Fun with deputies

[idtrans]

Well, I would like to see the herd thinned in the van division, and it will happen if vans become regulated. But then, the problem that we will be facing is that we don't have a DOT approved sleeper. And we won't be able to afford a hotel room after each 11 hours of driving.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App

I know that's why I got the heck out of vanning LMAO

 

[idtrans]

Pardon my ignorance. I have paid little attention to vans over the years and know little about them. I skip over most posts having to do with vans so if this has been discussed before, I missed it.

As I said above, your post about your being tired after a long run and taunting a deputy got me interested in van HOS and safety issues. There is no need to cover old ground on my account. If previous discussions on the topic exist, I'd be grateful to anyone who posts links to them.

I had a vanner almost go under my truck as he was flying past me and either he was tired or the wind got him. I did get his unit # and company but I watched him drive a couple miles before I called and he was fine. So either my 80k monster shook him awake or it was the wind in the mountain.

Point is when I drove the CV I can't count how many times I had to spend 1 hour arguing to get a 1 hour nap. or I would take a nap and then get told I shouldn't have napped. And for the record NO LATE DELIVERIES in my 20 years of driving thank god. So why is a nap a issue when half the time you get to the shipper and they make you wait a few to unload or could care less about the product delivered.

I am all for HOS for all sizes for many safety reason.

 

[cheri1122]

Phil: the logic behind trucks vs 4 wheelers [as pertains to logging] is that the potential for death and destruction increases by orders of magnitude as size & weight increase. A tired van driver can't cause the same scale of disaster as a tired t/t, plain and simple.
Turtle's explanation of the 'bad old days' was good, but left something out: it wasn't always the driver's idea to take that very long load [with insufficient rest], it was just as often the carrier's - and like today, some dispatchers didn't handle turndowns with a gracious attitude.
That's why the FMCSA is stressing the carrier's part in CSA: they've been known to pressure drivers to take loads, no matter how they felt about driving the next 12 hours.
And contrary to currently popular wisdom, most folks WANT to continue working, and will accommodate 'the bosses' to do so if they can.

 

[dabluzman1]

Iirc, doesn't Maggie's Law merely say that if you hurt or kill someone because you are driving fatigued, that extra penalties apply? So if you drive fatigued and DON'T get in a wreck, you're golden, right? That's pretty much the same principle as in my fireworks analogy above: exercise your freedom, but if your freedom hurts someone else, be prepared to pay the price. That's how all of society should work.

That's where your worldview comes in. You might believe, like RLENT, Chef, and me, that people have rights and can exercise them as long as they don't harm others, or maybe you believe like the D12 and believe that people should be regulated. That determines how you view this and other issues.

And I DID point out that I took a nap; I just didn't tell the deputy that.

FYI:
A1347 2R

You will find these sentences:

Criminal homicide constitutes vehicular homidide when it is caused by driving a vehicle or vessel recklessly.

Driving a vehicle while knowingly fatigued shall constitute recklessness.


Now I do admit they still give a lot of leeway as 24 hours is the stated guide.

 

[ATeam]

Phil: the logic behind trucks vs 4 wheelers [as pertains to logging] is that the potential for death and destruction increases by orders of magnitude as size & weight increase. A tired van driver can't cause the same scale of disaster as a tired t/t, plain and simple.

I think I understand the point you and Turtle make but it makes no sense to me that a van driver's life is a throw-away life while a truck driver's life is protected (HOS regulated).

 

[dabluzman1]

Phil: the logic behind trucks vs 4 wheelers [as pertains to logging] is that the potential for death and destruction increases by orders of magnitude as size & weight increase. A tired van driver can't cause the same scale of disaster as a tired t/t, plain and simple.
Turtle's explanation of the 'bad old days' was good, but left something out: it wasn't always the driver's idea to take that very long load [with insufficient rest], it was just as often the carrier's - and like today, some dispatchers didn't handle turndowns with a gracious attitude.
That's why the FMCSA is stressing the carrier's part in CSA: they've been known to pressure drivers to take loads, no matter how they felt about driving the next 12 hours.
And contrary to currently popular wisdom, most folks WANT to continue working, and will accommodate 'the bosses' to do so if they can.

I think we all agree a TT or STR will cause more carnage than a passenger car or light truck.

BUT:
Teen Car Accidents. Teenager Driver Statistics on Teenage Car Crash Accident, Safety Information Auto Wreck Prevention

CDC - Teen Drivers Fact Sheet - Motor Vehicle Safety

While some here are making this a VAN vs STR debate, my intent is only to show where the real problems are occuring.

Death on the highways occur at 10 fold rate when a passenger vehicle or light truck are envolved.

Which class (s) should be more regulated.
The combined two that account for 80% or the one that accounts for 10%?
Regulating passenger vehicles and small trucks will met resistance because if Legislatures regulate these vehicles they will be regulating themselves.
FAT CHANCE.
Its not that they cant or the how catastrophic the incident is but wanting to keep their own butts behind the wheel that will stall out regulating light trucks.

 

[cheri1122]

I think I understand the point you and Turtle make but it makes no sense to me that a van driver's life is a throw-away life while a truck driver's life is protected (HOS regulated).

It's not about the driver of the CMV - it's about how many other members of the public that one driver could potentially take out with him. And the infrastructure, too: put a bridge or road out of commission for any time, it's a huge headache.
Would 9/11 have been such a disaster if the terrorists were aiming a Piper Cub two seater at the Twin Towers?

 

[cheri1122]

I think we all agree a TT or STR will cause more carnage than a passenger car or light truck.

BUT:
Teen Car Accidents. Teenager Driver Statistics on Teenage Car Crash Accident, Safety Information Auto Wreck Prevention

CDC - Teen Drivers Fact Sheet - Motor Vehicle Safety

While some here are making this a VAN vs STR debate, my intent is only to show where the real problems are occuring.

Death on the highways occur at 10 fold rate when a passenger vehicle or light truck are envolved.

Which class (s) should be more regulated.
The combined two that account for 80% or the one that accounts for 10%?
Regulating passenger vehicles and small trucks will met resistance because if Legislatures regulate these vehicles they will be regulating themselves.
FAT CHANCE.
Its not that they cant or the how catastrophic the incident is but wanting to keep their own butts behind the wheel that will stall out regulating light trucks.

It's what I think is responsible for the problem of drunk drivers, especially the many multiple offenders: legislators don't want to pass laws that might bite them some day....

 

[whitewolf]

There's really not a difference, both haul cargo for a living. I don't see much difference between a T/T to S/T than S/T to van.

Sent from my DROID X2

because you don't think... that's why... I can drive a cargo van on vacation to Florida or I have a business which require to drive do you want me to log ?

 

[Turtle]

Thanks Turtle for explaining why vans shouldn't be under same rules as the T/T and S/T's, I'll try and see it from your view.

Sent from my DROID X2

It's not my view, it's the view of the FMCSA and the NHTSA.

 

[purgoose10]

I bump into this deputy inside. He seems like a decent guy. He asks me how I am and I told him how tired I was, that I'd just driven 1200 miles straight through, from Maryland to Lincoln. I look over at him and I can see the gears turning as he's doing the math.


That's another enjoyable thing about a CV.[/QUOTE]

I can't get over people that just want to talk to a cop. A stranger who in most cases (cops) have attitudes that everybody is a criminal. Think about that. If a cop gets the slightest incling that you have broken the law they are going to jump all over you. A cop can ruin your life even though you haven't done anything wrong. That's why we as Americans have rights. Now I'm not saying don't be nice, I'm just saying why do people spill their guts to cops?? Think about what your saying.. Think about how much money your business would loose just by him wanting to take you down town for questioning. Lost load? Company asking questions?? Anything, it's going to cost you money. Think that cop cares?
Now if regulating C/Vans was to happen, yes it would get rid of a few operators. Me I would just go up to the next class of truck and carry more cargo. That's just me.

 

[blizzard2014]

Of course. That's what I've been saying the whole time.

Look, the fact that vans aren't regulated like trucks is the ràison dê etre of CVs. It's our USP--our Unique Selling Proposition, the thing that makes CVs different than and preferable to trucks in many situations. You need those skids in Poughkeepsie in 20 hours? We'll have it there. The LTL people can't do it, regulated trucks can't do it, but a van can. THAT'S THE POINT OF A CARGO VAN IN THIS INDUSTRY. It's 1000 miles, but we'll get it there, straight through. THAT'S THE POINT. If that's curtailed, the van segment of the industry may as well not exist. Long distances without the regulation IS THE POINT.

That's also why the rates are shotty on the van jobs. Too many people willing to drive 20 hours straight for 70 cents per mile. From what I see it is a brokers wet dream out here because there are so many vanners entering the market. I do not advocate for regulation though because i'm a broker now and I can get my cargo van loads covered for under a dollar a mile and rake in the extra cheese!

 

[Turtle]

Thank you, Turtle for your thoughtful reply and well-articulated points. You answer well the question, why should drivers of big trucks log? But are you also suggesting that van drivers do not push safety limits and drive tired? You stated well the sins of big-rig drivers, but what of those vanners?

No, I'm not suggesting at all that van drivers do not push safety limits. They absolutely do, at least some of them. Many have boasted about it here in these forums. Some are quite reckless, in fact, same as the other 4-wheelers, because that's what they are, both literally and of that mindset. But they are still not any more dangerous to the general public than is any other car or light truck. An individual might be, same as any car or light truck, but as a class of vehicle, they are not. That's why trucks have to log whether they're hauling freight or not, because the vehicle itself is inherently more dangerous, empty or loaded, and the last thing you want behind the wheel of an inherently dangerous vehicle is a fatigued driver.

Cheri touched on it, it's the difference in damage, injury and death that a heavy vehicle can cause versus that of a van. And there are other factors. When a cargo van gets into an accident, injuries are the same as any other car or light truck in an identical accident. Most don't have fatalities, but the bad ones do, and in the bad ones the driver of the cargo van is also killed. In a big truck, fatalities occur much more often, not because of the driver, but because of the weight of the vehicle. And many times everything the truck hits results in the occupants getting killed, except the truck driver, who walks away, and that ****es people off. If most cargo van accidents resulted in lots of fatalities, but the driver is relatively uninjured and walked away, that would **** people off too, and we'd see a much greater likelihood of cargo vans being regulated.

But until that happens, cargo vans really and truly are no more dangerous to the general public than the general public itself, which as dabluzman1 correctly points out, is far more dangerous than are heavy trucks and buses.

I know that many tractor and straight truck drivers think that if they have to log, vans should, too, because the vans are hauling freight. But that's not the reason, and it's not only an obvious reason, it's plainly and explicitly stated in the FMCSA regulations, and in CSA 2010's stated purpose. Heavy trucks and buses, and all vehicles placarded for HAZMAT.

 

[paullud]

That's also why the rates are shotty on the van jobs. Too many people willing to drive 20 hours straight for 70 cents per mile. From what I see it is a brokers wet dream out here because there are so many vanners entering the market. I do not advocate for regulation though because i'm a broker now and I can get my cargo van loads covered for under a dollar a mile and rake in the extra cheese!

You got anything out of the Ontario, CA area?

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App

 

[AMonger]

FYI:
A1347 2R

You will find these sentences:

Criminal homicide constitutes vehicular homidide when it is caused by driving a vehicle or vessel recklessly.

Driving a vehicle while knowingly fatigued shall constitute recklessness.


Now I do admit they still give a lot of leeway as 24 hours is the stated guide.

Right. So if you drive through New Jersey, even statutorily tired, and don't hurt anyone, you've broken no laws.

So nap when you need it and above all, don't hurt anyone.

 

[AMonger]

That's also why the rates are shotty on the van jobs. Too many people willing to drive 20 hours straight for 70 cents per mile. From what I see it is a brokers wet dream out here because there are so many vanners entering the market. I do not advocate for regulation though because i'm a broker now and I can get my cargo van loads covered for under a dollar a mile and rake in the extra cheese!

Who said anything about .70 a mile. I wouldn't have touched it at that rate. And again, running hard is the USP of a van. Long distances straight through or nearly straight through is the purpose of a van. The customer has that freight, and I can do it safely, I should say no?

 

[blizzard2014]

Who said anything about .70 a mile. I wouldn't have touched it at that rate. And again, running hard is the USP of a van. Long distances straight through or nearly straight through is the purpose of a van. The customer has that freight, and I can do it safely, I should say no?

Of course not. I still run a van and can easily pull a 1000 mile run in 24 hours and still squeeze in a 4 hour nap (if necessary). I just hate it when some shippers and dispatchers act like just because you drive a cargo van and (because others have done so) that you do not need any sleep. I always stop when I need sleep regardless of how tight the load is. I can pull Los Angeles to Detroit in 50 hours and still get two 4-5 hour sleep breaks in along the way. The only problem with self-policing is that there are a lot of drivers (mostly new drivers) who do not know their limitations. They bite off more than they can chew and then end up injuring or killing themselves. This is why a lot of the larger companies have started limiting the amount of miles that a solo cargo van driver can run. A man's got to know his limitations...Clint Eastwood

 

[60MPH]

And again, running hard is the USP of a van. Long distances straight through or nearly straight through is the purpose of a van.

Oh my, you have much to learn.... who sold you that B.S.

 

[AMonger]

As I said above, your post about your being tired after a long run and taunting a deputy got me interested in van HOS and safety issues. There is no need to cover old ground on my account. If previous discussions on the topic exist, I'd be grateful to anyone who posts links to them.

Taunting isn't really an accurate description.

I don't know where to find it, but there was a previous occasion in which Turtle addressed this issue fairly exhaustively, much moreso than this time. That's why I was saying NOT THIS AGAIN.

 

[ATeam]

Regarding limiting van drivers for safety reasons, carriers vary on their practices, do they not?

Again, I have paid little attention to vans in the past, which is why I have to ask the question. Am I correct in believing that FedEx Custom Critical and Panther limit the drive time and distances that van drivers can cover in a certain time period?

How widespread is the practice among other carriers that run vans?

Among the carriers that limit van operations and those that do not, what is the reasoning?