Food For Thought Or How Do You Want Your Goat Grilled

dhalltoyo

Veteran Expediter
Keith Naughton
NEWSWEEK
Mar 1, 2008

As Arwa Hamad strolls a new Wal-Mart, an eight-foot display of olive oil stops her in her tracks. "Oh, wow," she says, marveling at the sight of so many gallons of Lebanese extra virgin. "We could go through one of these in a week in my house." Around the corner, row upon row of gallon jars of olives—from Turkey, Greece, Egypt and Lebanon—soak in deep hues of purple, red and green. "Look at the size of these olives," says the stay-at-home mother of three and native of Yemen.

Hamad, 34, has shopped at Wal-Mart before, but never one like this. She is overcome with nostalgia as she spots Nido powdered milk and Al Haloub Cow, canned meat she calls the "Arabic Spam." "My father loves this," she says. "People from war-torn countries, this is what you lived on when you couldn't go out of the house to shop." This Wal-Mart, though, isn't in a war zone. It's in Dearborn, Mich., home to nearly a half-million Arab-Americans, the largest concentration of Arabs outside the Middle East.

As America changes, so does the store where America shops. In Dearborn this week, the world's largest retailer opens a store like no other among its 3,500 U.S. outlets. Walk through the front door of the 200,000-square-foot supercenter and instead of rows of checkout counters, you find a scene akin to a farmers market in Beirut. Twenty-two tables are stacked high with fresh produce like kusa and batenjan, squash and eggplant used in Middle Eastern dishes. Rimming the produce department are shelves filled with Arab favorites like mango juice from Egypt and vine leaves from Turkey used to make mehshi, or stuffed grape leaves. A walled-off section of the butcher case is devoted to Halal meats, slaughtered in accordance with Islamic law (when a Wal-Mart manager noticed the pork section was too prominent he ordered it moved, since Muslims don't eat pork). In the freezer case, you'll find frozen falafel. You can also pick up a CD from Lebanese pop singer Ragheb Alama or buy Muslim greeting cards.

The Dearborn store, though, is the most extreme example of the concept. Wal-Mart offers its standard fare, plus 550 items targeted at Middle Eastern shoppers. "In the past, Wal-Mart has been pretty cookie-cutter when it comes to merchandise," says Dearborn store manager Bill Bartell.

To fit into this bastion of ethnic tradition, Wal-Mart started two years ago to meet with imams and moms, conducting focus groups at Middle Eastern restaurants. Wal-Mart learned the community wasn't as concerned about seeing Arabic-language signs as they were with dealing with Arabic-speaking staff. So Bartell hired about 35 Arabic speakers, including Suehaila Amen, a local middle-school teacher who is providing ethnic-sensitivity training to the 650 employees. He also learned not to bother stocking traditional Muslim clothing, like the headscarf, or hijab, Amen wears. "The community told us, 'I would not feel comfortable coming to Wal-Mart to buy my hijab'," says assistant store manager Jordan Berke. "We're not here to overstep our bounds."

Despite the sensitive sell, local shopkeepers still worry about Wal-Mart. "There is a fear factor in the business community," says Osama Siblani, publisher of Dearborn's Arab American News. To allay those fears, Wal-Mart is making an extraordinary promise: it will not undercut the prices of the small local merchants (though it will still go after Kroger). The insular company even agreed to be scrutinized by a "community advisory board" made up of local Arab-American leaders to ensure it isn't harming the mom-and-pop shops. One example: Wal-Mart agreed to charge one dime more than local grocers for a six-pack of pita bread.

Arwa Hamad says her devotion to Dearborn's Muslim merchants doesn't simply rest on one thin dime. After all, when her husband goes to their Arab butcher, he buys in bulk. "It's hard to get half a lamb at Wal-Mart," she says. And yet, the more she wanders the aisles, the more she likes. There are the Turkish sweets and dried dates her kids love, and the Nescafé coffee she adores. "This brings back memories from home," she says. "I'll never forget Mustafa's corner store, but as soon as this place opens, I'm coming here with my checkbook." Going native just might be the next way Wal-Mart wins.

 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
David,
Not to insult you but I am trying to figure out the point here. I already know about the store and actually plan on shopping there because they will have foods there that I enjoy eating.

But I wonder why we don't hear about all the Hispanic pandering with Wal-mart in Tennessee or Kentucky or the Kosher areas in the Wal-Mart in NY?

Is this a real surprise that they have taken this seriously like they have in other places with other cultures because we have the largest Arab population in the world outside of the middle east less then 5 miles from my home and Wal-mart should take advantage of them, I know I would if I could.

Am I worried about the take over of the country by Arabs because of Wal-Mart?

Nope not at all, but what I fear is the stupidity of the people not to recognizing bigger threats to our sovereignty, like the border issue and Emminate Domain. We in the South East part of Michigan have put up with Dearborn for a while and even though it is like going to Lebanon in some parts, I don't worry about the people there as much as I do worry about people in Hamtramak and up in Minnesota where I think everyone wants to pander to the Somalis to make them have warm and fuzzy feelings in the frozen land - heat by emotion. The Somalis are actually more demanding and more of a problems than most of Dearborn.

You also have to understand that just because they are arabs, means that they are not all Muslims. We also have a very large population of Chaldean Catholics, Iraqi Christians and even some Jewish Arabs (yes that is what they tell me they are) that make up a large percentage of the population. The store actually fit into their cultures too and people I know who are devote Christians make use of the Halal meats because of the issue of safety and quality. I think that you would agree that raising food without allowing a lot of crap to be put into it is a good thing.

Am I defending the Muslims?

In a way I am but not. I see it their way because of the proximity of where I am in the area. I know that many want to live together and the BS that others are saying is not true. They don't seem to be robots, some even eat pork but hey we are made up of all different cultures and more so we need to learn from others with open minds.

Beside, have you ever had goat?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Not to insult you but I am trying to figure out the point here.
Man .... you ain't kiddin' ..... :confused:

I'm not going to be quite as polite or deferential - although I will try to remain civil and keep this a reasoned discourse - but I'm gonna call it as I see it.

If this were merely a single post in isolation, it would be one thing ..... but "the anti-Islamic hits just keep on comin'" apparently .......

I'm really curious about why if one wanted others to read the article one wouldn't just post a link ?

Ahh ..... I see now ..... there have been some (un-indicated) "editorial" modifications made by the Rev to the text of the article (which you wouldn't really know - unless you bothered to actually go to the original source which might not be too likely - since there was no link posted to it by the good Rev ....)

What are the these modifications ?

The words "half a million" are underlined to bring emphasis. (Not in the original article)

The words "the largest concentration of Arabs outside the Middle East." have been bolded and the word "largest" underlined to emphasize it. (Not in the original article)

The words "when a Wal-Mart manager noticed the pork section was too prominent he ordered it moved, since Muslims don't eat pork have been bolded to bring emphasis. (Not in the original article)

The words "to meet with imams" have been set with bold type. (Not in the original article)

None of the above appear typographically in the original article as they have been show here.

It's almost as though someone were trying to make the article ALARMING ..... when in fact, the original article was merely a story about how an American business was competing to acquire and service a particular segement of it's potential customers and doing something to make those newly arrived (relatively) in this country feel somewhat WELCOME

Heaven forbid that should occur apparently ....

I guess some folks could find the above alarming - personally I don't - glad to hear we haven't totally lost our competitive spirit here in the good ole' US of A and that some in our midst see others of different races and creeds not as something to be feared - but as something that might just add to the American experience - which has traditionally been one of a melting pot of different peoples, cultures, and religious beliefs.

I know that many want to live together and the BS that others are saying is not true. They don't seem to be robots, some even eat pork but hey we are made up of all different cultures and more so we need to learn from others with open minds.
Ahhhh .... the sweet sound of sanity ..... may it forever bless my ears.

Beside, have you ever had goat?
I personally haven't but my eldest son has - when he went to Indonesia to meet the devoutly religious Muslim parents of the girl he married. He was a big fan of the goat satay and raved about it when they returned.

Her parents, by the way, are now here (and have green cards), my son and daughter-in-law having brought them over, after they lost it all in the tsunami, and are living with the kids. And they are a couple of the nicest folks you would ever want to meet - quite tolerant of others and their beliefs .... (imagine that.)

When one takes on the mantle of representing anything (religions included) one would be well advised to consider the image one's comments project - and how they reflect on that which one claims to represent.

I see the aforementioned as showing - I'm being polite here - bias (normally I'd use another word to describe it - one that also begins a "b" and ends with a "y" ..... but like I said .... I'm being polite.)
 
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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I have one major problem with this. Walmart has agreed to set prices above those of the mom and pop stores rather than their usual cutthroat pricing. Why do they give special dispensation to the Muslim shopkeepers and not to the American shopkeepers? That is totally wrong.

As to the rest, those people are not Arab-Americans. They are either Arabs or Americans. Walmart is catering to those customers far more than they do to any other group of customers. That is obvious from the details.

Frankly I could care less about emphasis added. What's primary to emphasize to one person is secondary to another and vice versa. That doesn't change the facts and therefore is of minimal consequence. What's far more important are the facts of the extent Walmart is compromising for one group beyond what they do for any other group.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I've been to Dearborn once to pick up a load at a small steel mill and I thought it was a nice area. The mill was in a residential area and it was very nice. It looked like any other suburb I have been to in the US. The only difference was the ads on some signs where in arabic.

There was a resteruant about half a block away. I walked down there to eat after loading. I had a dirty face and hands from tarping steel and the nice lady there gave me a washcloth and towel to use to wash my face, and I didn't even ask. Very nice people. They said I was the first truck driver to come in. It was a slow time of day for them and a couple of the girls sat down and spoke with me. It was a good time. They were Iraqis. When they found out I had been in the service my meal was on the house. There are alot of Iraqis that really like Americans, but that is a different post.
 

Robsdad

Seasoned Expediter
AMEN! LDB
PREACH IT BROTHER.
It's just a little to obvious here that they don't care about how many small business's it puts out of business in small town America just don't offend the Arabs. I thought this was a cook the goat thing. I was gonna invite all of you to visit Moonlite Bar B Q in Owensboro ky and eat some BBQ goat and sheep. They have beef and pork too. If your in the Owensboro are you need to visit. Straight truck parking around back.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
I have one major problem with this. Walmart has agreed to set prices above those of the mom and pop stores rather than their usual cutthroat pricing. Why do they give special dispensation to the Muslim shopkeepers and not to the American shopkeepers? That is totally wrong.

Very simple. Because it's better that Walmart doesn't want to pizz Arabs off. They could care less about other ethnicities who will be back, more or less, to buy their crap.

The prevailing attitude of the West is that it's better to stroke the Arab community, to keep them purring; rather than accidently step on it's tail, and provoke retribution... such as a bomb or two at Walmart HQ. Not that this would happen. But there are those pesky steriotypes, ya know. And ya just never can be sure WHO is the militant.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
My grandpaws brother raised goats. He sold some and bar-b-qued some himself for people he would invite over. It's not just a Muslim thing.

Wal-Mart is a ruthless outfit. They drive down prices until all of their competition is out of business and then they increase the prices. That is why I try to shop from the mom and pop stores. I try and do something to keep my money close to home. I would rather drive down the road half a mile and pay a little more at the country store than I would go to Wal Mart. A lot of people won't because Wal Mart is cheaper, but after you figure what you spend on gas you are better off at the country store if you are only getting a few items.

I really don't see how very many here can bad mouth Wal Mart. Wal Mart gets more free advertisment here than anyother place I've seen. I hate that place.

You are right T-Hawk. One thing I respect about Arab people is the fact when they say they are going to do something they usually do it. If they said they were going to boycott Wal Mart they would. Most of everyone else would just talk and never take action. I usually don't agree with them on why they are mad, or what a select few do after they get mad, but I respect the fact that they let their thoughts be known.
 
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terryandrene

Veteran Expediter
Safety & Compliance
US Coast Guard
The Burgoo at the Moonlight Bar is as good as it gets. A pork or mutton stew in which your spoon stands up, it's so thick.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Unfortunately there are many individuals that are religious extremists be they Muslim.Orthodox Jews,right wing Bible spouting Baptists etc. A friend told me once that if Jesus,Mohammed,Abraham,Budda and the rest ever returnd to this world they would not be very happy over the people killed in their name. Plus the hatred that they have for other religions that are not their own.

Organized religions have probably been responsible for more wars and deaths then disease.

There is nothing wrong with Walmart catering to a specific market,go to Brownsville Texas and look at the products carried there.

I think Reverend Dave it might be time to reflect and take a look at yourself.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The problem is not that they cater to a specific group in a specific store. That is marketing 101 for any store anywhere. The problem is pledging to protect the local merchants. The problem is discrimination. Walmart goes after all the mom and pop stores everywhere except for the middle eastern stores. For those they pledge to price higher to protect them. Rather than time for Dave to do any reflecting, it's time for everyone else to open their eyes to the inequality of the situation and the discrimination toward one particular group.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
There is nothing wrong with Walmart catering to a specific market,go to Brownsville Texas and look at the products carried there.

And they're wrong for that, ALSO!

Hey Walmart! Don't go catering to the flavor of the day, then wave the American flag in MY face, thank you!
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
I like goat. Been to many a "goat grabs" in the Mideast. When in Mexico, I go outa my way to find a kid goat on a spit. Believe it's called cabrito.

But, so some of us don't get lulled to far to sleep by our new found aquaintances, I understand that there is a few thousand miles difference between an Indonesian and an Arab.
 

dhalltoyo

Veteran Expediter
Pandering to one group as opposed to another was the point.

I was reared by a Filpino stepfather, but I don't find Lechón [emp mine] Baboy in the meat counter at Wal-Mart. (Emphasis added was mine now that we are critiquing every aspect of my posts.) Oh, and so I won’t be falsely accused of “alarming” folks about “Roasted Pork”…well, you know…because I have a different opinion. Let’s move the pork so we don’t offend any person who is a Muslim, or those who have assimilated their culture through marriage, but we can offend all Filipinos.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I had a Filipino room mate while I was in the Marines. The only thing that ever really offened him was people always asking him if he was a Mexican. Plus the Mexicans would get mad when they came up to him and started talking Spanish and he responded in Tagalog.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
You know some of these things are funny...

Ok......

1 - Wal-mart used creative marketing in this case but as Leo pointed out that they are not cutting prices like they do in other markets to put out of business the mom and pop stores.
Not really the case.

They opened a store in Livonia, one thing that they promised was not to price things so cheaply to run the locals out of business.

In addition, there is a style of business that many Arabs follow and for their patronage Wal-mart must have acknowledge that they must survey and be realistically to maintain their creditability so people will purchase at their store. If they are strict Muslims, then there was a lot of talk about profit because they will not deal with merchants who make too much profit or undercut prices and want to know what the profit is - something like Cost Plus form of selling.

2 - Pandering? That is not a good point. I have been to a lot of Wal-Marts, I mean a lot of them, got the recipes to prove it. I seen the pork moved past the chicken at several stores - one is in New York has a complete small section for pork and I didn't see an Arab in sight in the store but a lot of Jews (is there some reason why they moved it?), I seen specially priced food items that were strictly regional and very strictly ethnic centric (one store in CA had a great BIG Indian/Pakistan section), and I have seen Wal-Mart carried one item that I never saw in any other store because I was told that there was such a demand for it - Canned Scrapple made in Pennsylvania only in a Maryland store. So who can blame them to open a store and stock it for a specific regional ethic group. Wal-Mart is a business, knows that there are gaps in areas that need to be filled and they fill it.
 

dhalltoyo

Veteran Expediter
RichM wrote: Unfortunately there are many individuals that are religious extremists be they Muslim.Orthodox Jews,right wing Bible spouting Baptists etc. A friend told me once that if Jesus,Mohammed,Abraham,Budda and the rest ever returnd <sp> to this world they would not be very happy over the people killed in their name. Plus the hatred that they have for other religions that are not their own.

Organized religions have probably been responsible for more wars and deaths then disease.

Yes and no.

No. The difference lies in the fact that Allah would have you die for him, (You know, 72 virgins in Allah Paradise) but conversely, God came to this earth in the form of Jesus Christ and died for us. No other "god" (lower case added for emphasis) can ever make that claim! Ever!

Yes, organized religion has been responsible for numerous atrocities. The Pharisees were as religious as they come…and they crucified my Savior. That is why I am not [Emp mine] religious! Religion is a system based upon traditions of men. Pick up the Bible and read Mark Chapter 7 to learn what Jesus Christ said to folks about those traditions. The teachings of Mark are culminated in one verse: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

The Crusades were an example of those autrocities; traditions of men, well, certain men. They were military battles of a religious nature waged by much of Christian (In name only. Not believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by Grace through Faith) Europe against external and internal threats. Crusades were fought against Muslims, pagan Slavs, Russian and Greek Orthodoxes, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, and political enemies of the popes. Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins (Man can not forgive sins).

So, for the record, I am not religious. I have never killed anyone in the name of religion. I do not hate any one because of there religious beliefs.

And for your information, I get up every morning, pray and read the Bible. I also call others to pray with them. I’ll turn down freight and drive hundreds of miles to be there for someone who requests my presence. Hopefully that will meet your requirement for reflection.

I make no apology for being a Bible Believing, Bible Preaching, Bible Teaching and Bible Practicing husband, father, grandfather, brother, son, nephew, cousin, friend, and pastor. As a citizen, and a veteran, I have every right to my opinion and my personal beliefs.

The Bible says, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16 It shouldn’t, but Jesus Christ warned us in Luke 21:1617 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Thanks for being such a blessing to me this day.

 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I was reared by a Filpino stepfather, but I don't find Lechón Baboy in the meat counter at Wal-Mart.
Well .... my question would be ..... are you shopping in a Walmart in a community that is primary composed of Fillipinos ?

I suspect that if Walmart had stores in the Phillipines and Lechón Baboy is a popular item there you would find it at the meat counter.

Do you seriously think McDonalds, which has restaurants in India, sell hamburgers there ? Not real likely ....

Or that they sell pork-based Sausage McMuffins in Israel, where they have restaurants as well, and where all the meat and chicken on the menu are kosher ? Oy Vey !!! (oddly no posts about this pandering - maybe because they are serving the "chosen ones")

Oh yes - it's so horrible that these companies, (who are dependent on customers for their economic survival) are finding out what their customers want and actually delivering it. Perish the thought !!!!

..... I'm sure the sky will begin to fall at any moment.

Oh, and so I won’t be falsely accused of “alarming” folks about “Roasted Pork”…well, you know…because I have a different opinion.
I don't think your post (and any of your previous ones of similar ilk) had anything to with alarming people about pork.

Make no mistake - any accusation you find in my posting would about attempting to alarm people about of a religion different from your own - and perhaps different than the majority of those who frequent EO.

There is nothing false from my perspective about my accusations (your mileage may differ) - all three of your "editorial" alterations deal specifically with parts of the article that referred to things specifically Islamic or Muslims - or to a population that is, generally speaking, predominately Muslim. It seems to me from where I'm looking that the religion was really the focus.

Ya know .... if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks .... well you get the point, right ?

Let’s move the pork so we don’t offend any person who is a Muslim, or those who have assimilated their culture through marriage, but we can offend all Filipinos.
So you, as a single individual, (of apparently Filipino descent or relation ?) are offended because all Walmarts don't carry Lechón Baboy ?

Even if the market a specific store is in doesn't serve a primarily Fillipino community ? My, my .... that certainly is sensitive .....

It seems to me that Walmart is merely trying to cater to a particular customer base for economic reasons - and little more. In doing so they are trying to be respectful of those that they serve. It's simply good business - and no different than many other businesses do.

I don't recall anything in that article saying that there were protests by the Arab or Muslim community against Walmart because they weren't doing any of this .... but that it was merely something they, Walmart, undertook on their own initiative, in order to better serve there customers. Seems smart to me.

As far as "assimilating their culture through marriage" goes I don't know you are referring to here - me or perhaps my son - or perhaps neither of us - but just speaking in general terms. In any event, it doesn't matter.

The point would be that I tried to raise my son to be respectful of all people, cultures, and religions. One thing he was taught was the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you .... "

And I wouldn't say that either of us has assimilated "their culture" ...... in fact the opposite is probably more true - his wife (if not her parents) is more assimilated to our culture than we are to theirs.

Of course, my wife, myself, and my son all enjoy it when the daughter-in-law and her mother cook us up some real Indonesian vittles. :D
 
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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It seems to me that Walmart is merely trying to cater to a particular customer base for economic reasons - and little more.

The "little more" in this case is deviating from their normal practice of undercutting everyone else and for this one group of people promising to always price higher than them. There is a definite issue presented in the article. If folks would quit trying to fault David for presentation style and read the content with eyes and mind open they'd see the problem that's clearly there.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Definition: religious (from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)

1: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>

2: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances <joined a religious order>

3 a: scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b: fervent, zealous

I think you qualify on all three accounts (and I am not saying that pejoratively - you could actually take it as a compliment :))

Of course you can choose to define "religious" differently, but the above definitions are probably what most of us are operating on - and they say nothing about a specific organized religion (other than the example given in No. 2, which is merely an example nothing more)

I'm not saying anything against you for his sake - what I'm saying against you is for your sake - because it is YOU that is speaking - and not God ..... unless you are claiming that every single utterance from your mouth is divinely inspired ?

Or that by reason alone of the faith you hold, you are exempt from any responsibility for your actions and utterances ?

Unless you believe that you have no free will or have no responsibility at all for your own actions that you, yourself, decide to undertake - and that you yourself are incapable of error - and that God is controlling your every move, you bear responsibility for what you say, just as I do for that which passes my lips.

I do not believe that you have killed anyone in the name of your religion - I don't even think that you have even remotely thought or considered anything like that. You are certainly free to have your own opinions, beliefs, and faith - and practice your religion as you see fit. I welcome it. I'd even fight for your rights to hold those opinions, beliefs, and your right to practice (something not lightly said I can assure you)

But I ask you this - do you feel that anything in the post that started this thread - or the other ones that I referred to does anything to cause one to love his fellow man greater ?

Or to view others of different races, creeds, or religions as his brethren ?
 
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