If this is gong to be a Christian nation...

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don’t want to do it.”

- Mr Stephen Colbert

Don't ya just love it when someone puts your thoughts into words better than you ever could?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don’t want to do it.”

- Mr Stephen Colbert

Don't ya just love it when someone puts your thoughts into words better than you ever could?

Help does not mean provide. The best way to help the poor is to help them sustain themselves. What we call welfare is not help, it condemns the poor to that life. Teach, not give. A hand up is worth thousands more than a hand out.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Welfare does not "condemn the poor to that life", as many have received it temporarily, then gone on to gainful employment and self sufficiency, as it should be. [As some pretend never ever happens, or ever did.]
What condemns the poor is a lack of jobs that pay enough to escape dependency, period. People who work for low pay are condemned to poverty by forces beyond their control, and shaming them for it is small minded and counter productive, IMO.
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
People who work for low pay are condemned to poverty by forces beyond their control . . .

It sounds like you are describing a socialist economy as that statement does not apply to our country.

In America we have complete control over our economic success. The normal process is often to find a low paying entry level job, then work hard and work smart to earn promotions to the higher paying "livable" wage.

Today, some people seem to think that they can obtain a low paying job then protest, strike and walk out to force their employer to pay them more than the job is worth. This method is much easier than actually working for it. Many people are drawn to the easiest path and welfare has fallen short in addressing that reality.

There are winners and losers in our economy. That is an inherent truth about capitalism. Those who continue to work for low pay are the "losers" in our system. Our altruistic liberal electorate along with some compassionate conservatives have voted to allow our Government to use our taxes to provide temporary assistance to those people in trouble. As with most government programs it has grown out of control and has become something that it was never intended to be. A place for some lower income "losers" in our capitalist system to park themselves, take the easy way out and avoid working.

I.M.H.O. *
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The problem isn't helping. The problem is helping forever, multi-generations in some cases. The problem is helping every criminal that can set foot on our soil. The problem is requiring nothing in return. The problem is providing more than necessities. The problem is those who can't or won't see the many problems.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
The problem isn't helping. The problem is helping forever, multi-generations in some cases.
Exactly! I'm not against welfare. There will always be people that are either physically or mentally unemployable. For the others, get a job. For low paying entry level jobs the government can supplement the disparity. For people with children, the government can offer child care vouchers. Same for transportation needs. Work for your money, whether it comes from the government, the private sector or both.

Johnson's Great Society rewards people for not working. Why work if you can make as much or more by not working? Women are rewarded for having children. More children more money.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
He probably should have read just a little farther. ;)

Thessalonians 3:12
12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.4
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Compassion for the "poor" is something that must to be tempered with one reality, the ONLY way to help, is to help them to learn to help themselves. We must quit encouraging people to accept handouts and show them how to become productive. Becoming a "kept person" destroys the spirit. It often leads to a feelings of helplessness, and despair. Man needs a purpose. Without a purpose Man is unhappy, He wonders about, lost, He loses respect for himself. That often leads to anger, crime increases. It is not poverty that is the cause, it is the loss of purpose.

The goal of any program SHOULD be ONLY to raise up those who need it. That SHOULD be done, by example, encouragement and teaching. Government make work programs do not work, long term. The process is far better handled without the government. Helping people to succeed is not in the best interest of the government.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
It sounds like you are describing a socialist economy as that statement does not apply to our country.

That statement didn't apply until the past few decades, but if you believe it isn't true now, you might need to broaden your sources of information.
The shift from a manufacturing to a retail economy was maybe going to happen anyway, but the offshoring of jobs to benefit from cheap third world labor intensified it. The shift in corporate culture from satisfying stakeholders to shareholders meant the jobs that remain pay the absolute minimum possible, and are often part time, to maximize profit [and the bonuses to management & shareholders.] To make it worse [for the workers], the hours are frequently irregular, or 'as needed', so they can't even hope to find a second job to supplement their measly pay, as we used to do. And yes, it used to be the entry level job was followed by better jobs, but those jobs don't exist any more, remember? Customer service is in India now, not in Indiana.
Just today I read yet another report saying the jobs replacing those that have disappeared are heavy into fast food and temp agencies - neither of which pays a living wage, or affords the opportunity to get more education, if one could pay for it, which isn't likely. Those who continue to work at low paying jobs do it because they don't have a choice, and pretending they do is just willful ignorance. FYI: most people getting government help are working, not parked somewhere, taking the easy way out. [Anyone who thinks it's easy to be poor has never been there, I promise. It's dam hard work, figuring out what to pay, when there is never enough to cover needs, much less wants: fix the car, or the washing machine? Buy shoes for one kid, or take the other to the dentist?]
Our corrupt cronyism infested electorate have allowed our government to subsidize corporate greed by offering tax incentives in exchange for more low paying jobs, and then having to subsidize the workers with food stamps so their kids can eat. It's disgraceful, how much the working class has lost in the last 3 decades, and how the more fortunate are continuing to heap scorn upon them too.

One more misconception: government aid is granted by the states, in cooperation with the feds, and neither is what anyone would call generous towards the poor, especially since the big reform mandated when Clinton was POTUS. There are strict limits on how long one can collect welfare, and lifetime caps, and job/education requirements as well. I read of some of those requirements being 'relaxed' a few years ago, at the request of many state governors, who "wanted more flexibility in administering funds". If you think they wanted to give poor people more money, then you're just plain off your rocker, is all I can say.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
It sounds like you are describing a socialist economy as that statement does not apply to our country.

That statement didn't apply until the past few decades, but if you believe it isn't true now, you might need to broaden your sources of information.
The shift from a manufacturing to a retail economy was maybe going to happen anyway, but the offshoring of jobs to benefit from cheap third world labor intensified it. The shift in corporate culture from satisfying stakeholders to shareholders meant the jobs that remain pay the absolute minimum possible, and are often part time, to maximize profit [and the bonuses to management & shareholders.] To make it worse [for the workers], the hours are frequently irregular, or 'as needed', so they can't even hope to find a second job to supplement their measly pay, as we used to do. And yes, it used to be the entry level job was followed by better jobs, but those jobs don't exist any more, remember? Customer service is in India now, not in Indiana.
Just today I read yet another report saying the jobs replacing those that have disappeared are heavy into fast food and temp agencies - neither of which pays a living wage, or affords the opportunity to get more education, if one could pay for it, which isn't likely. Those who continue to work at low paying jobs do it because they don't have a choice, and pretending they do is just willful ignorance. FYI: most people getting government help are working, not parked somewhere, taking the easy way out. [Anyone who thinks it's easy to be poor has never been there, I promise. It's dam hard work, figuring out what to pay, when there is never enough to cover needs, much less wants: fix the car, or the washing machine? Buy shoes for one kid, or take the other to the dentist?]
Our corrupt cronyism infested electorate have allowed our government to subsidize corporate greed by offering tax incentives in exchange for more low paying jobs, and then having to subsidize the workers with food stamps so their kids can eat. It's disgraceful, how much the working class has lost in the last 3 decades, and how the more fortunate are continuing to heap scorn upon them too.

One more misconception: government aid is granted by the states, in cooperation with the feds, and neither is what anyone would call generous towards the poor, especially since the big reform mandated when Clinton was POTUS. There are strict limits on how long one can collect welfare, and lifetime caps, and job/education requirements as well. I read of some of those requirements being 'relaxed' a few years ago, at the request of many state governors, who "wanted more flexibility in administering funds". If you think they wanted to give poor people more money, then you're just plain off your rocker, is all I can say.

This is what happens when you have the highest corporate tax rates in a global economy. Sure, they get tax breaks to offset some of it, but that savings get burnt up in government regulations and mandates. That is why most operate offshore in some capacity. Have to remember as well, many of these US companies are now foreign owned.
It is easy to blame "big business", but when you look at total GDP, they don't represent the large percentage that is implied. That doesn't mean they are without fault.
Shareholders to drive a lot of those decisions, but then who benefits that is a shareholder? Many are unions and retirees. It becomes a complicated picture.
Same with raising the minimum wage too high too fast. All that does is impact the low wage earner. McDonalds and BK are already testing full automation in some stores. To do what, replace workers as automation is much cheaper.
Education and ambition are the only way you can address this type of problem on a personal level. We are 17 trillion in the whole now. If you take every penny they currently make, you aren't even close to solving the problem.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It's so much easier to just blame the corporations and CEO's though.
 
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WanderngFool

Active Expediter
Tallying up the score so far I'm getting 0 for Colbert option 1 and 0 for Colbert option 2. I suppose he should have included option 3 - that the son of God was naive, misguided or in some other way just plain wrong. Can't accuse anyone here of having low self esteem, that's for sure.

I like option 1 myself. Pretending Jesus was as selfish as we are is kind of fun. We can pretend that he didn't eject the one-percenters from the temple. Nope, he threw the poor people out. And it makes perfect sense. Cozying up to rich people makes a lot of sense and let's face it, when you're rubbing elbows with the hoi polloi, poor people don't help your image. From lacking fashion sense to not being up to par on personal hygiene, the poor can be a real bummer.

We could even pretend that he was a teacher and made his living from seminars designed to help the one-percenters cope with the special problems they have in any age.

"How to hide money so deep in Caribbean banks that even the IRS can't find it" might have been popular.

"Corporate Welfare - socializing the risk and privatizing the rewards" - another good one.

"Hating - just a deeper form of love" - for the Fox News crowd

"It's time we invented the pocket - so we'll have a place to keep the Congressmen that we buy" - can't be a one-percenter without this one.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Tallying up the score so far I'm getting 0 for Colbert option 1 and 0 for Colbert option 2. I suppose he should have included option 3 - that the son of God was naive, misguided or in some other way just plain wrong. Can't accuse anyone here of having low self esteem, that's for sure.

I like option 1 myself. Pretending Jesus was as selfish as we are is kind of fun. We can pretend that he didn't eject the one-percenters from the temple. Nope, he threw the poor people out. And it makes perfect sense. Cozying up to rich people makes a lot of sense and let's face it, when you're rubbing elbows with the hoi polloi, poor people don't help your image. From lacking fashion sense to not being up to par on personal hygiene, the poor can be a real bummer.

We could even pretend that he was a teacher and made his living from seminars designed to help the one-percenters cope with the special problems they have in any age.

"How to hide money so deep in Caribbean banks that even the IRS can't find it" might have been popular.

"Corporate Welfare - socializing the risk and privatizing the rewards" - another good one.

"Hating - just a deeper form of love" - for the Fox News crowd

"It's time we invented the pocket - so we'll have a place to keep the Congressmen that we buy" - can't be a one-percenter without this one.
This is one of the things I have mentioned before.

We have become a cold and heartless society. I understand the resentment towards those that live on the government dole forever. I have some issues with them also, but we turn a blind eye to those that have fallen on hard times thru no fault of their own and call them lazy.

Added thought: I have been there - I am not lazy.

:(
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I think you are selling the general public short. Most are quite ok with helping people out. What they have a problem with is the widespread abuse that goes on. And the media on all fronts takes advantage of it. SNAP cards used in strip joints, section 8 housing, Obamaphones, and the long list goes on. That is what the general public sees even though it doesn't represent all of them.
There is no doubt that resentment builds when people are working and giving on their behalf and then are snubbed.
That general public gives more than any other country when it comes to welfare and charity.
Some would make the argument that people only do it for a tax deduction. Some do, but the ones I see throwing money in the Salvation Army tin, helping the vets, or people bringing food for the food bank are not doing it for a tax deduction.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The problem is that paying for welfare is FORCED. We have NO say what so ever as to how the money is used. It is driving up taxes, making it much harder for those who work to make ends meet. The tax system is set up to keep people in their place. Work harder to get ahead that the money is taken and given to people who do not EARN it. IF welfare was working, as is was sold to us, to end poverty, there would no longer be a need for it with all the billions upon billions we have spent on it.

When hard work and success are taxed and no work is subsidized, there is a problem. The government's form of forced charity is designed to keep people poor and dependent, not to help.

Many of us have "been there". Most everyone I know who "was there" worked their way out, moved for work, gained skills, in other words, did what it took. I know people, bums, in PA who have been on welfare for over ten years, and yet, companies drilling for natural gas are having to go out of state, to find labor.

One should NOT be allowed to be on welfare for ever. I would say no more than a year, and that is likely too long.

Then there is this, the more the government TAKES from me the less I have to GIVE to people in REAL need, people who I would CHOOSE to help, as charity was meant to be. I ONLY give to charities that receive NO government help and ONLY where I can SEE where the money is being used. I don't like pouring money down into a bottomless pit. I also like CONTROL over my hard earned wages. Wages are property, PRIVATE property. They do not belong to the government and no one but the person who earned those wages are entitled to it. It is also the right of the wage EARNER to use those wages, their legal privage property, how they see fit, including how they CHOOSE to be charitable.

I prefer to hire than support, to purchase products, that are made by other wage earners. Paying people NOT to work, is wrong.
 
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Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I think you are selling the general public short. Most are quite ok with helping people out. What they have a problem with is the widespread abuse that goes on. And the media on all fronts takes advantage of it. SNAP cards used in strip joints, section 8 housing, Obamaphones, and the long list goes on. That is what the general public sees even though it doesn't represent all of them.
There is no doubt that resentment builds when people are working and giving on their behalf and then are snubbed.
That general public gives more than any other country when it comes to welfare and charity.
Some would make the argument that people only do it for a tax deduction. Some do, but the ones I see throwing money in the Salvation Army tin, helping the vets, or people bringing food for the food bank are not doing it for a tax deduction.

The problem is that paying for welfare is FORCED. We have NO say what so ever as to how the money is used. It is driving up taxes, making it much harder for those who work to make ends meet. The tax system is set up to keep people in their place. Work harder to get ahead that the money is taken and given to people who do not EARN it. IF welfare was working, as is was sold to us, to end poverty, there would no longer be a need for it with all the billions upon billions we have spent on it.

When hard work and success are taxed and no work is subsidized, there is a problem. The government's form of forced charity is designed to keep people poor and dependent, not to help.

Many of us have "been there". Most everyone I know who "was there" worked their way out, moved for work, gained skills, in other words, did what it took. I know people, bums, in PA who have been on welfare for over ten years, and yet, companies drilling for natural gas are having to go out of state, to find labor.

One should NOT be allowed to be on welfare for ever. I would say no more than a year, and that is likely too long.

Then there is this, the more the government TAKES from me the less I have to GIVE to people in REAL need, people who I would CHOOSE to help, as charity was meant to be. I ONLY give to charities that receive NO government help and ONLY where I can SEE where the money is being used. I don't like pouring money down into a bottomless pit. I also like CONTROL over my hard earned wages. Wages are property, PRIVATE property. They do not belong to the government and no one but the person who earned those wages are entitled to it. It is also the right of the wage EARNER to use those wages, their legal privage property, how they see fit, including how they CHOOSE to be charitable.

I prefer to hire than support, to purchase products, that are made by other wage earners. Paying people NOT to work, is wrong.
I do get it, and understand what you guys are saying. I do also have issues with the free loaders that live off the dole. However, with that said, I also take issue with the blanket statements lumping all persons that ask for some help to get back on their feet so they can do what it takes to get on being productive members of society, as Lazy.

Most do not want to be in that situation and just want a helping hand up.

If your neighbor falls down, offer him a helping hand to get up. (unknown author)
 
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