Hours of Service Concerns

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
If expediters have not already done so, they should read the EO piece, "Frustration - An Expediter's concerns with the new Hours of Service rules"

Link: http://www.expeditersonline.com/artman/publish/Frustration_Hours_of_Service.html

I'd be curious to hear what - if anything - expediters are hearing from their carriers, and what expediters are telling their carriers regarding the issues raised in this piece.

Hats off to Caroll and Dora Bean for speaking out as they have. I'm calling officials I know at my carrier (the hours of service guy, safety department people, my contract coordinator, my recruiter, and dispatchers I'm familiar with) Monday morning to make sure they have seen this article.
 

Dreamer

Administrator Emeritus
Charter Member
Thanks Dave,

I knew there was a thread somewhere, but I didn't see it. I know OOIDA is persuing a revamp, as stated in Landline this month... perhaps, as ATeam said, if enough people raise a fuss, the powers that be will see the error of these changes.

Especially team drivers need to make the lawmakers aware of how much these new rules affect them.



Dreamer
Forums Administrator
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
As Dreamer said, OOIDA is expressing concerns. They are not alone. CRASH, and PATT have also voiced concerns in the form of a Petition for Reconsideration. The Teamsters have also spoken out against the new rule. Even the American Trucking Associations - that includes some of the nation's largest carriers - is voicing concern. That ATA item surprised me, since a couple (or more) BIG line haul carriers have expressed satisfaction with the rule. I hear a number of other challenges are taking shape from other entities as well.

The last word on the split sleeper berth rule is far from in. It seems we are (once again!) early in a developing HOS situation, the outcome of which is unpredictable at this point.

I started this thread because I'm interested in knowing what - if anything - expediters are hearing from and saying to their carriers on the split sleeper berth issue. Posting that specific question in it's own thread seemed the best way to get that info.

Judging from the response so far, one might conclude that drivers and carriers have said little or nothing. I hope this is not the case. Silence among drivers and carriers at this point may well be taken by the FMCSA as consent to the new rule and we may be stuck with it.

If drivers and carriers are silent now, and the above-named organizations are ineffective in influencing the FMCSA (as they were ineffective in keeping the current bad rule off the books), it may fall to drivers at the grass roots level to stir things up to help make things right.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
OOIDA won't get anywhere if they keep attacking carriers and the ATA . Everyone in the industry has to work together . In the latest edition of "The Trucker " newspaper there is a front page article about OOIDA writing letters to ATA members critcizing the ATA and the ATA rebuttal . Turn the page and TIA is at odds with OOIDA . It seems trucking organizations will oppose anything OOIDA attempts because of their attitude . I'm removing my OOIDA decal and not renewing my membership .
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
It seems the ATA has a double standard going on here. The have "concerns", yet some of their high ranking officials (a VP at Schneider) helped to write the new rules. It's clear to me they're trying to play both sides of the card here... wanting small carriers who depend on the split sleeper to go defunct, while saving face with their concerns.

My wife went on a site (I can't remember which one), and took part in a poll about the new HOS. After voting that she didn't like it, the overall votes were shown... 99.3% said they liked the new HOS!!! And there were TENS OF THOUSANDS of votes!!! Who do you think is stacking the opinions? Goons of the ATA, maybe?

I read in the EO article from the beginning of the thread, that they will SHOW their logs to be FMCSA compliant. BRAVO!!! Don't let some Washington know-nothings scare you from your way of life. What appears to be happening is that good, law-abiding ppl are having to choose between breaking a law or not feeding the family. What would you choose?
 

ACE

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
OOIDA is an organization that gives the O/O who has one truck a voice that can be heard. Sure they take large carriers to court because the carrier may be taking advantage of the driver or O/O. They go after bad Brokers to. The single driver would not have the time or the funds to fight an injustice by the carrier or brokers who do not pay their bills.

OOIDA also offers many benefits at a one stop location that are geared for the trucking industry.{example Insurance, Fleet Fuel purchase card, Loans etc.}This gives the driver and easy source to shop and compare prices.

They helped me get my authority. They also provide me a way to keep myself and drivers compliant with the the DOT by offering a service for random drug and alcohol tests.

OOIDA gives the little guy a voice in Local, State, and Federal policies, by working to change unfair laws such as split speed limits, truck parking at your home, and many more ordinances,laws to numerous to mention in this post.

Their board is made up of current or former drivers that are voted on by drivers.

I am a happy member of OOIDA and I think they have the small truckers best interest at heart.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
>It seems trucking
>organizations will oppose anything OOIDA attempts because of
>their attitude . I'm removing my OOIDA decal and not
>renewing my membership .

I hope you reconsider. OOIDA is the only organization currently more interested in the owner/driver than in themselves and their own agendas.

Leo Bricker
OOIDA 677319
truck 4958
73's K5LDB
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

TeamDrivers2

Expert Expediter
>I'd be curious to hear what - if anything - expediters are
>hearing from their carriers, and what expediters are telling
>their carriers regarding the issues raised in this piece. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------NOTE:would be nice if this forum software created quotes in a proper fashion as 99.9% of all other forum software. [my am rant]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We haven't heard anything from FEDCC. One things quite obvious tho , Not one word has been mentioned since we started DOUBLE ordering log books. They know exactly why wer'e doing what wer'e doing. I'm presuming the lack of questioning is their un-spoken nod of approval.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
What appears to be happening is that
>good, law-abiding ppl are having to choose between breaking
a law or not feeding the family. What would you choose?

That's part of the concern that lies behind my research inquiry (which is, what are carriers and drivers saying to each other?). It ought not boil down to the choice betwen working or lying. In their letter, the Beans spoke with passion about the ETHICS vs. safety conflict the new split sleeper rule gives rise to. There ARE other choices, one of which is to change the rule for the better.

My inquiry is about one slice of the ongoing talk (or absence of it) in the current situation. It's a research question that will help me and others decide what to do next. In making that decision, it's important to know what's going on around you.

If it is the case that the majority of drivers are simply resolving themselves to lying to deal with the new rule, there is no point in getting invloved as an activist to change things for the better. The popular support from the grass-roots level will not be there if drivers believe lying is a workable solution and an OK response. (Most religious and ethical people will say lying is not OK).

Let me expand the question to fleet owners, many of which participate here. What are drivers telling fleet owners and what are fleet owners telling drivers (especially teams) regarding the new split sleeper berth rule?

As a FedEx CC driver, I too have heard nothing official from our carrier, except a Qualcomm announcement of what the new rule said when it went into effect. I did have a face to face conversation with one official there about HOS. He was as curious as I was to know what drivers were saying and doing. The conversation happened just a few days after the rule went into effect. He told me that the new rule is not a problem for certain other FedEx divisions since most of those drivers can operate easily in a 14 hour day. He noted the unique challenges expediters have because of our unpredictable time schedules. He said that at that point at least, FedEx CC's coments would be routed through the ATA, where FedEx CC is a member.

ATA's voiced concerns may have resulted from that and perhaps from other member input they've received. I can't say one way or another. I was glad to see FedEx CC (at least some folks there) is well informed on the issue and working behind the scenes to figure out how to react to the new rule, as we all are.

Let's return to the original inquiry after a detour about OOIDA and ATA.

Modifying the question slightly, what are carriers AND FLEET OWNERS saying to drivers, and what are drivers saying to carriers AND FLEET OWNERS about the new split sleeper berth HOS rule?

Oh, I should mention too what I've said to our carrier. I've said additional time should be added into long runs to allow team drivers to take a nap when they need to. While the nap time would not in all cases count as valid sleeper berth time under HOS, it would enable drivers to accept and safely complete their runs. Another alternative (unattractive to shippers and carriers) is to set up freight transfers between trucks mid-way through long runs. I was not serious in that suggestion, but I made it to make the point about what strict rule compliance may have to mean, and that the better alternative is to extend the run time to allow drivers to sleep.

These are not perfect solutions by any stretch. It's just doing what I've asked others to do...state what drivers are saying to their carriers.

Off the Internet and on the road, Diane and I have been able to operate in full compliance so far. Depending on the load, we've done so by driving longer shifts, experimenting with 8 and 3 and 3 and 8 instead of 10 and 10, and asking dispatch for (and receiving) additional time (so we can sleep) on a long run.

That said, we HATE the new rule. 5 and 5 (or 5.5 and 5.5) is a far better alternative for us. It gives us the flexibility to be safe on all runs in all circumstances and meet shipper schedules without modification.
 

terryandrene

Veteran Expediter
Safety & Compliance
US Coast Guard
"Wisdom is the ability to discover alternatives"

JERNATION addressed an alternative to "double logging" or 10 hour driving that received little comment in a previous thread. Perhaps many of you missed it so I'm copying it here.

No concerned driver should avoid contacting any carrier, truck friendly organization, legislator or government agency to encourage change to unsafe laws or regulations. In the meantime, the HOS regulations have the same effect as law and should be observed by all carriers, ownes and drivers until we can collectively effect a change. JERNATION has given us an alternative to consider, Let's give it a try.

My wife and I have developed a way to Log Legal shifts of 5 hrs to allows us to run long distance and still be legal.
It goes like this:

1st Shift = 5 Hrs. 1st driver logs both drive time and on duty not driving time to a total of 5 Hrs.

At end of 5 hrs, second driver takes over and logs a total of 4.5 hrs time, either driving or on duty not driving. This is the 2nd shift.

3rd shift, driver # 1 comes back and logs 4.5 hrs of either driving or on duty not driving time. This completes driver #1's 14 hr clock. They then go into the sleeper.

4th shift, driver #2 comes back and logs 5 hrs. of either driving or on duty not driving time. This completes driver #2's 14 hr clock. They go into the sleeper.

The truck is now shut down for a total of 3 hrs.

This allows driver #1 to complete their 8 hrs off. (5 hrs during shift 4 & 3 while the truck is shut down)

Driver #1 then starts a new day driving 5 hrs, while driver #2 sleeps 5 hrs, thus completing their 8 hrs sleeper time. (3 hrs while truck is shut down, and 5 while driver #1 is driving 1st shift of 2nd day)

Over all this gives a day of 22 hours, of which 19 hours is used to drive/on duty not driving time.

This works, is legal, and has been tested. The only sore point is getting your company to recognize that you need to shut down the truck for 3 hours to be legal.

Comments / suggestions appreciated.

Jernation
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Thank you, Terry. Very interesting idea Jernation has there, and one that provides some relief if the carrier goes along. Thanks to Jernation too!
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Ethical ppl? These rules were clearly not written by ethical ppl! What possible motives were involved in forcing drivers to drive 10 hours straight? They were written with agendas in mind.

If you define ethical as blindly following rules that are not in your best interest, then so be it. I find it appauling that MOST drivers are having a hard time with their conscience over logging differently than what's happening. I'm not talking about solos who do 1500 mile loads straight thru, as they have no conscience. I'm talking about those who need 5/5 split in order to survive. I can say that I sleep well at night (if the truck is parked LOL)

I don't believe accidents will go up, because those who are more comfortable with split sleeper will overwhelmingly continue to do so, regardless of what pencil-pushers write into law. When someone is put in charge WHO ACTUALLY HAS SAFETY AS THEIR MAIN PURPOSE, we will see this new HOS rule thrown away. Maybe we should change the FMCSA to the FMCSI... the Federal Motor Carrier Special Interests.

What they are saying with this rule change is, that we drivers are not as capable at safety as bus drivers, or those drivers who move our beloved show business/movie freight. As the great Harry Morgan used to say on MASH, HORSEPUCKIES!!!
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
You alluded to the agenda in your previous post in that a Schneider Vp is in a prominant position in all this. Making things harder for teams would benefit an outfit like them that can easily move a load coast to coast with drop and hook.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Exactly my point. There is nothing expedient about regular trucking companies. Their freight usually has a very liberal timeline, so if their drivers get tired, they pullover and sleep. I see very little affect to these companies, but a huge dilemma to expediting. As most have said, it stifles teams on the long runs, and usually prevents solos from taking multiple short runs in a day. It's the blind man who doesn't see who really benefits here.

durn typos :p
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
That's right folks, if the rules don't work for you, then, you have to work the rules. It's easy, just "git 'r' done".
 

TeamDrivers2

Expert Expediter
The only sore
>point is getting your company to recognize that you need to
>shut down the truck for 3 hours to be legal.





I'd be lucky to name 1 out of the last 10 runs that i could of shut down for 3 hours. And God help ya if sumthin would occur, [in the 3 hours before delivery] if indeed ya shut down for those three hours. Too risky shuttin down , WAY TOO RISKY !!!

To double log or not ????? ------ is not an option. I value my co-drivers and my life way too much to think its safe doing it legal.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
A Team,Just curious and don't take it the wrong way. You said you were going to talk to FDX safety,recruiters,dispatchers re the HOS rules. I was under the impression that they would only discuss issues with Owner operators or Fleet Owners. I was told that if they allowed drivers who work for fleet owners to discuss problems or situations that they were not happy with,they would be inundated with calls.
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
Rich: You must be/would be one of those fleet owners/drivers that allow policy to be strictly dictated to you and you take it for gospel. Ya gotta try the water, once in a while.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Colonel Foster no I am not a fleet owner,just a 1 truck owner operator,don't have the mindset or courage to hire people and put them into a 90K vehicle and then sleep at night. PM to you coming from me.
 
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