Babies or tissue?

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I don't think anyone has questioned that a fetus is alive. The question is whether a fetus is a baby or a child or a person. That answer seems obvious.

If a fetus is a person, then an egg is a chicken - and there's a very good reason for the advice to refrain from counting your chickens before they're hatched: potential isn't equal to actual.
The right uses propaganda to insist that it is, despite what we can see for ourselves.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That is typical liberal left bovine feces and you are just full of it. Anything and everything to deflect and redirect from the fact that every aborted baby is a life taken away, an individual who will never have the opportunity to live and love life. Thank god I am "hilarious" and not imbecilic.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
That is typical liberal left bovine feces and you are just full of it. Anything and everything to deflect and redirect from the fact that every aborted baby is a life taken away, an individual who will never have the opportunity to live and love life. Thank god I am "hilarious" and not imbecilic.

Bovine feces, deflect, redirect-your vocab is impressive, logic: not so much. There is no deflection or redirection when you contend a baby is murdered, and I explain why that's not the case.
As the son of a physician, you should know how important it is to use the correct and accurate words to arrive at the correct conclusion. That's why medical terminology continues to be in the Latin: it's precise, where English is not. A 10-12 week fetus is not a baby, or a person, and the insistence on portraying it as such is where the deflection and redirection are.
When an argument attempts to evoke an emotional response, it's full of bovine feces rather than logic.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Don't count your babies before they're hatched.

bighatched.jpg
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
It's a human life. Period.



Ok, that's honest. It's also a human life when the person is in a permanent vegetative state, but we accept the reasons for ending that life.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: once you accept the ending of human life for any reason, the only thing left to decide is which reasons are good enough. More people believe that an unintended/unwanted pregnancy is reason enough to terminate a pregnancy, especially in the first trimester than those who don't believe it.
And you don't get to force your beliefs on my body, period.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Ok, that's honest. It's also a human life when the person is in a permanent vegetative state, but we accept the reasons for ending that life.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: once you accept the ending of human life for any reason, the only thing left to decide is which reasons are good enough. More people believe that an unintended/unwanted pregnancy is reason enough to terminate a pregnancy, especially in the first trimester than those who don't believe it.
And you don't get to force your beliefs on my body, period.

If you truly believe that more people believe that than don't, put it on the ballot. Get it OUT of the federal government, the courts, and let the people decide.

You have your beliefs, and you have no problem using the federal courts, the IRS, to use force to REQUIRE me to go along with them. THAT is EXACTLY why government, at any level, should stay out of health care. IT IS PERSONAL.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
If you truly believe that more people believe that than don't, put it on the ballot. Get it OUT of the federal government, the courts, and let the people decide.
Hey, here's an idea. Why not let each person decide for themselves? The right of the people to be secure in their persons, to their right of privacy, to their right to make their own decisions and take personal responsibility for their actions.

You have your beliefs, and you have no problem using the federal courts, the IRS, to use force to REQUIRE me to go along with them. THAT is EXACTLY why government, at any level, should stay out of health care. IT IS PERSONAL.
Well, the government isn't forcing you to have an abortion. But, if you put it to a ballot vote, then you are necessarily getting the government involved in personal, private decisions.

In Colorado, for example, an anti-abortion ballot issue was defeated 3-1 in 2008 and 2010, and in 2012 they couldn't even get enough signatures on the petition to get it o the ballot. They're at it again for 2014, trying to get a ballot initiative that redefines personhood to grant unborn persons full and complete legal rights of born persons, to make no distinctions between the born and unborn. Of course, the pre-born personhood concept raises broad practical, legal and ethical questions, many of which personhood groups have generally tried to play down in their politically charged amendment campaigns, because if they get involved in a debate about them, they'll look silly. It would open up the pregnant women to child abuse charges for drinking, smoking, eating anything that someone else deems unhealthy, for jogging, for slipping and falling down, for having a natural miscarriage, and for passing along genetic birth defect traits to her unborn person.

In 2006 Michigan tried to get a personhood issue on the ballot. They failed to get enough signatures. Their ballot measure was modeled after that of South Dakota, where South Dakota legislatures passed a state statute criminalizing abortion in 2006, which was later repealed through a voter referendum on the ballot by a wide margin. In 2008 South Dakota tried it again, and it was again defeated by the same wide margin.

Since 1970 there have been 102 state ballot votes banning abortion, of at least in the case of rape or incest, some not even allowing abortion for those cases. And so far all 102 have been defeated by popular vote. Realizing that an up/down vote banning abortion ain't gonna happen, the anti-abortion groups have in recent years tried the personhood angle or the redefining of "child" or "baby" to mean pre-born, without once mentioning abortion in the ballot measures. They believe they can sneak a de facto anti abortion law past the stupid masses, and even though the masses are pretty stupid, they aren't that stupid, and so far every redefining measure has been defeated. They're also trying to use cumbersome restrictions, like a 48 hour waiting period, informed consent by the mother (including mandatory ultrasounds and audible recordings of the fetus), requiring second trimester abortions take place not in clinics but only in hospitals and not on an outpatient basis, etc.

I gotta give Colorado's 2014 measure props, though, as they have worded that to be about as unobjectionable as it can get. And it just might sneak past the idiots on election day (though it probably won't hold up under a Supreme Court challenge based on the right to privacy).

“Shall there be an amendment to the Colorado constitution protecting pregnant women and unborn children by defining ‘person’ and ‘child’ in the Colorado criminal code and the Colorado wrongful death act to include unborn human beings?”

On the surface that seems pretty innocuous and straightforward, hardly something to object to, but it'll have all of the consequences, intended and unintended, that comes with the broad and vast legal, moral and ethical issues of personhood. Ironically, Colorado already has statues and criminal codes dealing specifically with the wrongful death or injury of a fetus.

The ballot measures that are likely to pass, however, are the ones that prevent the state from being forced to pay for abortions. Most states have conceded that women have the right to an abortion, but they draw the line at them having the right to have the state taxpayers pay for it.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I absolutely agree to leave it up to personal choice and responsibility. The "pro-choice" crowd does not want that either. True, they and the government are not FORCING abortions, yet, BUT, they ARE using force on the issue.

Can doctors refuse to perform abortions? Can hospitals? Can pharmacists refuse to sell birth control products that their moral code is opposed too? How come, under Obama Care, people who have no need for OBG/infant care or pediatric vision are FORCED to buy it? How about a private company that is opposed to certain things, do they have the chance to "opt out"?

We now have health care by force. The IRS, as you know, is an armed government agency. They are the one's now enforcing the nation's health care. Obama Care is JUST the beginning. As this mess continues the "agenda" will continue. We will NOT have "choice". We will ONLY have what the government dictates. No freedom, no choice. Just dictates.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Can doctors refuse to perform abortions?
Yes

Can hospitals?
Depends. Most can, some can't.

Can pharmacists refuse to sell birth control products that their moral code is opposed too?
Depends. 8 states (CA, IL, ME, MA, NV, NJ, WA, WI) explicitly require pharmacists or pharmacies to provide medication to patients. In 7 states (AL, DE, NY, NC, OR, PA, TX) pharmacy boards allow refusals, but prohibit pharmacists from obstructing patient access to medication (the pharmacist must allow the prescription to be transferred to another pharmacy). 8 states (AZ, AR, GA, ID, MS, and SS) have laws or regulations that specifically allow pharmacies or pharmacists to refuse for religious or moral reasons without critical protections for patients, such as requirements to refer or transfer prescriptions. The other 27 states do not have specific, explicit laws one way or the other, but have general guidelines from state statutes or pharmacy boards which require pharmacists to refuse to dispense only for reasons such as professional or medical considerations (such as potentially harmful contraindication, interactions with other drugs, improper dosage, and suspected drug abuse or misuse) as opposed to personal judgments.

How come, under Obama Care, people who have no need for OBG/infant care or pediatric vision are FORCED to buy it?

Ironically, pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control products on moral grounds are the most hypocritical of the hypocritical. They refuse to fill birth control pills, but have no problem filling (and taking your money for) prescriptions that alter and damage the mind and body. Vicodin and Oxycotin account for more deaths than ALL of the illegal drugs, like cocaine, meth, heroin, LSD, etc., combined. 50% of Americans take at least one type prescription drug on a regular basis, and 80% take some kind of pharmaceutical drug (like Tylenol) regularly. That's ridiculous. Pharmacists, like bar tenders, should say, "You've had enough."
The same reason young, healthy adults who don't want or need health insurance are forced to buy it - because Obamacare, Obama, and those who authored the legislation are pure evil.

How about a private company that is opposed to certain things, do they have the chance to "opt out"?
Depends on the company and the "certain things" and how the various plans are structured.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
If you truly believe that more people believe that than don't, put it on the ballot. Get it OUT of the federal government, the courts, and let the people decide.

Tell that to the legislators [especially the Tea Party Republicans vote into office 2 years ago] seeing as how they're the ones who refuse to do exactly that. Because they already know how that will work, [as Turtle's examples prove] they're simply writing and passing legislation that fits their ideology. Then the people have to take it to court to get it overturned, and they do, but it doesn't stop the whole thing happening again. Because they cannot accept that people don't want their ideology.

You have your beliefs, and you have no problem using the federal courts, the IRS, to use force to REQUIRE me to go along with them. THAT is EXACTLY why government, at any level, should stay out of health care. IT IS PERSONAL.

Do the words "broken record" mean anything to you?
BTW: I've been forced to pay for insurance [worker's comp] for all the years I've been driving, and no one has ever screamed "that's unconstitutional!" about it - not a whimper of protest.
Here's a newsflash: you scream bloody murder about paying for other people's medical care, but guess what? We've ALL been paying for it, all along, because it's that or we let people die, and we're not quite that uncivilized.
Well, most of us aren't.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Do the words "broken record" mean anything to you?
BTW: I've been forced to pay for insurance [worker's comp] for all the years I've been driving, and no one has ever screamed "that's unconstitutional!" about it - not a whimper of protest.
Here's a newsflash: you scream bloody murder about paying for other people's medical care, but guess what? We've ALL been paying for it, all along, because it's that or we let people die, and we're not quite that uncivilized.
Well, most of us aren't.

How is all this socialism/Marxism working out? Has EVERYONE been covered? Does EVERYONE have EQUAL coverage? Is it getting more or less expensive? Has the numbers of people on welfare/food stamps and all other forms of unearned hand outs gone up or down since LBJ?

I forget what we pay but it's not worker's comp and it is at the STATE level, not federal, as far as I know, may be wrong on that one, but I don't THINK so. Besides I don't HAVE to drive a truck, Obama Care is a FORCED requirement for breathing. HUGE difference.

You calling my words a "broken record" is like the pot calling the kettle cast iron. All you do is make excuses why the government should take care of everyone. Don't work, never has, never will.
 
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