G-8 leaders agree to battle man made (yes man made) Global Warming

DougTravels

Not a Member
G-8 leaders agree on climate target
By CHARLES BABINGTON and NICOLE WINFIELD, AP

L'AQUILA, Italy — President Barack Obama joined other world leaders on Wednesday in backing new targets for battling global warming, a move the Bush White House had resisted.

White House officials confirmed that Obama agreed to language supporting a goal of keeping the world's average temperature from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit).

The agreement by the Group of Eight industrialized nations, meeting in Italy, marks a significant step in efforts to limit greenhouse gases blamed for the world's rising temperature. The G-8 previously had not been able to agree on that temperature limit as a political goal.

It remains only a target, however, and it is far from clear that it will be met, especially as China, India and other rapidly industrializing nations generate and consume more energy from coal and other sources.

Climate change experts say the 2-degree threshold wouldn't eliminate the risk of runaway climate change but would reduce it. Even a slight increase in average temperatures could wreak havoc on farmers around the globe, as seasons shift, crops fail and storms and droughts ravage fields, scientists say.

The G-8 leaders also agreed to a goal of having industrialized nations reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by 80 percent by 2050. It would be part of a worldwide goal of a 50 percent cut in such gases from all nations, rich and poor.

White House adviser Mike Froman said the administration supports the nonbinding goal. He said the starting point for the targeted reduction could be as early as 1990. The two goals will not be included in a declaration from a broader group that includes poor and developing nations that are wary about the potential impact of such reductions on emerging economies, Froman said.

Opponents say such sharp reductions in carbon emissions would hamper businesses and industries.

G-8 leaders also agreed that the global economy is too shaky to begin rolling back massive fiscal stimulus plans right now, according to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press.

The leaders said in the draft that they "note some signs of stabilization" but continued to stress the difficult outlook instead of concerns over debt and high spending.

"The economic situation remains uncertain and significant risks remain to economic and financial stability," the draft read. "We will take, individually and collectively, the necessary steps to return the global economy to a strong, stable and sustainable growth path."

The leaders did commit to prepare exit strategies from the "unprecedented and concerted action" that has been taken to boost growth through government spending, low interest rates, and expansive monetary policy. Germany, worried about running up crippling debt, has pressed for spending restraint, while other major economies like Britain, Japan and the United States can't rule out the need to pump in more money.

The measures include continuing the countries' stimulus packages while keeping inflation under control, a particular German concern, while also ensuring that banks have enough cash to keep lending.

In the meantime, the nations will prepare exit strategies, with the help of the International Monetary Fund, which will vary from country to country as the measures themselves have, the draft said.

The leaders gathered Wednesday in the quake-devastated central Italian city of L'Aquila. Over dinner, they planned to turn their attention to world security issues ranging from Iran to North Korea.

Italian host Premier Silvio Berlusconi, welcomed the leaders, many of whom arrived at the summit in electric cars bearing their nation's flag. Obama strolled into the summit site for the first G-8 meeting of his presidency.

The abrupt return home of Chinese President Hu Jintao after ethnic tensions soared in China's western Xingjiang territory could weaken trust-building discussions on making further progress on climate change.

China is among five developing market economies — along with Brazil, India, Mexico and South Africa — who are participating in the summit for the fifth straight year, joining the talks on Thursday to discuss bringing them on board, aid and development. Also joining are nine African nations and a forum on climate change.

The summit also will include a discussion on ways to expand the Group of Eight even further amid growing sentiment that world's most-industrialized nations can no longer claim leadership on the global political and economic agenda.

Obama signed an $787 billion economic stimulus bill in February, but experts say only about 15 percent of that has made its way into the economy so far — creating a debate between the wait-and-see camp and economists who urge another stimulus, arguing the recession proved to be deeper and more devastating than originally believed.

The document also calls for a rapid conclusion to the stalled Doha trade round, but failed to set a deadline. G-8 leaders will discuss this with other leaders tomorrow, the statement said.

The G8 draft statement on the economy calls for an "enhanced global framework for financial regulation" and to address flaws in the current system to help prevent future economic crises, but fails to make any concrete proposals. Leaders say they will address issues such as executive pay, definition of capital, risk management and the regulation of hedge funds and credit rating agencies.

___

Ben Feller, Colleen Barry, Jane Wardell and Emma Vandore contributed from L'Aquila
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
G-8 leaders agree on climate target
By CHARLES BABINGTON and NICOLE WINFIELD, AP

L'AQUILA, Italy — President Barack Obama joined other world leaders on Wednesday in backing new targets for battling global warming, a move the Bush White House had resisted.

White House officials confirmed that Obama agreed to language supporting a goal of keeping the world's average temperature from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit).

The agreement by the Group of Eight industrialized nations, meeting in Italy, marks a significant step in efforts to limit greenhouse gases blamed for the world's rising temperature. The G-8 previously had not been able to agree on that temperature limit as a political goal.

It remains only a target, however, and it is far from clear that it will be met, especially as China, India and other rapidly industrializing nations generate and consume more energy from coal and other sources.

Climate change experts say the 2-degree threshold wouldn't eliminate the risk of runaway climate change but would reduce it. Even a slight increase in average temperatures could wreak havoc on farmers around the globe, as seasons shift, crops fail and storms and droughts ravage fields, scientists say.

The G-8 leaders also agreed to a goal of having industrialized nations reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by 80 percent by 2050. It would be part of a worldwide goal of a 50 percent cut in such gases from all nations, rich and poor.

White House adviser Mike Froman said the administration supports the nonbinding goal. He said the starting point for the targeted reduction could be as early as 1990. The two goals will not be included in a declaration from a broader group that includes poor and developing nations that are wary about the potential impact of such reductions on emerging economies, Froman said.

Opponents say such sharp reductions in carbon emissions would hamper businesses and industries.

G-8 leaders also agreed that the global economy is too shaky to begin rolling back massive fiscal stimulus plans right now, according to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press.

The leaders said in the draft that they "note some signs of stabilization" but continued to stress the difficult outlook instead of concerns over debt and high spending.

"The economic situation remains uncertain and significant risks remain to economic and financial stability," the draft read. "We will take, individually and collectively, the necessary steps to return the global economy to a strong, stable and sustainable growth path."

The leaders did commit to prepare exit strategies from the "unprecedented and concerted action" that has been taken to boost growth through government spending, low interest rates, and expansive monetary policy. Germany, worried about running up crippling debt, has pressed for spending restraint, while other major economies like Britain, Japan and the United States can't rule out the need to pump in more money.

The measures include continuing the countries' stimulus packages while keeping inflation under control, a particular German concern, while also ensuring that banks have enough cash to keep lending.

In the meantime, the nations will prepare exit strategies, with the help of the International Monetary Fund, which will vary from country to country as the measures themselves have, the draft said.

The leaders gathered Wednesday in the quake-devastated central Italian city of L'Aquila. Over dinner, they planned to turn their attention to world security issues ranging from Iran to North Korea.

Italian host Premier Silvio Berlusconi, welcomed the leaders, many of whom arrived at the summit in electric cars bearing their nation's flag. Obama strolled into the summit site for the first G-8 meeting of his presidency.

The abrupt return home of Chinese President Hu Jintao after ethnic tensions soared in China's western Xingjiang territory could weaken trust-building discussions on making further progress on climate change.

China is among five developing market economies — along with Brazil, India, Mexico and South Africa — who are participating in the summit for the fifth straight year, joining the talks on Thursday to discuss bringing them on board, aid and development. Also joining are nine African nations and a forum on climate change.

The summit also will include a discussion on ways to expand the Group of Eight even further amid growing sentiment that world's most-industrialized nations can no longer claim leadership on the global political and economic agenda.

Obama signed an $787 billion economic stimulus bill in February, but experts say only about 15 percent of that has made its way into the economy so far — creating a debate between the wait-and-see camp and economists who urge another stimulus, arguing the recession proved to be deeper and more devastating than originally believed.

The document also calls for a rapid conclusion to the stalled Doha trade round, but failed to set a deadline. G-8 leaders will discuss this with other leaders tomorrow, the statement said.

The G8 draft statement on the economy calls for an "enhanced global framework for financial regulation" and to address flaws in the current system to help prevent future economic crises, but fails to make any concrete proposals. Leaders say they will address issues such as executive pay, definition of capital, risk management and the regulation of hedge funds and credit rating agencies.

___

Ben Feller, Colleen Barry, Jane Wardell and Emma Vandore contributed from L'Aquila


They cannot PROVE man made global warming. There is NO scietific consense on this. The problem is that anyone who does NOT agree with the "Party Line" on this subject is silenced. HAVE YOU done ANY research on this subject BESIDES what the media puts out? Do you know what the term "G" time means. Can you tell me how many years the continets have been with 2% of their present location. What is their rate of drift? How many periods of cooling and warming have there been since the continets have been within 2% of their present positions? What effect did Kackatoa have on global climate? How long did it affect the climate? When did this so-called warming period begin?

You see Doug, I NEVER see ANY of this information in anything I read or you post. Without the science to back it up, I do NOT trust it. This does NOT match up to "G" time one bit. Also the temp changes are well within the norm of general variations since the last ice age. NO real change.

Ocean temps are COOLING, both in the Atlantic AND the Pacific. There is an El Nino forming in the Pacific but it is weak compared to the last few due to the cooler water temps. The cooler temps are the reason that Dr. Jonas Gray has down graded the expected number of Atlantic basin storms for this year.

Alaska had one of it's COLDEST winters on record last year, as did Siberia. This continues a trend that has been going on for 5-6 years. While SOME pack ice continues to melt there is NO consenus as to why. Shifts in warm water currents appear to be most likely for this as temps in the Arctic are more than cold enough to support sea ice. The glaciers in Argentina are still growing as are some in Anarctica.

Also, according to "G" time we are OVER DUE for a 180 degree shift in the magnetic poles. YOU are aware that this is a normal ocurance that has been going on since the earth has exsisted? The Myan callendar (for what it is worth) is predicting this next shift to occur in 2012. We have NO idea what effects this will have WHEN, not if, it happens.

You see Doug, 4 BILLION years is a VERY long time. NOTHING we see today is new, just a re-run. THAT is unless you believe that polititons are honest. :rolleyes:
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
Doug,
Do you believe that's Earth's history has consisted of different times of Ice Ages? If you do that proves in and of itself that there are climate changes periodicly with periods of warming and cooling. If you do believe the Ice Ages occured who can you believe in this hoopla Al Gore is pushing? Besides towing the party line.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
This is from National Geographic- yes it is man made.

Global Warming Fast Facts National Geographic News

Updated June 14, 2007
Global warming, or climate change, is a subject that shows no sign of cooling down.

Here's the lowdown on why it's happening, what's causing it, and how it might change the planet?
Yes. Earth is already showing many signs of worldwide climate change.

• Average temperatures have climbed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit (0.8 degree Celsius) around the world since 1880, much of this in recent decades, according to NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies.

• The rate of warming is increasing. The 20th century's last two decades were the hottest in 400 years and possibly the warmest for several millennia, according to a number of climate studies. And the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reports that 11 of the past 12 years are among the dozen warmest since 1850.

• The Arctic is feeling the effects the most. Average temperatures in Alaska, western Canada, and eastern Russia have risen at twice the global average, according to the multinational Arctic Climate Impact Assessment report compiled between 2000 and 2004.

• Arctic ice is rapidly disappearing, and the region may have its first completely ice-free summer by 2040 or earlier. Polar bears and indigenous cultures are already suffering from the sea-ice loss.

• Glaciers and mountain snows are rapidly melting—for example, Montana's Glacier National Park now has only 27 glaciers, versus 150 in 1910. In the Northern Hemisphere, thaws also come a week earlier in spring and freezes begin a week later.

• Coral reefs, which are highly sensitive to small changes in water temperature, suffered the worst bleaching—or die-off in response to stress—ever recorded in 1998, with some areas seeing bleach rates of 70 percent. Experts expect these sorts of events to increase in frequency and intensity in the next 50 years as sea temperatures rise.

• An upsurge in the amount of extreme weather events, such as wildfires, heat waves, and strong tropical storms, is also attributed in part to climate change by some experts.

Are Humans Causing It?
"Very likely," the IPCC said in a February 2007 report.

The report, based on the work of some 2,500 scientists in more than 130 countries, concluded that humans have caused all or most of the current planetary warming. Human-caused global warming is often called anthropogenic climate change.


• Industrialization, deforestation, and pollution have greatly increased atmospheric concentrations of water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide, all greenhouse gases that help trap heat near Earth's surface. (See an interactive feature on how global warming works.)

• Humans are pouring carbon dioxide into the atmosphere much faster than plants and oceans can absorb it.

• These gases persist in the atmosphere for years, meaning that even if such emissions were eliminated today, it would not immediately stop global warming.

• Some experts point out that natural cycles in Earth's orbit can alter the planet's exposure to sunlight, which may explain the current trend. Earth has indeed experienced warming and cooling cycles roughly every hundred thousand years due to these orbital shifts, but such changes have occurred over the span of several centuries. Today's changes have taken place over the past hundred years or less.

• Other recent research has suggested that the effects of variations in the sun's output are "negligible" as a factor in warming, but other, more complicated solar mechanisms could possibly play a role.

What's Going to Happen?

A follow-up report by the IPCC released in April 2007 warned that global warming could lead to large-scale food and water shortages and have catastrophic effects on wildlife.

• Sea level could rise between 7 and 23 inches (18 to 59 centimeters) by century's end, the IPCC's February 2007 report projects. Rises of just 4 inches (10 centimeters) could flood many South Seas islands and swamp large parts of Southeast Asia.

• Some hundred million people live within 3 feet (1 meter) of mean sea level, and much of the world's population is concentrated in vulnerable coastal cities. In the U.S., Louisiana and Florida are especially at risk.

• Glaciers around the world could melt, causing sea levels to rise while creating water shortages in regions dependent on runoff for fresh water.

• Strong hurricanes, droughts, heat waves, wildfires, and other natural disasters may become commonplace in many parts of the world. The growth of deserts may also cause food shortages in many places.

• More than a million species face extinction from disappearing habitat, changing ecosystems, and acidifying oceans.

• The ocean's circulation system, known as the ocean conveyor belt, could be permanently altered, causing a mini-ice age in Western Europe and other rapid changes.

• At some point in the future, warming could become uncontrollable by creating a so-called positive feedback effect. Rising temperatures could release additional greenhouse gases by unlocking methane in permafrost and undersea deposits, freeing carbon trapped in sea ice, and causing increased evaporation of water.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
So ..... what do you think it means ?

What's your opinion about it ?

WHO ME?

The climate is doing what it has always done. Changing. Ocean currents shift, ice packs change. Glaciers grow and shrink. NOTHING NEW!! There was a mini-ice age in the 1500's. There was a 50-75 year 3-4 degreeF cooling period that was caused when Kracatoa blew up.

The normal swing in temps during inter-glacial periods IS 3-5 degrees F either side of the norm. Which is what we are seeing.

Can man affect these cycles, of course. To what degree? Unknown. Is this worth what we are throwing at it? Not likely.

What should we do? Continue to work on fuel cells for cars. They seem, at this time, to have the fewest chances for polution. WAY cleaner than anything with a battery. Use more efficient engines, they DO exsist. This will bridge the gap till the fuel cells are ready. More NUKE plants to produce electric. Replace as many gasoline engines with diesel. Continue to look at all alternitives BUT also look at all possible DOWN sides they may have. They ALL have down sides. AND, we MUST remember that the environment is MORE than just the temp. What good does getting the temp down do if you wipe out all wildlife habitat to do it?

What we need to do is sit down, take a DEEP breath, and relax. WE are NOT going to die next week. Unless the poles shift!!! Then I am sure that Gore will blame someone for that too.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
No, not you - you just merely happened to hit the "Submit Reply" button a bit before I did ..... I wanted to get Doug to comment about the article and see what he actually thinks .... before I commented .... :rolleyes:
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
No, no you - you just merely hit the "Submit Reply" button a bit before I did ..... I wanted to get Doug to actually comment about the article and see what he actually thinks before I commented .... :rolleyes:


Sorry about that, but it WAS FUN to work on that for a bit!!
:D
 

Scuba

Veteran Expediter
If all of the warming idiots would just kill themselves how much smaller would the human carbon footprint be? I mean if they really cared they should be on the front line putting a complete end to their carbon footprint
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Doug, with very few exceptions, the conclusions, and most of the observations, are based primarily on computer models. Software is written to simulate the global atmosphere and the worldwide weather. If you don't like the results of the modeling, or if you think one thing or another has more influence, you can modify the software to yield different results. Instead of looking at the data from source who make money from that data, look at the science itself. At the very least, take a reeeaaaalllly close look at any and all claims that are qualified with words like "likely".

A butterfly flaps its win China and it rains in Central Park. A moth lives for a single day and thinks it's forever. Humans live for a few decades and think 1000 years is a long time. The planet doesn't have enough computing power to take into account everything that must be taken into account to predict anything remotely close to an accurate outcome. They know this, so they make assumptions, almost always based on what the project is looking to prove. The models do not take into account the level of Chaos Theory that must take into account that butterfly in China, that's for sure.

For example, yes, the Earth is warming. It's always either warming or cooling, and it's been doing one or the other for millions of years. Right now the cycle is a warming one (except the Earth actually stopped warming in 1989 and has been gradually cooling every since, which is why it's not "Global Warming" and is now called "Climate Change"). There's a reason Greenland is called Greenland. It's because it used to be green.

Is the Earth warming because of us? Well, it's not actually warming, and hasn't been for the last 10 years, but we can't let the facts get in the way. But if you listen and read the mass media and the folks who make money from the sensational and frightful, those "merchants of chaos" you'd certainly think it's all about us humans. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) said the global average surface temperature increased about 0.6 degrees Celsius over the 20th century. That's not information from the National Geographic, it's directly from the IPCC. The IPCC also would only go as far as it "likely" having been caused by humans. They know better.

But, but, but, there will be more storms, flooded coasts and huge disruptions in climate! And they'll be even more severe! Oh, Nooooo! Yeah, well, there have always been storms, flooded coasts and huge disruptions in climate. And there always will be.

Rather than tax carbon, which will do nothing other than raise revenue for yet more wasteful spending on something stupid, rather than study the doom of gloom of deeply flawed computer models, it's a much more efficient use of resouces of every kind to study how to deal with and adapt climate change. The people of the Ice Age figured it out, and the people of the previous "hot age" managed to figure it out, too, and they did it without going bananas over something they can't control.

People should read this:
Climate Change - Sciencebase

And the explore here:
JunkScience.com -- Steven Milloy, Publisher
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
National Geographic is NOT an unbiased source.

Turtle, I listened to a lecture over at the U of the M a while ago by some brainy scientist who said "what really matters is the real true fact that no one..... I mean NO ONE can say that climate change is a bad thing" and then he went into a rant about how the wine in northern england tasted pretty good and how Siberia had a long growing season.... but he also mentioned that if we want to stop the warming of the earth, then we must go back to a better time when we burned coal and wood, when we put particles in the air.... that block out that nasty sun OR "figure out a way to move the earth". His conclusion was.... "man can do nothing except clean up his own mess and then it is limited to what our powers can actually do because we are not Gods..."
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It wasn't all that long ago when Michigan, and most of the Midwest, was buried under miles of glacial ice. Maybe we should go back to that time.
 

fketchum

Seasoned Expediter
I don't take a Pro or con on this issue but as I understand it Global Warming will cause the average temperature to rise a small amount. This small rise will some how cause the earths weather patterns to change and become more dramatic. I.E. the colds will be colder and the hots hotter. with less of the temperate weather we rely on. Some areas will get more rain some less, some will get the desired amount. Because the Atmosphere will hold more energy the storms will become stronger dumping more precipitation. The more precipitation will be beneficial to some areas but other areas will be flooded.
Obviously we don't understand weather enough to draw any conclusions, They have a hard time predicting the weather 3 days out. We do know that putting large amounts of foreign matter in the atmosphere does in fact cause weather patterns to change, look at volcanoes which cause dramatic changes to occur
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I read an article one time about 2 homes. The first home used more power alone than most small towns do and was the opposite of green. The second used energy efficent applainces and what not to lower it's power use, and had a system of gathering rain water and storing it to water the lawn and flower beds in dry spells. The first home had a lawn and plants required alot of water and care. The second home had a lawn and flowers that were more hardy and could survive longer on less water.

The first home was owned by Doug's friend and Global Warming advocate the Prophet Al Gore (If Obama is the Messiah shouldn't Al Gore be a Prophet?) and the second home was owned by none other than the so called "idiot" George W. Bush. Kinda funny. The Prophet can make my home green, but he doesn't the insight to green up his own. He is smart enough that he invented the internet, but can't lower his own power usage. At least W took care of his own home instead of just telling everyone else what they should do.

I wish I knew where that article was. I sure Doug won't believe it since it wasn't copied and pasted.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
It wasn't all that long ago when Michigan, and most of the Midwest, was buried under miles of glacial ice. Maybe we should go back to that time.

Yea I would like to see that, cleaning up what is left of Detroit and dumping off in Tennessee or Georgia or just southern Ohio.
 
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