW area was hit hard last week, worst storm they say we've had in over 20 years. Our 6 million plus population handled it just fine. I don't see any reason to be getting all "Government" should take over when it gets bad wacky over it either. So what if effected 100-200-1000 drivers that were just passing through. I don't see no reason to change things we've handled just fine over the years to make .0000000087% of the passer-thrus happy, know what I mean.

 

[AMonger]

The DFW area wasn't paralyzed by a couple of inches of snow, it was paralyzed by 3-4 inches of ICE and over 100 hours of temps being below sub freezing - below 20 degrees.

That's not what I heard--the ice, I mean. But let's go with your stat for the sake of argument.

I've been here since 1989 and this is only the second winter we've been hit hard like this since I've been here. No reason to be going all willy nilly over it, calling in the National Guard, declaring Marshall

(sic)

Law, and having the Government swoop in and make everything even worse.

If I'm right, they're becoming more prevalent, as I posited in my scenario. If so, things are changing, and we need to change our policies with them. Not advocating martial law or activating the National Guard necessarily, but that the states do a very basic function: plowing the interstate system. I think they're actually required to do that, but the rarity of significant snow in the South means they've been given a pass. I'm just saying, maybe we need to not give them a pass on it.

Yes, I'm from Texas. During my days of OTR, I got stuck up in Wyoming a couple of times due to high winds and once for 3-4 feet of drifting snow on I80. Stayed in Casper for 2 nights straight due to the closing of I80. Or the time I spent 3 days in Indiana because of the Lake Effect Wind/Snow storms that dumped almost 5 feet of snow over 2-3 states 1-200 miles South of the Great Lakes. Did I call for massive government control over these incidents?? Nope........

But those are overwhelming snowfalls that no one could keep up with. Like the blizzard in Chicago, when the weather service even stated a day or two in advance that snow would likely fall 3-4" per hour and that snowplows wouldn't be able to keep up. Three or four feet is one thing; a few inches is another. You might not be used to it down there now, but if it is indeed the new normal, you're going to have to adjust.

Ridiculous statement...........I'd compare this to say, if NYC hits 100 degrees once a year, it should be law that every household, every highrise apt have an AC unit installed.

Not at all analogous. One is interstate commerce. The other is a private matter.

As far as REQUIRING these southern states that only have ice and snow 1-2-3 times a year to be fully equipped with snowplows and such, sure, we'll jump right on it. Hell, I'd be glad to pay more in state taxes for equipment that might be used 1 whole week the whole year. Where do I sign up at or where do I send my money???

Look at Tulsa. What'd they get, 13-15" the first time and maybe 7 more yesterday? If that's the new normal, or if anything close to it is the new normal, that's different than a minor snowfall 1-3x a year. We're talking about interstate commerce for days or weeks at a time. Should California have their freight interrupted for days because I-40 and I-44 get snowed on? When it snows, you plow it, that's all I'm saying. And if you don't have the plows, get them. We might not be talking about snow storms that paralyze a town for a couple days because they're not accustomed to it. We might be talking about big storms that paralyze an entire region for extended periods of time if they're not plowed, like in Dallas and Oklahoma recently. I couldn't believe days had gone by and the roads hadn't been plowed, even if their equipment is limited. Heck, Chicago puts plows on garbage trucks and plows with them if the snow is really heavy.

Interesting Idea, might work, but at what cost??? My opinion, it would involve too many people, too much equipment, too much logistical planning to make it work, and all that for only 1-2-3 times a year to remedy a problem/situation that only lasts 1-2-3 DAYS overall. Hell, here in the DFW area alone we have over 11,000 bridges and over 27,000 miles of roadways and freeways that need to be tended to alone.

I'm only talking about the interstates. Sure, they should plow everything, but they should be required to get the interstate highway system moving again.

So what if effected 100-200-1000 drivers that were just passing through. I don't see no reason to change things we've handled just fine over the years to make .0000000087% of the passer-thrus happy, know what I mean.

100-200-1000? How about TENS OF THOUSANDS, including the transportation industry with shipments on their vehicles. How many travel through Texas on I-10/20/30/40 every day? And how many days was it screwed up?

 

[Turtle]

Donner's Pass on I-80 in California is closed an average of 17 days a year. I-40 between Santa Rosa and Albuquerque in New Mexico is closed an average of 11 days a year. The Interstates out west and in the central and northern plains are closed so frequently that there are permanent gates installed at many on-ramps which can be lowered or raised in a moment's notice. Poor, poor California.

There are trends and there are trends. One or two bad winters every now and again does not a trend make, and it certainly doesn't justify all of the associated costs with snow removal for a southern state to have as if they were a northern state. To expect southern states, counties, cities, towns and other municipalities to ramp up their snow removal arsenal as if they were located snug between Montana and North Dakota is a little shortsighted.

Snow-plowin' garbage truck drivers in places like NYC and Boston, where they do such things as a matter of routine, carry with them special costs of replacing damaged vehicles that the driver run over while plowing, and these guys are experienced, trained professionals. Imagine what it would be like for a Tulsa municipal garbage truck driver who performed the same task 3 days a year. Yehaw.

In any case, no one uses garbage trucks to plow an Interstate. They aren't designed for that kind of plowing. You need specialized equipment for plowing an Interstate that moves the right amount of snow in the proper direction without tearing up the road or the plow. Garbage truck plows don't do that. You need a regular cutting edge for normal operations, a “cheese grater” edge for hard pack, and a rubber edge for slush. These types of plows are not cheap, and have to be maintained and stored. All for a few day's work per year.

Henke (a plow manufacturer) recently developed a concept plow for testing by the Iowa DOT. It is a multi-bladed plow that has all three types of blades on one plow. It's insanely expensive, but is still cheaper than having to deal with three separate plows. Still, it needs to see more than a few day's use per year for it to be cost effective. And we're talking about thousands of of them across the state. Oklahoma or Texas or Missouri couldn't justify those kinds of costs unless they get the annual snowfall to demand it. It just wouldn't be cost effective. Millions spent just to keep the roads clear an extra 2-4 days a year.

(They could save all that money and spend it on upgrading the militaristic capabilities of local law enforcement agencies. har har har. )

 

[skyraider]

don't be so exuberant,,,just park ur truck,,come on in and get a good hot shower,,somebody keeps saying that at the trkstops. Ps, where are we all going in such a hurry,,,take life easy,,we all get to the last trkstop someday and then its all over..............smile

 

[xiggi]

Your talking about spending a lot of money on an "if". My opinion, thew feds need to mind their own business and let the states decide what works for them. To spend the kind of money it would take for a problem that affects three or four days of the year is a little much.

 

[nightcreacher]

The weather we are having must be the affect,or going with the other thread,effect from global warming.Thankyou Mr Gore.

 

[AMonger]

Donner's Pass on I-80 in California is closed an average of 17 days a year. I-40 between Santa Rosa and Albuquerque in New Mexico is closed an average of 11 days a year. The Interstates out west and in the central and northern plains are closed so frequently that there are permanent gates installed at many on-ramps which can be lowered or raised in a moment's notice. Poor, poor California.

But again, those are snows nobody could keep up with. They eventually catch up and reopen. But with some of the Southern states, a smaller snowfall that should be shrugged off shuts down travel. If I'm right about those becoming more frequent and becoming the new norm, something will have to change to end that. When 15" of snow falls, you expect the interstate to be fouled up and closed. Not for a routine amount, and certainly not for days. The interstate should be bone dry the next day.

There are trends and there are trends. One or two bad winters every now and again does not a trend make, and it certainly doesn't justify all of the associated costs with snow removal for a southern state to have as if they were a northern state. To expect southern states, counties, cities, towns and other municipalities to ramp up their snow removal arsenal as if they were located snug between Montana and North Dakota is a little shortsighted.

Two occurrences starts a trend. That's what the military taught me.

Now, I wouldn't have them go out and buy all this now, but I'd sure put the discussion on the radar, and after another couple of these winters, it'd be time to pull the trigger on it.

Snow-plowin' garbage truck drivers in places like NYC and Boston, where they do such things as a matter of routine, carry with them special costs of replacing damaged vehicles that the driver run over while plowing, and these guys are experienced, trained professionals. Imagine what it would be like for a Tulsa municipal garbage truck driver who performed the same task 3 days a year. Yehaw.

Perhaps, but that would be lessened if all they were required to do was the interstate. Remember, we're talking about regulation of interstate commerce, not what they do on Mulberry Lane or Broadway Street.

In any case, no one uses garbage trucks to plow an Interstate. They aren't designed for that kind of plowing. You need specialized equipment for plowing an Interstate that moves the right amount of snow in the proper direction without tearing up the road or the plow. Garbage truck plows don't do that. You need a regular cutting edge for normal operations, a “cheese grater” edge for hard pack, and a rubber edge for slush. These types of plows are not cheap, and have to be maintained and stored. All for a few day's work per year.

Again, they could do the regional thing and have some crews for the entire region. Each state would pay only a portion of the cost. So if you completely outfitted the crew with the proper equipment as you mention, each state wouldn't be paying the whole cost. Maybe 1/4th or something. So whatever interstate the storm is tracking across, that's where they'd go. That, even during a normal winter, would be much more than 3 days a year.


(They could save all that money and spend it on upgrading the militaristic capabilities of local law enforcement agencies. har har har. )[/QUOTE]

That's plenty of reason to spend the money right there.

 

[AMonger]

don't be so exuberant,,,just park ur truck,,come on in and get a good hot shower,,somebody keeps saying that at the trkstops. Ps, where are we all going in such a hurry,,,take life easy,,we all get to the last trkstop someday and then its all over..............smile

Perhaps you didn't realize, this board is about expediting, getting it there ASAP, not sitting.

 

[AMonger]

Your talking about spending a lot of money on an "if". My opinion, thew feds need to mind their own business and let the states decide what works for them. To spend the kind of money it would take for a problem that affects three or four days of the year is a little much.

Ah, but that's the rub: this is interstate commerce, which is expressly an area the feds are to be involved in. Says so right in that constitution thingy.

And if my regional plowing crew idea were used, that's easily a dozen storms that track across the southern interstates, even in a mild winter.

 

[RoadKing06]

Salt could be dropped from helicopters, or hot water heat the highways after the nuculear plants are built and the piping is implanted under the asphelt. This would keep the snow from freezing.

Arkansas was absolutely terrible trying to get across this week. I don't want to go back until after winter.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App

 

[Brisco]

Perhaps you didn't realize, this board is about expediting, getting it there ASAP, not sitting.

So I guess what you're really hinting at here is that all these Southern States need to invest in millions of dollars worth of equipment and extra personel to satisfy the traveling conditions for maybe 1-2% of the overall "OTR Drivers" out there, right?

Somewhere above you questioned my information about what it is was that actually hit these "southern" states last week. The ICE storm, not SNOW storm, we all went through would've crippled even the most/best prepared areas all over the country. It's different down here when it comes to winter storms. We don't have the 3-4-5 ft of Snow that usually falls during the winter like they do up North where snow plows work just fine when it comes to clearing the roads. If say, North Dakota, where they are very well prepared to handle snow storms, had been hit by this same ICE storm we just went through, drivers in North Dakota would've been hindered just as bad as we were down here.

FYI, we were just hit yesterday morning with 2-4 inches of Snow, not Ice. Nowhere near as bad as that Ice storm was. All travel was back to normal by noon yesterday.

 

[layoutshooter]

There are LOTS of snow shovels, they are CHEAP. There are lots of people on welfare, works for me!!

 

[ATeam]

A friend called me last night and talked about the nightmarish 15 hours he spent on the roads in the Arkansas storm. That got me thinking about this thread.

Observations:

- Arkansas really did do a terrible job of keeping the roads clear in this storm. A feeble effort was made but the snow plow and sand truck drivers were incompetent. That is understandable since they have little experience in such things.

- It is not insignificant that a terrible job was done. Numerous trucks and cars wrecked out. Millions of dollars in equipment damage, freight damage and delays occured. Injuries and maybe deaths happened too because the roads were not cleared or closed.

- The solution of parking the truck and waiting out the storm was not as easy as it sounds. My friend tried three times to park. Rest areas were closed or filled to overflowing. So too with truck stops. A Walmart lot he tried had over 100 trucks in it and was too much of a mess to safely get into. Stopping on a shoulder or ramp was also unsafe as the risk of being rear-ended was high. He judged the safest choice was to keep creeping along as best he could.

- When cities and regions get shut down by major storms, it is a catastrophic economic event, sometimes so significant that monthly economic indicators are effected. Sales and income drops because people cannot get out to shop and work. Tax revenues drop for the same reason. Those costs should be included in any cost/benefit study of buying snowplows and hiring drivers to keep the roads open.

- Closing roads in dangerous conditions is a sensible option, especially when truck parking is made available. Snow gates in western states are an example. Nevertheless, snow plows should remain available to clear the roads ASAP.

- Trucks used to plow snow have multiple uses in emergency and non-emergency situations. It's not like they stay parked until the snow flies.

- A regional, multi-state snow-removal approach makes sense. Think about the utility truck convoys that poured in from other states after Hurricane Katrina.

- Climate change refers to long term developments, very long term, longer than our lifetime. Seasonal weather is hard to predict. Next winter might be the most mild on record in 100 years. We simply don't know. In Minnesota, in my lifetime, I have seen winter days that went to -60F (not wind chill, actual temperature), and +50F. We have had winters where the snow piled high and others where there was hardly any snow at all.

- Yes, buying snow plows for southern states means spending money on an if. So does spending money on an additional fire and rescue station in a particular county and on airport security. It all boils down to priorities. How passable do we want the roads to be in what weather conditions?

- This is not an issue for southern states only. Indiana does an awful job in keeping its freeways and turnpikes safe in winter storms. I once drove through Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio in a bad storm. The roads were passable and reasonably safe in every state but Indiana because Indiana did not use salt. People died in Indiana crashes that would have not happened had the roads been salted like they were in the other states. Millions of dollars in crash damage happened in Indiana for the same reason.

- The solution to ice is simple: salt. I have driven through many ice storms because the roads were salted. Problems rise with ice when salt is not used. That does not mean salt is without its own set of negative consequences, but it is simply not true that ice cannot be dealt with. There are exceptions like an ice storm followed immediately by subzero weather, but in most cases salt clears ice if properly applied.

- In discussions such as these, it is easy to support one's points with selective memory about particular storms and weather scenarios constructed to advance one's case. No one is saying that unexpected weather events do not occur. The real question is how much do we want to spend to keep the roads open when they do, and what is the best way to spend it?

 

[greg334]

Phil,
I would somewhat agree with you but two things stick out;

1 - the economic impact is not really caused by the weather as officials like to claim. The fact that whole cities have shut down doesn't mean the shutdowns last more than a week and the impact is made by the issue of a reluctant to spend not an inability to spend.

2 - salt is not a good thing if the temps drop. Salt seems to cause a brine that can freeze when temps drop.

 

[Moot]

I wasn't in Arkansas during the ice storm nor did I have any friends there. I can only rely on what I read in news reports describing the storm. Most accounts state 2-4 inches of ice. Even snow-belt states with experienced snow removal crews would find great difficulty dealing with 2-4 inches of ice.

Phil, where were you during the Great Minnesota Halloween Blizzard of 1991? Metro area roadways were a mess for weeks after the storm. Record sub zero temperatures and 6 months of winter following the storm didn't make things any better.

- A regional, multi-state snow-removal approach makes sense. Think about the utility truck convoys that poured in from other states after Hurricane Katrina.

Utility truck convoys poured in after Katrina to repair and restore power and communications, not remove snow and ice. A few days of sunshine and 40° temperatures can reduce ice and snow build up significantly.

- Climate change refers to long term developments, very long term, longer than our lifetime.

If you believe climate change is the result of human activity then convoys of snow plows will only add to the greenhouse gas problem. By the time snowplows did arrive in southern states the melting process will probably have already begun.

I do believe southern states should budget more for snow removal and be equipped for the occasional snow fall. But to expect a state, any state to keep roads open during a major ice storm is ridiculous!

 

[RoadKing06]

We drove in that storm and it was more than dangerous. There were people who died as a result of that storm.

I don't think that there would have been 2-4" of ice, had salt been used. Had Ohio turnpike crews been in charge with all the equipment that is available to them, there would not have been the problems that there were.

We live Ohio and have driven the snow and ice storms for the past 30 years and never anything like that as an ice storm do I recall. Salt would have made the roads passable.

During that storm there were no parking places to be had. Trucks were parking where ever they could. Even parking directly in the right hand lane on I-40.

There were hundreds of trucks, cars, turned over, jack knifed. Loads were spilled on the highways. It was an absolute mess. I never want to go through that again. It took us with waiting for hours for jack knife trucks and accidents to be cleared and just pushing forward, then finally making a spot at the end of a fuel ilse for a couple hours about 22 hours to go from Texarkansas to Memphis. That was insane!

Salt would have made this a non issue and saved a lot of money and lives. I guess it is ok to put a monetary value on human lives, not in my book though.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App

 

[xiggi]

"I guess it is ok to put a monetary value on human lives, not in book though."

That is a very nice feel good statement but in the real world placing a value on life can not be avoided.