Fact check

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
We have one party masquerading as two, two wings of the same bird of prey. They both want largely the same thing, and do their best to engineer the primaries to keep the status quo. They aren't always successful, but they usually are.

Why do people not want to face these facts?

I think the problem isn't that people don't realize but the fact that is what most are comfortable with. Change takes time and I don't think it will be acomplished from the top down. Keep changing those in Congress and at the local level and eventually it can be acomplished.

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witness23

Veteran Expediter
Because the thread was about Romney.

Mormonism is a cult because they redefine God and Christ. And anyone who believes God was once a man, lives on a planet near a fictitious star called Kolob having spiritual children with His many fictitious wives, believes that Christ and the devil are brothers, and wears magic underwear--among their many other crazy-*** beliefs--that man is weird. He may not cheat on his wife or let his dog crap in your yard or borrow your lawnmower and not return it, but the same might be said of the Moonies or Branch Davidians.

Just to be clear, I don't think Romney's mormonism is reason not to vote for him(there is plenty of other reasons for that), but the things Amonger listed above are some of the things that they believe in.

Here is a good article on what the mormons believe and teach:

Link What Do Mormons Believe? Ex-Mormon Speaks Out

LDS Article 1: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”

“Mormons do not believe in the Trinity as we understand it. They believe that God and Jesus were separate physical people” who dwelled on the earth, Johnston said. God was Jesus’ father, and both men died.

“They do have a ‘Holy Ghost’ that is very similar to our understanding of the Holy Spirit,” Johnston said.

Article 2: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.”

“Mormons do not believe in original sin. In the LDS religion, you can’t sin until you reach the age of accountability, which is age 8. We are all born perfect,” Johnston explained.

Further, she said, if a child up to 7 years old commits any sin, even crimes such as murder, that child is not held responsible for their actions.

“After age 8 you are accountable. If you don’t confess your sins to a bishop and repent, you’re punished. These sins range from drinking alcohol, coffee or tea, or smoking cigarettes, to ‘major’ sins such as adultery, murder, etc.” Johnston said.

The punishment, Johnston said, is that you don’t get to reach the third heaven, where God dwells.

“There is no hell (in the Mormon religion),” she said. “There are three heavens, and you get into them depending on if you are a Mormon or not, if you are a good person but never a Mormon, or if you are a good Mormon who lives a righteous life.”

Mormons do believe Lucifer was Jesus’ brother, back on the original earth, where God and Jesus dwelled.

“This goes back to the theology that we were all spirit children together with God in the 'pre-existence,’” Johnston said.

The third heaven itself has three levels, based on piety. In order to reach the highest level, “where you can get your own planet, you must be a good Mormon, followed all the rules, married, in the temple …” Johnston explained.

“They don’t believe in a hell, per se … everyone, unless you’re really bad, goes to the first heaven, whether they are Mormon or not. They do believe in an ‘outer darkness,’ but that’s muddy … they aren’t really clear on the kind of people who would go there.”

Article 3: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

“This is basically the same as what I said before (on article 2). There is a general salvation, but to dwell with God, you have to be good. It delivers a lot of pressure,” Johnston said.

“You have to repent of every sin, pay your 10 percent tithe, raise your kids in the faith … it’s just this huge weight and this huge burden,” she said.

Article 4: “We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

“It’s absolutely required that you be baptized by immersion and receive the laying on of hands,” Johnston said. “If you’re not baptized, you’re not saved.”

Temples serve the purpose of atoning for those who have passed. Mormons go there, after getting a list of people (based on extensive genealogy research) to be baptized on behalf of. So basically, Johnston said, you’re working to save yourself and to save people who are already dead.

“Baptism happens for children at age 8. At age 12 they are allowed to go to the temple and do baptisms for the dead, and there is a lot more that happens at the temple. We would go like, twice every year as a youth group … they dunk you ‘on behalf of so-and-so’, and then repeat it about 10 times for different names. Then you go into this room and [church leaders] confirm them,” she said. “There are thousands – probably more than that – being done every day across the world.”

Article 5: “We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.”

“When Christ was on earth, He set up a priesthood and an organization of the church,” Johnston said. “After he died, the people fell away and the priesthood left the earth. It didn’t return until the priesthood was given to Joseph Smith.”

That means that born-again believers, Catholics, Jews and any other religion does not have “the fullness of the gospel” and therefore does not preach the true gospel.

Article 6: “We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.”

“This one is pretty self-explanatory. They (Mormons) believe that they have reorganized the church to be the same as when Jesus Christ was on the earth,” Johnston said.

Article 7: “We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.”

“This stuff was very common in the early Mormon Church, but it’s not something you see very much in the modern church,” Johnston said.

“Now it’s basically more that missionaries have the gift of tongues because they speak foreign languages. Healing – priests can heal with prayer and atonement.”

Article 8: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”

“That one opens the door,” Johnston said. “That’s where the can of worms comes out.”

“When this was taught to me as a child – they started by asking us to play the telephone game, where you whisper a phrase in your neighbor’s ear and it is passed down the line,” she said. “Obviously, at the end, the original phrase had changed and no longer resembles what was said at the beginning. The comparison was then made to the Bible – that it has been changed and revised over the years and so we can’t completely trust that it is accurate.”

“The problem with this is that this is a case of transmission error – not translation error. Very different things,” Johnston said.

“Unfortunately – this understanding that the Bible is not trustworthy – has huge implications. In enables what I call the ‘salad bar effect’ wherein people can pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to use/believe/learn from. If something makes you uncomfortable or doesn’t fit with your particular theology – you can throw it out. Add to that the fact that they believe the Book of Mormon to be ‘another testament of Christ.’ Now any uncomfortable doctrines from the Bible can be explained by this new book of scripture,” she said.

“I can’t count how many times as a teenager, I was challenged by my Christian friends about a scripture in the Bible such as Ephesians 2:8. I would be confused – but when I would bring it up to my parents or church leaders they would show me something like 2 Nephi 25:23 where it says we are saved by grace ‘after all we can do.’” Johnston said.

Article 9: “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”

“[In the LDS religion] there is a living prophet with continuous revelation,” Johnston explained. “But they haven’t added any new scripture in a long time. The last revelation took place in 1978, allowing blacks to receive the priesthood.”

To be fair, she noted, a lot of churches held similar beliefs about blacks until the Civil Rights movement. “The Mormons were just behind the times.”

Article 10: “We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.”

“Basically, the 10 tribes that were lost (in the original priesthood) will come back and gather in Missouri,” Johnston said. “That’s where the Garden of Eden was and that’s where Christ will be raised.”

Article 11: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

“This was a reaction to the times,” Johnston said. “Mormons were being persecuted, chased out … basically, it’s saying ‘don’t persecute us and we won’t persecute you.’”

Article 12: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

Johnston said this article is pretty straightforward. Mormons do not rebel against authority and they are not revolutionary.

“They may not agree with a leader but they will respect his authority,” she said.

Article 13: “We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul – We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”

“I believe this is honestly what they believe. I think Mormons, just like people of any other faith, want to do the right thing,” Johnston said. “They want to be honest, true, chaste, benevolent, etc. They are generous and kind and hard working. They love, honor and worship God. Unfortunately, they have a false understanding of who God is and as a result, they live with a huge burden to be good enough and do enough, [so] that Jesus will save them ‘after all they can do.’ It’s very sad, really,” she said.

Johnston said that it’s important for people to understand that different Mormons hold different understandings of the religion.

“Because the teaching is so fluid, you can talk to three different Mormons and get three different answers,” she said. “I can’t emphasize enough that each individual Mormon might have a slightly different view of the doctrine. Based on what era you grew up in, what region of the country you grew up in, whether your parents were active or inactive in the church, whether your family was generational Mormon or recent converts – all of these things affect what you were taught.”

Johnston had one last admonishment for Christians who are trying to understand and witness to Mormons.

“If I had any advice for a Christian who wanted to witness to a Mormon it would be to know your Bible! Don’t worry so much about what Mormons believe – know what you believe! And take a very serious and in-depth look at the historicity of the Bible – how did we get it, and can it be trusted? You should be able to confidently answer these questions before you attempt to share your faith.”
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
The same? No. Romney wants taxes to be a little lower. That's essentially the difference. I posted a list of their similarities a couple days ago. Both for gun control. Both for socialized medicine and socialism in general. Both for the bailouts. Both for the PATRIOT Act. Both for the NDAA and drones over American cities. Both for expanding government. Both for aggressive foreign wars against little brown people. Both for expansive executive power. Both believe the States are servants of the federal government rather than the reverse.

The same in every way that matters.

Where do you get this stuff? I haven't seen anything about Romney wanting gun control. He did early in his career, but nothing as of late suggests that. More of a flip-flopper on that issue. Same with healthcare. He was against the bailouts which Obama rips him for as we speak. Romney hasn't said anything about being for flying drones over the US that I am aware of. Maybe he has?
As for wanting to expand government, I haven't heard that from him either or others running against him.
Still doesn't mean he would be a great president, but I think you are a little slanted with some facts.
As for a Paul presidency, it isn't even something the democrats looked at from the beginning. If a Republican candidate can only muster maybe 10 percent of the Republican vote, he wouldn't be on their radar and he isn't anything they would fear.
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You couldn't be more wrong if you worked at it 24 hours a day. Your post is wrong in its entirety.

I guess that settles that.:rolleyes: You don't really know what your talking about imo. Blow out the candles, incense and tear up the pictures of Ron Paul in your room. There is more than one person that has the answers. Conservatism isn't about a cult of personality.
 

hossman2011

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
AMONGER is just a hater of the worst kind. I used to give you some cred for using intelligence to form your opinions. One mans religion is no better or worse than the next.. whether you agree with it or not it deserves yours and everyone's respect ... And this coming from a spiritual atheist which I am absolutely certain you will have no use for...
 

hossman2011

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
ALL the previous being said I am not certain I would have chosen Rommney form the republican candidate but I am absolutely certain he will do better for this country than O Bama.. By default?
maybe so for the better? undoubtedly!!!!! And still better in the big picture than your preferred choice of Paul...
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
As to the Mormon component, it just wouldn't be a deal buster for me personally. As to whether it is a cult is questionable. If the same parameters are used, then are we to say catholics or several other faiths are cults? I don't think so. Most are all a variation of the other that believe in God.
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
You dont believe as I believe therefor you are a cult.

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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
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You dont believe as I believe therefor you are a cult.

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Some would certainly like to believe that. At the end of the day, I am more impressed with a guy that served as a governor without collecting a state paycheck for four years than whether he is a Mormon or not. That is of course unless someone finds that to be untrue.
 
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chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
The religious aspect makes no difference to me...Romney was not my choice, but ill vote for him and if he is elected as he should be if the people have half inclination to fix what barry has done, but when he screws up, ill be the 1st to bust his chops just as i have with barry...

We are never going to get the perfect person in office because no one care totally appeal to everyone, so with that in mind, romeny impresses me more then barry ever will....
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Someone needs to go look up the definition of cult. The negative connotation of the term is a relatively recent addition to the lexicon. But in all definitions it is derived from cultivate. To grow something by using repeated procedures, namely traditions and rites. Catholicism is cult personified. All religions are cults to one degree or another. Any religion with rites of worship qualifies.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Someone needs to go look up the definition of cult. The negative connotation of the term is a relatively recent addition to the lexicon. But in all definitions it is derived from cultivate. To grow something by using repeated procedures, namely traditions and rites. Catholicism is cult personified. All religions are cults to one degree or another. Any religion with rites of worship qualifies.

We've covered this before.

Being that we're where we are, when we are i.e. within what you would include in "recent," i'm pretty sure we all know what definition is in play.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
The religious aspect makes no difference to me...Romney was not my choice, but ill vote for him and if he is elected as he should be if the people have half inclination to fix what barry has done, but when he screws up, ill be the 1st to bust his chops just as i have with barry...

We are never going to get the perfect person in office because no one care totally appeal to everyone, so with that in mind, romeny impresses me more then barry ever will....

So would you elect a Moonie or Heaven's Gate cultist?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
We've covered this before.

Being that we're where we are, when we are i.e. within what you would include in "recent," i'm pretty sure we all know what definition is in play.

And yet people continue to use the word incorrectly. They define Mormonism as a cult, but their reasons for doing so do not fall within the definition of a cult, regardless of which definition of cult is used, unless you also include all other religions with Mormonism. All they are doing is calling them a cult, and them trying to separate Mormons out away from other more popular, mainstream religions, in the hopes that people will associate the negative connotation of "cult" with Mormon. Cult is bad, therefor Mormon is bad. You've reinforced that tactic by introducing the wacko cults mentioned above, putting them in the same context as Mormons and snake handlers and Charismatics and a bunch of others that scare the begeebus out of some people.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
And yet people continue to use the word incorrectly. They define Mormonism as a cult, but their reasons for doing so do not fall within the definition of a cult, regardless of which definition of cult is used, unless you also include all other religions with Mormonism. All they are doing is calling them a cult, and them trying to separate Mormons out away from other more popular, mainstream religions, in the hopes that people will associate the negative connotation of "cult" with Mormon. Cult is bad, therefor Mormon is bad. You've reinforced that tactic by introducing the wacko cults mentioned above, putting them in the same context as Mormons and snake handlers and Charismatics and a bunch of others that scare the begeebus out of some people.

No, I listed several reasons in more than one thread of why they fit the modern definition of a cult, principally that they redefine direct and accepted terms to fit their made-up religion, perverting the truth. There are other things that make them a cult, but that's the main one.
 

BobWolf

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
You have to admit, Romney is the antithesis of the what the Republican party is "saying" what they want right now. That is why I am perplexed in his nomination.

Its sad to see the so-called 2010 referendum and the Tea-Party becoming a shell of itself in less than 2 years.

The reason the tea party faded away is they have become complacent, worn down by the media or were just a smoke screen manufactured by our government.

Its Like this.......
Democrat = Left Wing
Republican = Right Wing
Both are wings of the same bird of prey
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The reason the tea party faded away is they have become complacent, worn down by the media or were just a smoke screen manufactured by our government.

Its Like this.......
Democrat = Left Wing
Republican = Right Wing
Both are wings of the same bird of prey

I believe it is more like this:


Democrat = extreme left wing
Republican = left wing

Both ignore the Constitution. Both are ONLY out for their own power, glory and enrichment. Both seek to control the People.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
No, I listed several reasons in more than one thread of why they fit the modern definition of a cult, principally that they redefine direct and accepted terms to fit their made-up religion, perverting the truth. There are other things that make them a cult, but that's the main one.
And yet not a single reason you listed can be found in any definition of the word cult. Not one.

Calling them a cult is like calling "gay marriage"... "equal marriage", it's redefining the term to suit your own needs. Saying that they redefine accepted terms to fit their religion is one of those "well, duh" moments, because if you look at all flavors of all religions, every one of them have redefined one term or another by interpreting things to suit them. The fact that their religion is different than yours doesn't make them a cult, unless you accept that yours is a cult, too. Perverting the truth, or perverting what people believe to be the truth, isn't one of the definitions of cult, either.

The following are all of the definitions of cult. Please, if you would be so kind, pick out the one that applies to Mormons, but does not apply to your own or another religion, as I can't seem to find any of your reasons hidden amongst any of the definitions below. There's nothing about redefining anything in there. You said, "Mormonism is a cult because they redefine God and Christ," yet I don't see anything even remotely similar to that assertion in any of the definitions. It would appear that you are simply redefining cult to suit your needs.

cult (kʌlt)

— n
1. a specific system of religious worship, esp with reference to its rites and deity

2. a sect devoted to such a system

3. a quasi-religious organization using devious psychological techniques to gain and control adherents

4. sociol a group having an exclusive ideology and ritual practices centred on sacred symbols, esp one characterized by lack of organizational structure

5. intense interest in and devotion to a person, idea, or activity: the cult of yoga

6. the person, idea, etc, arousing such devotion

7. a. something regarded as fashionable or significant by a particular group
b. ( as modifier ): a cult show

8. ( modifier ) of, relating to, or characteristic of a cult or cults: a cult figure

[C17: from Latin cultus cultivation, refinement, from colere to till]


Word Origin & History

cult
1617, "worship," also "a particular form of worship," from Fr. culte, from L. cultus "care, cultivation, worship," originally "tended, cultivated," pp. of colere "to till" (see colony). Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals.


cult definition cultural

In anthropology, an organization for the conduct of ritual, magical, or other religious observances. Many so-called primitive tribes, for example, have ancestor cults, in which dead ancestors are considered divine and activities are organized to respect their memory and invoke their aid. A cult is also a religious group held together by a dominant, often charismatic individual, or by the worship of a divinity, an idol, or some other object.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
No, I listed several reasons in more than one thread of why they fit the modern definition of a cult, principally that they redefine direct and accepted terms to fit their made-up religion, perverting the truth. There are other things that make them a cult, but that's the main one.

You say they are "perverting the truth". What is the "truth" and whom decides that?
 
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