Dr. George Tiller, well known late-term abortionist, was killed recently in a Wichita church by a lone gunman. Dr. Tiller became wealthy performing over 60,000 grisly late-term abortions. While the gunman will face a single charge of homocide, Dr. Tiller's personal Holocaust against babies has ended.
Late-term abortionist killed
- Thread starter aristotle
- Start date
Murder of one or even 60,000 does NOT justify the murder. While I understand the emotion I do NOT admire the act. Just as nothing can justify the gunning down of un-armed soldiers in Little Rock. Wrong is wrong. I do have to say that so-called "Doctor" was a VILE person. Hitler would have been proud of him. I am sure that Obama was.
There is one very sad and unfortunate fact here, our Courts, NOT the Congress, has decided that killing babies is legal. That disgusting man who killed all those babies did so with the blessings of our Government. That is a VERY sorry thing to say about a government or a people. That ANY government on the face of this earth could condone the killing of babies for non-medical reasons, is beyond belief. I am ashamed of it as a human being and see NO differnece between killing babies and what went on in the Camps during WWII. The killing of innocent, helpless human beings, is appalling. The ONLY thing worse than the government approval of this and a so-called "Doctor" who would be a willing participant is the "mother" that would kill her own child. Makes me want to puke. 
greg334
Veteran Expediter
That is killing, not murder, two different things and a completely different issue.
According to the dictionary, murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. Abortion, being lawful, isn't murder, and calling it such is inflammatory, as well as inaccurate. Ditto for referring to the fetuses as babies - they are not. I've seen them firsthand [as a nurse, not a patient]. The overwhelming majority of abortions occur in the first trimester - so called 'late term' abortions are rarely performed, and then only with good reason.
If you believe that killing is wrong, then you must oppose war and capital punishment along with abortion.
If you believe that the exceptions made against killing for war and capital punishments are justified, then you must allow that abortion can be as well.
You can't have it both ways.
If you believe that killing is wrong, then you must oppose war and capital punishment along with abortion.
If you believe that the exceptions made against killing for war and capital punishments are justified, then you must allow that abortion can be as well.
You can't have it both ways.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
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Well Cheri, I don’t get too involved with this subject for a lot of reasons but here is something there is a distinct difference between murder and killing, where as killing is a taking of a life with a purpose, like protection, murder is not. If you want an in depth philosophical answer why, then you will have to look on the Internet outside of Websters. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Not by any stretch of the imagination, there is an aspect that many miss, it is not legal in the sense of legal, there is no law that says it is and there is no right to the procedure under the constitution, you can’t self abort the baby, and there are laws on the books for third party involvement. But the privacy of what is going is the real issue and the basis for the court cases. Roe V Wade was based on the state being involved between a doctor and the patient and the court said there is no right of the state to intervene in such cases but that has been usurped through the anti-suicide movement which came out of Kevorkian and more recently with the parents of a child who refused medical treatment, there is a privacy issue involved with all of this but a double standard exists when it has to with abortion. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]I have seen them first hand too, I can say more than you have. I know the differences and seen the results between what stage of the kid was in when the procedure was done and what procedure was used to destroy it. I worked at one of the three labs in the region that handled the verification of the abortion for Medicaid and other insurance companies. At the peak of company, more than a 150 a night came in just for Medicaid from all the clinics and some of the most gruesome stuff I have ever seen in my life was in the histology section of the lab where the actual removal and verification too place. Nurses don’t come close to seeing any of it. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]There is a reason for war, there is a reason for capital punishment, both serve a purpose to protect and defend innocent people. IF there were no one to defend us, we would be living under a dictator or ruler who would not value life. If we didn’t put to death people like Manson and others, we would be living in fear and the innocents among us would perish. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The difference here is that Abortion is a political tool and most people who believe in this imaginary right are sadly fooled into believing that it is part of our God given right as citizens. There are no real rights when courts get involved, and there are no winners or losers on the issue except all of us when we take sides. I don’t speak much of it because it simply is a twisted argument that can’t be won among us, but has to be fixed at a higher level through us forcing the return of our voice as citizens and allowed to return where the individual actually has the right to choose. [/FONT]
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Well Cheri, I don’t get too involved with this subject for a lot of reasons but here is something there is a distinct difference between murder and killing, where as killing is a taking of a life with a purpose, like protection, murder is not. If you want an in depth philosophical answer why, then you will have to look on the Internet outside of Websters. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Not by any stretch of the imagination, there is an aspect that many miss, it is not legal in the sense of legal, there is no law that says it is and there is no right to the procedure under the constitution, you can’t self abort the baby, and there are laws on the books for third party involvement. But the privacy of what is going is the real issue and the basis for the court cases. Roe V Wade was based on the state being involved between a doctor and the patient and the court said there is no right of the state to intervene in such cases but that has been usurped through the anti-suicide movement which came out of Kevorkian and more recently with the parents of a child who refused medical treatment, there is a privacy issue involved with all of this but a double standard exists when it has to with abortion. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]I have seen them first hand too, I can say more than you have. I know the differences and seen the results between what stage of the kid was in when the procedure was done and what procedure was used to destroy it. I worked at one of the three labs in the region that handled the verification of the abortion for Medicaid and other insurance companies. At the peak of company, more than a 150 a night came in just for Medicaid from all the clinics and some of the most gruesome stuff I have ever seen in my life was in the histology section of the lab where the actual removal and verification too place. Nurses don’t come close to seeing any of it. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]There is a reason for war, there is a reason for capital punishment, both serve a purpose to protect and defend innocent people. IF there were no one to defend us, we would be living under a dictator or ruler who would not value life. If we didn’t put to death people like Manson and others, we would be living in fear and the innocents among us would perish. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The difference here is that Abortion is a political tool and most people who believe in this imaginary right are sadly fooled into believing that it is part of our God given right as citizens. There are no real rights when courts get involved, and there are no winners or losers on the issue except all of us when we take sides. I don’t speak much of it because it simply is a twisted argument that can’t be won among us, but has to be fixed at a higher level through us forcing the return of our voice as citizens and allowed to return where the individual actually has the right to choose. [/FONT]
tallcal101
Veteran Expediter
If all life is sacred,and stem cells (some call them babies) can cure the most horrible of the slow death illness's that occure with regularity ,should stem cell reseach be banned?
If a human is breathing but in a brain dead condition, is this a life worth saving? Is it ethical to pull the plug without a signed document from the patiant giving permission to end their life?
How is an embryo that has not sucked air and lives on the blood of its Mother donner a life anymore then the examples above? It's the chicken or the egg everytime.
It seems the definition of life,and the quality of life, has so many meanings that society can only make reasonable choices based on the circumstance and the facts at hand.
Since God is an inanimate object based on each individuals perception of that object,and Jesus has yet to make his appearence to set the record straight,I guess religion is not going to give the definitve answer on what is and is not life. So, it's once again a personal choice in a free society.Why is it any less the taking a life to un plug for humaitaruian reasons (take God out of the equation) then it is to make a personal choice to abort. Both lives (if the standard is embyos are life) are of equal importance and niether can sustain a meaningful life on their own.Seems kind of a no brainer to me.
But it's certaily murder when a nut case decides he's more correct then the courts and blows away an innocent human being.And this Doctor was an innocent human being by societies current standard. If you don't like the law change it.If you still don't like the law after you have tried to change it go live in the Congo where nobody cares what you think or what you do and chaos rules the day. NOBODY IS ABOVE THE LAW NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY THUMP THE BIBLE AND THREATEN TO SHOOT PEOPLE IF THEY DON'T GET THEIR WAY. We are a society of laws,love it or leave it (to coin a grand old GOP/NRA slogan).
If a human is breathing but in a brain dead condition, is this a life worth saving? Is it ethical to pull the plug without a signed document from the patiant giving permission to end their life?
How is an embryo that has not sucked air and lives on the blood of its Mother donner a life anymore then the examples above? It's the chicken or the egg everytime.
It seems the definition of life,and the quality of life, has so many meanings that society can only make reasonable choices based on the circumstance and the facts at hand.
Since God is an inanimate object based on each individuals perception of that object,and Jesus has yet to make his appearence to set the record straight,I guess religion is not going to give the definitve answer on what is and is not life. So, it's once again a personal choice in a free society.Why is it any less the taking a life to un plug for humaitaruian reasons (take God out of the equation) then it is to make a personal choice to abort. Both lives (if the standard is embyos are life) are of equal importance and niether can sustain a meaningful life on their own.Seems kind of a no brainer to me.
But it's certaily murder when a nut case decides he's more correct then the courts and blows away an innocent human being.And this Doctor was an innocent human being by societies current standard. If you don't like the law change it.If you still don't like the law after you have tried to change it go live in the Congo where nobody cares what you think or what you do and chaos rules the day. NOBODY IS ABOVE THE LAW NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY THUMP THE BIBLE AND THREATEN TO SHOOT PEOPLE IF THEY DON'T GET THEIR WAY. We are a society of laws,love it or leave it (to coin a grand old GOP/NRA slogan).
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Well Andy, the problem with Stem Cells is simple the science is out on it with more research needed and I would say OK use what is there but not make a habit of farming them.
Pulling the plug? That is left up to the family, a privacy issue and only a privacy issue. The state in other parts of the world, England for example will intervene if there is a funding issue.
I agree with life, quality of life issue.
As for religion, I am not trying to approach this from a religious position, it is a more or less legal issue for me. The people who think there are rights involved miss the point that this opens the door for abuse and restrictions on medical issues, not just abortion. There are no rights, it is about privacy and the funny thing is when Universal health care and electronic records are forced on us, privacy is gone.
As for the 'murder' of this doctor, I don't view that way at all, he choose to do something and knew the risks and took the chance. If he wasn't tauted as a hero in the media, I could have sympathy for him but because they put him above others and treated him as innocent, I can't.
The problem is that this is not a law, there is nothing to change in the law unless congress and the president force the issue to be re-decided by the court or sanction the verdict through legisltation - both legal. The problem is the issue is too emotional, mostly from the left not from the right and until people understand what it is really about in the courts, there will be no middle ground to change a thing.
So no one is above the law? How about Sandy Berger? Shouldn't he be treated as a spy instead of a plain low level felon?
Pulling the plug? That is left up to the family, a privacy issue and only a privacy issue. The state in other parts of the world, England for example will intervene if there is a funding issue.
I agree with life, quality of life issue.
As for religion, I am not trying to approach this from a religious position, it is a more or less legal issue for me. The people who think there are rights involved miss the point that this opens the door for abuse and restrictions on medical issues, not just abortion. There are no rights, it is about privacy and the funny thing is when Universal health care and electronic records are forced on us, privacy is gone.
As for the 'murder' of this doctor, I don't view that way at all, he choose to do something and knew the risks and took the chance. If he wasn't tauted as a hero in the media, I could have sympathy for him but because they put him above others and treated him as innocent, I can't.
The problem is that this is not a law, there is nothing to change in the law unless congress and the president force the issue to be re-decided by the court or sanction the verdict through legisltation - both legal. The problem is the issue is too emotional, mostly from the left not from the right and until people understand what it is really about in the courts, there will be no middle ground to change a thing.
So no one is above the law? How about Sandy Berger? Shouldn't he be treated as a spy instead of a plain low level felon?
tallcal101
Veteran Expediter
I think you make my point Greg. If it is not the law,then it is a personal moral choice,a right. No two people share the exact same moral make up,so why is it a crime one way ot the other?It's no different with abortion then it is pulling the plug? At what point is it life and at what point is it not? A personal choice and a right to decide within reason.
As to tyring to figure out when a politician is or is not above the law,good luck.However,a brazen act of premeditated murder of an innocent human being is not an isolated case that can be open for discussion . It's murder,it demeans us a free society everytime it happens regardless of the motive or the intent.Don't care if it's gang bangers over $10.00 worth of crank or an anti abortion nut case. I don't happen to think the press has treated this Doctor as a fallen hero at all.But then again I don't think and never have thought that the mainstream press is left wing dominated. I know others have a different opinion on this.
Get out of the truck this weekend.
As to tyring to figure out when a politician is or is not above the law,good luck.However,a brazen act of premeditated murder of an innocent human being is not an isolated case that can be open for discussion . It's murder,it demeans us a free society everytime it happens regardless of the motive or the intent.Don't care if it's gang bangers over $10.00 worth of crank or an anti abortion nut case. I don't happen to think the press has treated this Doctor as a fallen hero at all.But then again I don't think and never have thought that the mainstream press is left wing dominated. I know others have a different opinion on this.
Get out of the truck this weekend.
Live egg plus live sperm creating live embryo is life. Arguments made that first/second trimester abortion is ok since the baby (ask any mother who isn't allowing her baby to be murdered if that's her baby in her belly or her fetus in her belly) isn't viable on it's own are bunk. If viability without an umbilical is a requirement of life then no astronaut or scuba diver is alive.
Capital punishment isn't murder. The individual being executed willfully forfeited their right to life by an illegal/criminal action.
Disagree with me all you want because there has to be someone on the wrong side or my coin isn't a coin. Oh, and Cal, even though I've made logical arguments for my position I'm sure you'll want to label it extremist red neck raving or whatever that phrase is you like to label me with.
Capital punishment isn't murder. The individual being executed willfully forfeited their right to life by an illegal/criminal action.
Disagree with me all you want because there has to be someone on the wrong side or my coin isn't a coin. Oh, and Cal, even though I've made logical arguments for my position I'm sure you'll want to label it extremist red neck raving or whatever that phrase is you like to label me with.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
I don't think I did Andy...read on...
Not a moral choice, most of the time morality doesn't fit into an abortion, selfishness does however. But the real issue is that there is no law, there is a court ruling which in itself removes the rights of the people to decide what their law should be.
For example your state has people in it that voted against gay marriage, it is their right to vote, and vote the way they want but now the court of your state has actually told the people that their vote doesn't count by allowing a court case to go through. I know the people don't get this but they are stupid not impeaching the governor and recalling their state reps for not impeaching the supreme court on this issue, they don't get it.
If Roe v. wade is overturned, we didn't lose a thing other than what comes down to a convinence to a lot and a money maker to a lot more.
What I find really funny is that many of the proponits of all of this don't think enough to understand that when they try to shut the opposition down, it really takes a nick out of their rights. Slowly it will catch up to all of them and we will be left with the results of what id called a democracy. Honestly Andy I don't think you want a real democracy because then things like Roe v. Wade will be overturned not by the courts but by the people with a majority of the people running the show.
Actually I agree with the rest of what you are saying, murder is murder any which way you look at it but the abortion thing it is so twisted that makes no sense sometimes.
I am out of the truck, I am every weekend now and it is a lot of fun being home on the weekends after making a lot of money.....
Simply because something is legal doesn't make it right. Slavery was America's original sin and it was legal for 250 years.
Abortion is the great national sin of contemporary America. Yes, it is legal... but most people would vote it out of existence if the issue was put to a national referendum.
Sometimes the "law" is an A.S.S. Future generations will look back on this practice with horror. While we have made great advances in science and technology, human morality is still roughly equivalent to that of other primates around the planet.
Abortion is the great national sin of contemporary America. Yes, it is legal... but most people would vote it out of existence if the issue was put to a national referendum.
Sometimes the "law" is an A.S.S. Future generations will look back on this practice with horror. While we have made great advances in science and technology, human morality is still roughly equivalent to that of other primates around the planet.
tallcal101
Veteran Expediter
Greg,I don't have a strong opinion on Arnold one way or the other.It was Pete Wilson who sold this state down the river with the minority mess.He was a crook and used his connections to rezone his way into being able to letthe minority basically filibuster the state senate. He was a scandle waiting to happen. With Willie Brown as the leader of the majoity nothing got done.What's going on now is not Arnolds fault.He's a guy who tries to get it done over the dead bodies of a locked up state govenment.
Having delivered two kids,I'm keenly aware of the miriacle of the first gurggle and the natural abilityto feed seconds out of the womb.It's a tough call.However,murder is a very strong word when it involves a womans right to have the final decision.I see both sides.It's to heady a call to let the wing nuts run the show,on either side so it becomes an issue settled in the courts for the time being.
Leo,I'm done for the time being slugging out with you.I'm not going to bring you over,I'm not going to back off on my opinions and issues and it will be what it will be.I believe your wrong on most things,but what else in new.I've got things to say and if they invoke your wrath it only feeds my determination to make my point in a different way.I still maintain you have a great deal more anger in your posts then previously noted.It's a measure of the climate that this election has evoked in some groups. I honestly did not see it comong.I stayed off this site for 7 months. and noted an extreme change in the heat in the kitchen when I returned.It sparked a reaction,perhaps an over reaction to the daily debate on my part.
Having delivered two kids,I'm keenly aware of the miriacle of the first gurggle and the natural abilityto feed seconds out of the womb.It's a tough call.However,murder is a very strong word when it involves a womans right to have the final decision.I see both sides.It's to heady a call to let the wing nuts run the show,on either side so it becomes an issue settled in the courts for the time being.
Leo,I'm done for the time being slugging out with you.I'm not going to bring you over,I'm not going to back off on my opinions and issues and it will be what it will be.I believe your wrong on most things,but what else in new.I've got things to say and if they invoke your wrath it only feeds my determination to make my point in a different way.I still maintain you have a great deal more anger in your posts then previously noted.It's a measure of the climate that this election has evoked in some groups. I honestly did not see it comong.I stayed off this site for 7 months. and noted an extreme change in the heat in the kitchen when I returned.It sparked a reaction,perhaps an over reaction to the daily debate on my part.
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Telling someone what they can and cannot do with their own body is a moral outrage. You can justify it any way you like, but it won't be any less of an outrage.
And I'm not even for abortion. Abortion is just awful. I've actually talked one person out of getting one. That was 10 years ago, when she was 18, and she has thanked me for that several times over the years. To date, I have never met one person who has had an abortion and has not regretted it every single day since it happened. Not one. It should be discouraged, absolutely, but no one should be told that they shall have the baby, any more than someone should be told that they shall not have the baby. That is a decision that needs to be reached by the pregnant woman alone, possibly along with the one who got her pregnant, as he has a say in it, too, and not forced on her by someone else. If you think abortion is wrong, fine, don't have one. Anything beyond that is sticking your nose where it doesn't belong. MYOB.
And I'm not even for abortion. Abortion is just awful. I've actually talked one person out of getting one. That was 10 years ago, when she was 18, and she has thanked me for that several times over the years. To date, I have never met one person who has had an abortion and has not regretted it every single day since it happened. Not one. It should be discouraged, absolutely, but no one should be told that they shall have the baby, any more than someone should be told that they shall not have the baby. That is a decision that needs to be reached by the pregnant woman alone, possibly along with the one who got her pregnant, as he has a say in it, too, and not forced on her by someone else. If you think abortion is wrong, fine, don't have one. Anything beyond that is sticking your nose where it doesn't belong. MYOB.
There are very few legitimate reasons for abortion. There is no excuse for getting pregnate these days. We knew way back when I was young that certian "ADULT" actions directly lead to babies. Yes, the sex drive is strong, you brain is stronger. I am sick and tired to hearing that things are just too tough to over come. When you CHOOSE to partake in certian acts you have a responsibility to live with the results. Killing a healthy developing baby for birth control reasons is disgusting and should not be legal.
I have no problems with abortion to save the life of the mother. I understand and can accept it in cases of rape or incest. There are NO other valid reasons. There are more than enough people out there looking to adopt babies. Costs will be covered.
How low can we sink as a Country? Yes, I DO consider it murder. In my mind there is NO difference in the targeting and killing of developing humans and the targeting of the Twin Towers on 9/11.
As to the so-called doctors that do the killing, what ever happened to "Do NO harm"? Facts are facts and it IS a fact that the ONLY way to abort a baby is to KILL it. It IS alive. I am speaking only in science not religious terms.
I spent much of my life doing everything in my power to AVOID killing. We struggled for years to NOT fight the
"Big One" with the Russians. When targeting we did everything possible to avoid killing innocent people. Then to watch the targeting of the most innocent of all is beyond my abilty to comprehend.
The best answer is keep it in your pants. IF you are sooo weak that you just are not able to control yourself, there is good protection available. There has been for years. IF you are sooo stupid to NOT take precautions, put the "results of conception" up for adoption. BOTH parties, male and female, SHOULD be responsible for thier actions. Start acting responsible. It IS possible.
I have no problems with abortion to save the life of the mother. I understand and can accept it in cases of rape or incest. There are NO other valid reasons. There are more than enough people out there looking to adopt babies. Costs will be covered.
How low can we sink as a Country? Yes, I DO consider it murder. In my mind there is NO difference in the targeting and killing of developing humans and the targeting of the Twin Towers on 9/11.
As to the so-called doctors that do the killing, what ever happened to "Do NO harm"? Facts are facts and it IS a fact that the ONLY way to abort a baby is to KILL it. It IS alive. I am speaking only in science not religious terms.
I spent much of my life doing everything in my power to AVOID killing. We struggled for years to NOT fight the
"Big One" with the Russians. When targeting we did everything possible to avoid killing innocent people. Then to watch the targeting of the most innocent of all is beyond my abilty to comprehend.
The best answer is keep it in your pants. IF you are sooo weak that you just are not able to control yourself, there is good protection available. There has been for years. IF you are sooo stupid to NOT take precautions, put the "results of conception" up for adoption. BOTH parties, male and female, SHOULD be responsible for thier actions. Start acting responsible. It IS possible.