Do Firefighters have a duty to put out fires?

[Dreamer]

You all have probably seen this one... Firefighters stood and watched a man's home burn because he hadn't paid a $75.00 county services fee... ridiculous.

What next.. Cop says, sorry dude, can't save stop that mugger from shooting you.. you didn't pay a fee....


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39535911/ns/us_news-life/


Dale

 

[AMonger]

You all have probably seen this one... Firefighters stood and watched a man's home burn because he hadn't paid a $75.00 county services fee... ridiculous.

What next.. Cop says, sorry dude, can't save stop that mugger from shooting you.. you didn't pay a fee....


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39535911/ns/us_news-life/


Dale

I'm a little confused about this one. At first, I said, "YES! Let their house burn if they didn't pay the fee." There are some subscription-based fire protection companies, and if you don't pay the fee, you're not a customer, so they have no duty to save your home, much like a private guard service has no duty to protect your home unless you're their customer.

There was a similar incident in a wildfire out west a couple years ago. Private firemen trekked up a hill to save a house endangered by an approaching fire. In doing so, they passed up other homes, and iirc, the local government firemen were a little put out by this, that men and resources were used by someone who paid for them rather than where they might have been needed more.

But if the firemen are government workers, supported by taxes, then yes, they have a duty to put out the fire. They can collect the fee and a fine later. Private individuals or corporations have no such duty, legal, ethical, or moral, and can watch a house burn.

 

[Dreamer]

These were local, regular firemen. I agree, there could have been a 'penalty fee' assessed, or something.. even a 'trip fee' like some of our local EMT's assess, would have been better than letting the house burn.


Dale

 

[LDB]

How would any of those supposed firefighters look at themselves in the mirror after something like that?

 

[Turtle]

This happened in my back yard. South Fulton, TN and Fulton, KY are essentially one town with the state line running down the middle of it. They share the same Post Office. Some of you have probably been there, it's where the Purchase Parkway ends at the TN line, on the west side of town. Where it ends, if you turn left (east) and drive through town, you won't be able to tell Fulton from South Fulton. This is a place where an automobile accident can happen on State Line Road and an ambulance shows up, but if the injured is on the wrong side of the road, they won't help. Have to wait for the other ambulance to arrive. They're supposed to be more cooperative with each other in these matters, but they're not.

I guarantee you that the firefighters were upset at the situation. But I also guarantee you they were also following orders. The political figures down there are just plain weird. I can see it, absolutely, where someone said, "He didn't pay the fee, so he gets no water from us!" And also their reasoning being that if he was allowed to pay the fee on the spot, or bill him for it later, even with an added fine, then that would let everyone know that it's OK to not pay the fee unless you have a fire, so no one would pay the fee ahead of time. They're a strange bunch down there, I'm tellin' ya.

 

[greg334]

I understood the fire chief has the right to waive any need for fees and refused to do so to make this guy an example. Must be a really cheap or really mismanaged place to live if you have to pay for protection twice.

I would think because the home owner pays property tax at any level to support the city and the fire house is paid for by any public funding, they have a duty to protect property by doing their job.

There is a serious legal issue about the incident that was mentioned but I have not seen it in print - the home owner's insurance is a third party and the fire department did not their job regardless if there is a fee or not. The insurer is the one who may pursue damages against the fire chief and the city itself and I hope they do and win.

 

[chefdennis]

A couple of the "Professional Fire Fighter Asso. have come out blasting these guy as "unprofessional" while admitting that they were under no legal obligation to put out the fire.....

 

[LDB]

They are both unprofessional and immoral. They better hope karma doesn't exist.

 

[Turtle]

Well, the property was in the county, not the city, and the property in that county isn't taxed for fire protection services, because fire protection is provided by the city, so that's what they have the annual fee for.

They really and truly had no legal obligation to put out that fire. The policy has been in effect since 1990 and everybody knows about it. Same thing happened a couple of years ago and there was a town meeting about it, and it was decided that since the city's resources were limited, the line had to be drawn somewhere.

The Fire Chief down there, for what it's worth, is against the policy. But there's little he can do. Even the Cranick's don't blame the firefighters - they blame the Mayor (David Crocker) and the City Manager (Jeff Vowell). They also blame a little bit the County Commissioners (county seat is Union City) who have been known to toot their own horn on how "progressive" the county is.

Do keep in mind that what happened is a very conservative thing, the notion of the on-your-own society where you pay as you go and if you don't pay you don't get. Ironically, the "progressive" side of things is where things work for all people, regardless of their racial, religious, or economic background. Mayor Crocker is a Republican, as is the City Manager, and everyone filling a seat on the County Commission. I don't know if that matters, but it is interesting that Mayor Crocker told the local NBC affiliate in Paducah, who was on the scene while the fire was going on, that is was like auto insurance, where “if an auto owner allowed their vehicle insurance to lapse, they would not expect an insurance company to pay for an unprotected vehicle after it was wrecked.”

I don't know that I necessarily agree with it in this case, especially since the homeowner said he would reimburse the fire department for any and all charges incurred to put out the fire, but he's got a point.

 

[Freightdawg]

While I really feel sorry for the homeowner, I can sorta kinda understand it. Pay the fee, and get the protection. Wonder how his homeowners insurance deals with this?

 

[layoutshooter]

Not so fast. What is the law in that county/state? When I fought fire in PA we were a VOLUNTEER company. We funded ourselves, had NO subscription and fought ALL fires. In the same county IF you ran a subscription company it was NOT legal to fight fires of non paid residents. Those fire fighters are NOT city/town/borrugh/county or township employees, they were private contractors. WE were NOT employees either, we were volunteers.

Our ambulance company DID have subscriptions. It was a basic life support (BLS) service. We then provided service for those who paid at NO additional cost. Those who did NOT pay were provided service at a much higher cost. NO ONE was turned away. That was the terms of the county and the volunteer services. ALL county residents were charged for advanced life support (ALS). that was provided by the two hospitals in the area.

Nothing is as simple as it seems. I can tell you that it SUCKS to go in and risk your life for a person who REFUSED to support your efforts. Some even mocked us. Of course they did NOT put THEIR lives on the line or even 5 bucks for a sub sandwich when we were raising funds. Happened a LOT.

I with hold judgement. I DOUBT that ALL sides of that story have yet to come out.

 

[layoutshooter]

Not so fast. What is the law in that county/state? When I fought fire in PA we were a VOLUNTEER company. We funded ourselves, had NO subscription and fought ALL fires. In the same county IF you ran a subscription company it was NOT legal to fight fires of non paid residents. Those fire fighters are NOT city/town/borrugh/county or township employees, they were private contractors. WE were NOT employees either, we were volunteers.

Our ambulance company DID have subscriptions. It was a basic life support (BLS) service. We then provided service for those who paid at NO additional cost. Those who did NOT pay were provided service at a much higher cost. NO ONE was turned away. That was the terms of the county and the volunteer services. ALL county residents were charged for advanced life support (ALS). that was provided by the two hospitals in the area.

Nothing is as simple as it seems. I can tell you that it SUCKS to go in and risk your life for a person who REFUSED to support your efforts. Some even mocked us. Of course they did NOT put THEIR lives on the line or even 5 bucks for a sub sandwich when we were raising funds. Happened a LOT.

I with hold judgement. I DOUBT that ALL sides of that story have yet to come out.

 

[Turtle]

I with hold judgement. I DOUBT that ALL sides of that story have yet to come out.

No, it's all out there. If you live in the county and you want fire service, you must pay the annual fee, no exceptions. And everybody knows it. Including the home owners who have been living there forever, since well before 1990.

Prior to 1990 those in the county had no fire protection services what-so-ever. None. Nada. Zip. You called the city fire department and it was, "Sorry, can't help you."

It was then in 1990 when the fire protection subscription came into being.

Even with the policy being in place, you'd think that since the fire department had already responded with three trucks and were on the scene, had the means at hand to put out the fire, and had a reasonable expectation of being fully reimbursed for any and all costs, that they'd have put it out.

Fortunately, we have the esteemed Genn Beck and his producer Pat Gray (who was luckily on hand to play the part of Mr Cranick) to put it all in the proper perspective. Or at least as Beck see it.

 

[layoutshooter]

So are they a COUNTY owned contract company? Privately owned? Why even go that route? Why did each community form a volunteer company? Works well in most rural areas in the country. Hard work to do? Yep. Worth it? Yep. Lower taxes, good service and community involvement. Contract service lacks.

 

[layoutshooter]

So are they a COUNTY owned contract company? Privately owned? Why even go that route? Why did each community form a volunteer company? Works well in most rural areas in the country. Hard work to do? Yep. Worth it? Yep. Lower taxes, good service and community involvement. Contract service lacks.

 

[Angil82]

I think that it is ridiculous. I believe that any fire should be put out regardless. There could have been a person in there, that couldn't get out. Granted, he should have paid the $75 dollars, however, this could be there way of making more money off of the situation. Okay, we will fight the fire, however we are going to penalized you for not paying the $75 when you were supposed to. They should never just let anyone's house burn down. That is just ridiculous.

 

[Turtle]

So are they a COUNTY owned contract company?

No, it's the city fire department. Obion County does not have county-wide fire protection services. Fire subscriptions (a.k.a. "pay-to-spray") are pretty common in many areas of the country, but especially so in Tennessee where there are many rural areas not directly served by a fire district. The city of South Fulton only has about 2000 people in it. It's a really small town. The largest city in the county is Union City, about 11,000 people.

Privately owned?

I don't think so. It's the City Fire Department.

Why even go that route? Why did each community form a volunteer company? Works well in most rural areas in the country. Hard work to do? Yep. Worth it? Yep. Lower taxes, good service and community involvement. Contract service lacks.

Obion County is very rural with people living few and far between. There are only about 4 towns of any size that could be called towns, Union City (11,000 people), South Fulton (2000 people), Troy (1300 people), Obion (1100 people). The next biggies are Rives (330) and Hornbeak (435). County-wide, Obion County's population density is something like 60 people per square mile, but when you remove the above cities from the numbers, it's more like 12 per square mile. Figuring a family of 3 or 4 and that's not a lot of dwellings to set up community fire departments for.

The Fire subscriptions work pretty well all things considered, since the small amount paid allows the city fire departments throughout rural communities to pay for fire service that taxes do not otherwise pay for. But you gotta pay the annual fee. The fee in Obion County, incidentally, is due in January of each year. But you gotta pay it to get the service.

Clearly, the fire department should have put out the fire anyway, and then charged him out the ying-yang for it. People say well what if someone was in the house. There wasn't. That's always one of the first questions that gets answered. As for the pets in there that died, the fire department arrived just as the house was catching fire, fully 2 hours after the first of at least three 911 phone calls. It took 2 hours for the fire to spread from where it escaped the fire barrels to work its way to the house. There was plenty of time to get those three dogs and the cat out of the house.

The mayor and the city manager will likely have their feet held to the fire over this. My stepdad says even the people within the city limits of South Fulton are pretty mad at this one, and those in the county are furious, even the ones who paid their fee. (South Fulton is about 30 miles from where I live).

 

[chefdennis]

Just heard on the Radio and haven't looked for it yet, but it happened again in TN, a womans Trailer burnt to the ground as the fire dept watched cause she didn't pay the $75 fee.....

My bad, i think they just interviewed the guys wife...hey it was early and i had kust got up before my delivery....

 

[layoutshooter]

If it is a city based company then they should have put it out. I don't know how the contract is written. Is there a liability problem when fighting fires for a non-subscriber? Are the firefighters paid?

I believe that they should have never gone that route. I think that if you want something done right, do it yourself. I would think 3 times before I would ever move into an area with a subscription based system. I would always chose an area with a volunteer company over the subscription company.

The town where I lived in PA had 1500 people. The adjoining towns were smaller. We all worked together. All departments had basic engines. We specialized in tanker/water supply. The next town over had a ladder truck. ETC. We were NOT paid. We bought and paid for ALL our equipment AND each individual paid for our own training. Our company AVERAGED over 100 hours per year of State certified training per man and untold hours of in house training.

 

[layoutshooter]

If it is a city based company then they should have put it out. I don't know how the contract is written. Is there a liability problem when fighting fires for a non-subscriber? Are the firefighters paid?

I believe that they should have never gone that route. I think that if you want something done right, do it yourself. I would think 3 times before I would ever move into an area with a subscription based system. I would always chose an area with a volunteer company over the subscription company.

The town where I lived in PA had 1500 people. The adjoining towns were smaller. We all worked together. All departments had basic engines. We specialized in tanker/water supply. The next town over had a ladder truck. ETC. We were NOT paid. We bought and paid for ALL our equipment AND each individual paid for our own training. Our company AVERAGED over 100 hours per year of State certified training per man and untold hours of in house training.