Part IV: An Opposing Viewpoint

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Wouldn't be much fun without a contrarian argument, would it? I'm just posting the link since it's so long, but there's a lot of direct quotes, some video and transcripts. I'm not necessarily espousing this publication because I haven't read the entire thing; it just offers a different take on this "moderate" Imam.

ATLAS EXCLUSIVE! GROUND ZERO MOSQUE IMAM FEISAL'S EXTREMISM EXPOSED: IN HIS OWN WORDS: "the United States has more blood on its hands than al Qaida," Elimination of Israel, the N-Word, "Fahrenheit 911" - Atlas Shrugs
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The bottom line is, those who are adamantly against the "Ground Zero" mosque are blatantly prejudiced against Muslims, all Muslims, and many are proud of that fact. These same people are looking for anything with regard to Rauf that they can point to as being extremist-like, so they can draw the direct-line conclusions that he is not only a terrorist, but a particularly evil and crafty one, so as to make you hate him, and Muslims, even more. Pamela Gellar is the HWIC (Head Wacko In Charge) and those who gulp down every morsel like they are baby birds in a nest should take a step back and closely examine their own intelligence and critical thinking abilities.

For example...

"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims."

That's a true statement.
 

witness23

Veteran Expediter
The bottom line is, those who are adamantly against the "Ground Zero" mosque are blatantly prejudiced against Muslims, all Muslims, and many are proud of that fact. These same people are looking for anything with regard to Rauf that they can point to as being extremist-like, so they can draw the direct-line conclusions that he is not only a terrorist, but a particularly evil and crafty one, so as to make you hate him, and Muslims, even more. Pamela Gellar is the HWIC (Head Wacko In Charge) and those who gulp down every morsel like they are baby birds in a nest should take a step back and closely examine their own intelligence and critical thinking abilities.

For example...

"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims."

That's a true statement.

Were you watching Hannity last night as well? I turned it on right when Ingraham started the interview with Colmes and he was saying, well trying to say, the same thing you just did above. You bleeding heart liberal you!!!

If you can stand listening to Ingraham talk over every word Colmes was trying to say you can watch part of the interview here: Colmes to Ingraham: "You are guilty of smearing a man [Rauf] by taking one sentence out of context" | Media Matters for America
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The bottom line is, those who are adamantly against the "Ground Zero" mosque are blatantly prejudiced against Muslims, all Muslims, and many are proud of that fact. These same people are looking for anything with regard to Rauf that they can point to as being extremist-like, so they can draw the direct-line conclusions that he is not only a terrorist, but a particularly evil and crafty one, so as to make you hate him, and Muslims, even more. Pamela Gellar is the HWIC (Head Wacko In Charge) and those who gulp down every morsel like they are baby birds in a nest should take a step back and closely examine their own intelligence and critical thinking abilities.
Regardless of Gellar's extreme viewpoints, the link provides the entire text of Rauf's speech and the context that everyone claims is lacking. The reader can accept her editorials at face value or reject them. The quotes and video of Imam Rauf remain accurate regardless of the source. I'll bet everyone on this site can read the various material - pro and con - and come to their own conclusions without assistance and interpretation by truth detectors.
"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims."

That's a true statement.
It's probably a true statement, but it's not a valid comparison. It's just a sound byte created for people in the MSM like Alan Colmes to grab onto and repeat ad nauseum to generate sympathy.

One only has to stop and think for a second or two to realize the United States has been in existance since 1776 while al Qaeda was created in about 1989. Considering the skirmishes we've had with muslims over the years - the Barbary Pirates for example - it wouldn't be a stretch to consider the above statement true, albeit meaningless.

Some other things to consider are (1) Imam Rauf's definition of "innocent non-Muslims". Keep in mind that the victims in the Twin Towers weren't considered "innocent" by the radical muslims. (2) How much of that muslim blood on US hands is INNOCENT muslim blood? (3) Everyone - especially the MSM - seems to conveniently forget the past military efforts on behalf of muslim nations (eg. Kosovo) and the BILLIONS of dollars in foreign aid the US pours into muslim nations every year. There weren't too many Indonesians complaining about the massive relief effort the US made on their behalf when the tsunami wiped them out several years ago.

U.S. aid to Muslim nations not paying any dividends - The Oakland Press Opinion: The best place for news in and around Oakland County

Let's not forget the innocent muslim blood on the hands of al-Queda, the Taliban and other radical muslim groups that target thier own. Muslim on muslim genocide is well documented over the years - Darfur comes to mind as one of the latest examples.

No one seems to be comparing Imam Rauf with Mullah Omar. However, that doesn't mean some of his past speeches and writings aren't above criticism. There's no reason not to be skeptical of his motives either, considering his complete lack of willingness to comprimise on the location of his mosque while simultaneously preaching a message of sensitivity, outreach and harmony between all parties.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Rauf is nowhere near the genteel voice of reason he wants people to think and the regime and MSM want to promote. He has spoken enough times in enough foreign venues for his true colors to show through. He may not be a Bin Laden but he's not without faults and should be watched very carefully.

This poor mistreated Muslims attitude some have may be applaudable but it is wrong. Distrust was earned 3000 times over. There are societies where they will be part of the majority, almost to the exclusion of all others. Our society shouldn't have to apologize and evolve into what they want. It's time to quit appeasing and accomodating and adjusting and just keep a map handy showing where the door is.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The United States MIGHT have killed more Muslims that Al Qaida has, I don't know, I doubt if there are even good HONEST numbers to go by. What about OTHER "naughty" Muslim groups that have been running around killing for years? What about Iran? How many Muslims have THEY killed? How many non-Muslims have they killed? How many did Saddam Hussain and Co. kill? I would love an accounting of those numbers.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Again with the appeasing, the accommodating and all that bs.

Where are we accommodating anyone above and beyond what we do for others in this case. We do allow some religions to continue animal sacrifices, right?

Didn't DHS just drop a lot of deportation cases for Mexicans because they "didn't commit a crime" and now are allowed to stay here. Isn't this a serious accommodation for a race while overlooking serious crime?

Get over the Mosque issue, it is not a big deal as other things are.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Sorry but it is a big deal. As long as they tell us we can't have crosses or plaques of the ten commandments or whatever while supporting and authorizing anything and everything for anyone else then it's a big deal for certain, almost as big a deal as anyone not able to recognize and acknowledge it.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I have yet to have someone come into my home and remove my crosses and my copy of the commandments.

I have yet seen anyone go to a church and tell them they can not have a cross or any religious symbols on/in their property or around it.

I do not agree with the interpretation of the separation of church and state in the modern context but I also know that if we pick and choose what religions we allow and not allow, we have doomed all of them.

The Mosque is not as big of a deal as what I mentioned before, Arlington and it is not as big of a deal as the embellishment case that was decided on in the 9th circuit court. It is a big deal when people make some stupid dumba** ignorant comments about d*mning one entire religion because of a small minority within the religion - just listen to some of the reasoning used to protest this. It is their "demands" that are hurting the underlying issue and question if we are free or not. It causes the enemy, those who want to see our downfall to gain strength within these communities already here who are going to be shutting us out as a society and become more elusive.

My question of the day is this;

Why are the Christians in fear of Jehovah Witnesses?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"Why are the Christians in fear of Jehovah Witnesses?"


Because the Jehovah Witnesses are better at knocking on door than they are?

How many guesses to I get? :p
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
A couple of points:
  • Sorry, but the Ground Zero Mosque is a REALLY big deal; to think otherwise is just unrealistic.
  • Why should we think that Christians are in fear of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Back to the mosque: Imam Rauf claims that he is not a politician, but in reality he is nothing but a politician at this point. He is spearheading a cause on behalf of Islam, dealing with city and state officials and currently on a world tour to raise money for his cause at US taxpayer expense. We should recognize the fact that there's a reason that he is inflexible in his position regarding the location of the mosque; to yield in favor of a negotiated location for this "community center" would be viewed as a defeat for Islam in the eyes of his followers and muslims in general. For him to prevail would be considered a victory for Islam: perception is reality for them.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Sorry Pilgrim, all of this proves that we can not see beyond our emotions and our illogic to actually hold up what we claim is important to us.

The subject has two parts to many of us who think it isn't a big deal, one is the religious aspect of it and one is the people behind it.

I do not side with the latter in any way and think there is a lot more to this than what we are told. I think there is some connection to some in congress and this goes back to Bush. But I do defend the former regardless what the religious happens to be. I also do not see it as a victory because it would be a victory for any religion building a house of worship.

The area has no longer is as sacred as others make it out as, as a few overseas have observed, it is our symbol of our inability to bounce back with better resolve but rather our ability to bicker over money - one person said it well just the other day "we are a country that see justice spelled with dollar signs". I happen to agree with all of that, seeing we have overcompensated for what happened and redefined a lot because of the event and aftermath while forgetting the serious lessons borne out of it.

The reason I brought up the witnesses, they seem to be a target of Christian hate on different levels. Some of them seem to be rather nice and seem to make a good point or two but learning of their past, how they have been targets, and seeing when I say no they won't stand there and argue with me, they don't seem to be what others make them out to be. Muslims seem to fall into that same thing, many don't want to learn about their religion, they don't want to be open about any differences but follow what others have said about Muslims.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Were you watching Hannity last night as well? I turned it on right when Ingraham started the interview with
No. I haven't watched or listened to Hannity in, I dunno, at least a year. He's just as tiresome as the goobers on MSNBC. I guess he's fine if you like to get all worked up and frothy because it suits the prejudices you already have, but other than that, he's pretty much useless.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Regardless of Gellar's extreme viewpoints, the link provides the entire text of Rauf's speech and the context that everyone claims is lacking. The reader can accept her editorials at face value or reject them. The quotes and video of Imam Rauf remain accurate regardless of the source. I'll bet everyone on this site can read the various material - pro and con - and come to their own conclusions without assistance and interpretation by truth detectors.
Only if the reader approaches it with non-prejudice. Most won't, either way. Those who are prejudiced against Muslims will view the material through their own rose colored glasses, looking intently for things that they can say he's lying about because if he's lying then it makes them right about their prejudice. They will look strictly for things that vilify their own beliefs, and will dismiss anything that doesn't.

It's probably a true statement, but it's not a valid comparison. It's just a sound byte created for people in the MSM like Alan Colmes to grab onto and repeat ad nauseum to generate sympathy.
An excellent example of dismissing something as irrelevant because it doesn't fit a preconceived notion. The rest of what you stated (that I won't bother to quote here) is more of the same thing. It's all a justification for the prejudice.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Sorry Pilgrim, all of this proves that we can not see beyond our emotions and our illogic to actually hold up what we claim is important to us.

The subject has two parts to many of us who think it isn't a big deal, one is the religious aspect of it and one is the people behind it.
I see your point; but the reason I'm saying that it's a big deal is because it's been turned into a big deal by politicians and the media. It officially became a big national deal when BHO made it an issue at his Ramadan dinner. That gave the media something to sink their teeth into, and things snowballed from there. Also, it could have been prevented from becoming a big deal if the Imam Rauf and his backers had agreed to sit down with Gov Paterson and some of the local officials to discuss alternative locations - but compromise is not in the muslim vocabulary.

I also agree that there's a lot of emotion that factors into this controversy. That's usually the case when conflicts arise involving religion and politics.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Also, it could have been prevented from becoming a big deal if the Imam Rauf and his backers had agreed to sit down with Gov Paterson and some of the local officials to discuss alternative locations ....
It could have been prevented from becoming a big deal if - and only if - the dimwit retards in the right-wing media hadn't been so eager to make an issue where none actually existed ($$$) .... and if their moronic followers hadn't been so eager to be led down the path of hatred ....

.... but compromise is not in the muslim vocabulary.
I gotta ask here Pilgrim: do you even actually know any Muslims on a personal basis ?

I mean really know them ..... I'm not talking about once standing next to a guy in a Flying J who was wearing a turban so you figured he was a Muslim (when he was probably just a Sikh :rolleyes: ...)

..... but really spent some time with them ... socially ?

.... know them and their families ?
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Those who are prejudiced against Muslims will view the material through their own rose colored glasses, looking intently for things that they can say he's lying about because if he's lying then it makes them right about their prejudice. They will look strictly for things that vilify their own beliefs, and will dismiss anything that doesn't.

An excellent example of dismissing something as irrelevant because it doesn't fit a preconceived notion. The rest of what you stated (that I won't bother to quote here) is more of the same thing. It's all a justification for the prejudice.
How could you even think such a thing ? :eek:

Everybody knows that the "Kill-them-all-and-let-Allah-sort-em-out" crowd isn't prejudiced .... even in the slightest .... :rolleyes:
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Again with the appeasing, the accommodating and all that bs.
Yup ... :rolleyes:

Where are we accommodating anyone above and beyond what we do for others in this case.
... 'zactly ... ;)

Get over the Mosque issue, it is not a big deal as other things are.
No, the building of it wouldn't have been ..... but if it isn't built solely because of religion, then it will be a very big deal .....

I can't think of a better way to make Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda right ......
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Rauf is nowhere near the genteel voice of reason he wants people to think and the regime and MSM want to promote. He has spoken enough times in enough foreign venues for his true colors to show through.
Got any examples that you specifically had in mind ?

He may not be a Bin Laden but he's not without faults and should be watched very carefully.
Wow ... now that there is utterly profound Arch ... errr ... I mean Leo .....

Being "not without faults" = "should be watched very carefully" .....

I can say with absolute certainty (and I know I'm not alone in this) I would feel that, from my perspective, Rauf probably needs much less watching than you do .....

Very much less ...

There are societies where they will be part of the majority, almost to the exclusion of all others.
They ?

They who ?

Our society shouldn't have to apologize and evolve into what they want.
Hmmmm ... what if .... nah, nevermind ....

... errr ..... I mean ... what if .... what they want, is what we want ?

Like say, religious freedom, for example ?

Sorry but it is a big deal.
Greg, I was wrong - apparently it is a big deal ...... at least for those for whom Viagra is a requirement, and not an option ...

As long as they tell us we can't have crosses .....
Leo,

Please enlighten me - who is this "they" you seem to be constantly referring to ?

You seem to do this quite a bit ... with the "they" .... and the "them" ....

BTW .... does the entirety of the human race quite often seem like one large, hostile generality to you ? (as opposed to being composed of single individuals :rolleyes:)
 
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