Leftist Censorship?

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
My problem is that you people have identified the problem, but not the solution. I don't think the MSM will have a come to Jesus moment in my life time so I'm left to come up with the truth on my own.
There's your solution right there, dig to find the truth on your own.

It's not nearly as easy as it should be, since we are constantly bombarded on all sides with twists and distortions of the truth. Confirming something from two difference sources generally makes something a confident fact, but they need to be at least two independent sources. For example, the above story on the college classroom can be found, almost verbatim, parroted at hundreds or thousands of different blogs. You confirm things at FoxNation, Briebart, The Blaze and WND and conclude what they all say is a fact, because they're not independent sources. They are all using the same source material and all have the same slant.

As RLENT aptly noted, you have to be willing to approach things with an open mind, realize and accept that your own preconceived ideas just might be wrong (as unsettling and uncomfortable as that might be). You have to approach things from the same point of view as a juror in a trial, one who knows that both sides want to win and they'll twist and distort things, even lie, to get you to believe them.

In the college classroom story, let's take a close look. Fact: The Onion and Fox News were listed as prohibited sources for research articles. Then we have this sentence: "No other media or research sources — such as, say, just for example, MSNBC — appear to be prohibited outright."
Most people, especially those with a base of preconceived ideas and biases, will take that at face value as a fact. In the context of the reported list of prohibited sources, the sentence is a true fact, as in that very narrow context no other sources indeed "appear to be prohibited outright." But is that the true context of the fact? As it turns out, no. The sentence is pure, rationalized, editorial comment, and to someone with an open mind looking for the truth, it should be ignored.

It's a sentence that begs a question, a question that was never asked (or at least, was never never reported). That question being, "Were those, indeed, the only prohibited sources?" And that sentence set the tone of the bias and became the foundation for the article.

Another favorite sentence in the article that molds thought and opinion is, "Upset students and some parents complained to local press outlets about what they perceived as forced political bias."
That doesn't really tell you very much. "Upset students" could be two, and "some parents" could be one set of uninformed wackos. And "perceived" means something speculated and believed. But to those who aren't necessarily looking for the truth in context, it tells them that many students and parents were outraged about a forced political bias, even though no forced-bias has been shown. It's only believed, and it's believed on limited information, at that. They also don't tell you that "the local press outlets" consists totally of one conservative shock jock where they called into him on his radio show to voice their complaints.

The use of words like "appear", "perceived" and "apparently" are red flags to indicate opinion, less-than-complete facts, and speculation. But to most people, and especially those who already have the same prejudiced bias on the subject, those words get subconsciously transformed into the far more definitive "are", "know", and "is".

By the end of the article, using the foundation of speculation and literal bias, the characterization of "the Fox News-hating prof" is met by the reader as
a "well, duh!" redundant moment. The only way a journalist can ethically characterize the professor as a "Fox News-hating prof" is if that journalist could quote the professor saying, "I hate Fox News." Anything else is pure, unadulterated speculation.

So, you have to use a little common sense (do professors really conduct themselves and their classes in this manner, by handing out instructions on paper with no other additional information or context?) and try to find more information, especially information from completely different sources. One, certainly, would be a student in the class. The more students you can use as research sources the better. Another would be independent news outlets not affiliated with Fox News, since it the article was sourced from Fox News. Local newspapers is a good start. If the story isn't also reported in other news outlets as actual news, then that's a red flag that it's not even news. And another source would be academic publications and news sources, like the University newspaper or places like Inside Higher Ed where they deal with big picture issues of things that happen all across academia.

Just as an example lets use the financial melt down. The left blamed the right and vise versa. Turtle said somewhere in this thread that two sources could make it a fact. Heck I can come up with twenty sources for either side.
News facts are garnered from the Five Ws, the Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How. (I know that's five and one H. It's sometimes called "The Five Ws and one H," or even the "Six Ws," but journalists know what you mean when you say the Five Ws).


  • Who is it about?
  • What happened?
  • When did it take place?
  • Where did it take place?
  • Why did it happen?
  • How did it happen

The problem comes when the reporter, especially in political stories, answer the "Why did it happen?" with their own interpretation of why. Many times the "why" isn't known, but many reporters (and/or news agencies) will give you that "why" in order to tell you what to think about it. (One red flag is when a reporter uses the word "Because" to describe why - it's not a W or an H).

Anything you are told beyond the scope of the Five Ws is extraneous crap that can be avoided, because all of it, every word of it, is there to tell what to think about the story.

Yeah, in the case of the financial meltdown, both sides blamed each other, but it's not really blame you're looking for, it's the details and facts. Once you have those, you don't have to worry about placing blame, because you'll know what happened. A lot of people accept a "blame" as a fact, but it's editorial, an accusation, assertion. And without evidence to back it up, it means nothing.

In a case like that, where one side blames the other, you can often discern many of the facts just using those two sources (let's say, for the sake of argument, that those two sources are Fox News and MSNBC, each the antithesis of the other). You look at both sides carefully to find facts they are in agreement with. There's your foundation. You then look at the facts which they disagree with, knowing full well that each side will omit information that makes them look bad or they find uncomfortable to deal with. You then turn to completely difference sources, not your favorite Blogger or partisan Web site, for more facts to glean. If you are looking to confirm a Fox News assertion as being a fact, you try to find two additional, completely unrelated sources, who state the same fact. As long as you are reasonably confident that nether used Fox News as their source, then you can be reasonably confident that it's an independent fact, and you can trust Fox News on that one fact.

As for Hagel getting conformed, and whether or not he should be, you have to look at his record yourself, rather than being told what to think, and then make up your own mind. I agree with RLENT on Hagel, because Hagel has been shown to be cautious, measured, and pragmatic. I am, by nature, very pragmatic. I try my best to see both sides of an issue, mainly because I'm not so arrogant to think my own personal opinion is always right. The reason I'm not so arrogant is because I've been wrong about many things on many occasions. If I've been wrong once, I can be wrong again.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Turtle,
I recommend teaching as your next career. You have the ability to utilize logic and examples to clearly explain a position and the patience to re-explain it in different terms to the learning challenged.
Obviously, you will not get through to all of the special students but I commend you for trying. ;)

Your use of the terms "learning challenged" and "special students" are personal attacks regarding a forum member and I thought wasn't condoned here on this forum. No name calling and civil discourse was reiterated by Dreamer over a week ago in another thread. I assume it pertains to all the threads.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
How is that an attack on "A" forum member when no forum member was named or directly referred to, and the quoted phrases were used in both the general and plural context?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Your use of the terms "learning challenged" and "special students" are personal attacks regarding a forum member and I thought wasn't condoned here on this forum. No name calling and civil discourse was reiterated by Dreamer over a week ago in another thread. I assume it pertains to all the threads.
Good grief ...

I had no idea you had such tender sensibilities there Mutt ...

Note to self: No kicking others in their man-gina's ...
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Your use of the terms "learning challenged" and "special students" are personal attacks regarding a forum member and I thought wasn't condoned here on this forum. No name calling and civil discourse was reiterated by Dreamer over a week ago in another thread. I assume it pertains to all the threads.

I say this as a friend: you really don't want to go there, ok? ;)
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
In response to JamminJim's query about where to find the truth, I like Wiki. Not so much for what it says, but for the footnotes, which lead to the source of the material.
I also like to read the comments after the story, which can be a lot of blahblahblah [just like here, lol] but you can sometimes find one written by someone who has some genuine knowledge and/or insight to add, and that's a big help.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I also like to read the comments after the story, which can be a lot of blahblahblah [just like here, lol] but you can sometimes find one written by someone who has some genuine knowledge and/or insight to add, and that's a big help.
Yup ... same here ... ;)

Sometimes I'll read comments up into the hundreds ... just looking for that lonely diamond in the rough ...
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Okay in the next few says I will try to thoroughly research something, and post my results here. Won't be some massive undertaking but will start small.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
After all this are you saying Fox News isn't "fair and balanced"? I've been so misled. :cool:
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
...there are those who will defend and have actually defended Fox News as being "fair and balanced" in their lying.
Just to be clear about "fair and balanced" in their lying - I never said that.
The notion that Fox News lies less, or somehow their lies aren't as egregious as everyone else's lies is just absurd.
Once again - we have a difference of opinion here, and perhaps a difference of perspective. I don't think there have been any instances of Fox perpetrating hoaxes on their viewers and the world in general that are anywhere near as egregious as Rathergate (CBS), the phony exploding pickup trucks (NBC) and the Food Lion fraud (ABC), and I've offered sources to support that position. ABC had to pay a $5.5 Mil settlement as a result of their intentionally fabricated slander. Referring to the Clemens quote - there are lies and there are da***d lies. My opinion is there are degrees of credibility to be seen in the media, and none of them are snow-white pure.
What it boils down to is whether or not you prefer the lies to the truth. If you do, then keep defending your chosen source of lies. But know that it makes you look like an easily manipulated fool when you do, and that just because there are a lot of other fools who have been manipulated into thinking the same way doesn't mean you are any less of a fool.
I emphasized the first sentence in the above block because it's a false premise. What follows it - to use a previously employed phrase - is a load of crap. If it's meant to imply that anyone who prefers to watch one network over another is an "easily manipulated fool" is nonsense. Liberals may find MSNBC to be more credible while conservatives obviously prefer Fox News. But the MSNBC audience is not comprised totally of fools and neither is that of Fox. The difference is that Liberals have established a campaign to promote a stereotype of conservatives as haters, rednecks, racists, backward hicks, etc while portraying themselves as enlightened, tolerant and compassionate. Those that buy into that notion could be considered "easily manipulated fools" and really don't offer substance for any sort of discussion.
I'm kinda thinking I like "Easily Manipulated Fool" better than "Kool-Aid Drinker".
It's more accurately descriptive and less metaphorical.
That would only apply to someone who looks at things in black & white and chooses to believe everything they hear from their preferred source of info.

I don't know why you would still be waiting, since I answered that as completely as I could. I stated, pretty plainly I thought, that a lot of little lies add up to rather egregious, and they are comparable to one large, egregious lie. That one (big lie) isn't any better or any worse than another (lots of little lies). That they are both equal in my opinion. I also stated that I don't trust any of them, because they all lie to one degree or another. I also asked you if you can trust someone who lies, and you haven't answered. Since it's been shown, and has not been refuted or denied, that all of the major broadcast and cable news networks lie, I eagerly await your answer.
I believe my answer has already been provided, but I'll go over it again. My opinion (and that of S.L. Clemens) is that there are degrees in the maliciousness of lies, and our legal system supports this notion. With that in mind, it's my opinion that some news sources are more credible than others; my opinion is that Fox News is more likely to offer factual content than CBS, and the same for The Wall Street Journal compared to The National Enquirer. It doesn't make sense to label them all as totally incredible because they sometimes lie or make mistakes. The world of news and information is not, and never has been black & white. In business, I don't trust liars; when I'm reading the newspaper or listening to a network it's my responsibility to digest information with a generous helping of skepticism. However, comparing business to the news - especially political news - is apples and oranges.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
How is that an attack on "A" forum member when no forum member was named or directly referred to, and the quoted phrases were used in both the general and plural context?

Why don't you use your five W's and H so you could find out the context of the remarks. You will find that, while they were used in a general and plural sentence, the context and sequence of his post to you was definitely referring to someone in the singular.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Any references were inferred, not directly implied, regardless of the context. No one called anyone a name. If you think you have a legitimate complaint, then report the post and the Mods and Admins will take a look at it and make a decision. Otherwise, your post only serves as a an attempt at deflection to derail the conversion and put the attention onto the accused. Wrongly accusing someone of something in an attempt to deflect the attention away from the discussion, away from yourself, or to hijack the thread, could very easily be considered a personal attack in and of itself.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Fox Washington managing editor Bill Sammon, who is also one of the vice-presidents of Fox News, admitted on camera that he had gone on the air near the end of Obama's first presidential campaign and speculated, in factual fashion, that Obama was a socialist. Whether you believe Obama is or not is irrelevant, as Sammon did so without any evidence to back it up, and even admitted privately, and later publicly, that the notion was "far fetched." But he didn't limit his musings to his own on-air appearances. Sammon also pushed Fox News colleagues to play the socialism card. On October 27, 2008, Sammon sent an e-mail to staffers highlighting what he described as "Obama's references to socialism, liberalism, Marxism and Marxists" in his 1995 autobiography Dreams From My Father, and wanted the on-air personalities and reporters to concentrate on the socialist angle. Shortly after sending the email, Sammon appeared on two Fox News programsto discuss his research and also wrote a FoxNews.com piece about Obama's "affinity to Marxists." He did all this knowing full well that is wan't news, that it was opinion, and that it was a distortion of the facts. That's not some goofy pimple-faced editor that screwed up, this is the managing editor of the Washington Bureau and an executing at the network.





I know this is an older post,but I haven't had time to respond to at least one of the issues you raised in this one. It is regarding Bill Sammon, the current managing editor of Fox News and the comments about when he was referring to Obama as a socialist and thought that it might be "farfertched'. First of all, at the time he said the socialist comments, it was right after Obama made comments to a Toledo man where he said he wanted to" spread the wealth around". Sammon at that time, when he went on the air, was not the managing editor or V.P. at Fox. He was a Fox News contributer. Just to clarify that point. He also clarified the far fetched comment .

From article:
In an interview, Sammon says his reference to “mischievous speculation” was “my probably in artful way of saying, ‘Can you believe how far this thing has come?’” The socialism question indeed “struck me as a far-fetched idea” in 2008. “I considered it kind of a remarkable notion that we would even be having the conversation.” He doesn’t regret repeatedly raising it on the air because, Sammon says, “it was a main point of discussion on all the channels, in all the media”—and by 2009 he was “astonished by how the needle had moved.”


This was also said by Sammon on the cruise when he gave that speech and used the far fetched comment. It gives it better context of his remarks:

“Now imagine my surprise when this year, I witness President Barack Obama standing in the cross hall of the White House and having taken over the American car industry, look into the camera, and announce to the nation essentially, that he would personally vouch for the warranty on your car’s muffler. All of a sudden, the debate over whether America was heading for socialism seemed anything but far-fetched…The debate over whether America is headed for socialism seems all too real, especially to those who still believe in capitalism.”

No, Bill Sammon Didn?t Lie About Thinking Obama Was a Socialist (Which He Totally Is) | NewsReal Blog
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Any references were inferred, not directly implied, regardless of the context. No one called anyone a name. If you think you have a legitimate complaint, then report the post and the Mods and Admins will take a look at it and make a decision. Otherwise, your post only serves as a an attempt at deflection to derail the conversion and put the attention onto the accused. Wrongly accusing someone of something in an attempt to deflect the attention away from the discussion, away from yourself, or to hijack the thread, could very easily be considered a personal attack in and of itself.

Not really, but never mind.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"Mischievous Speculation." Yeah, that's what I look for when trying to decide on a reliable and credible new source.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
......Otherwise, your post only serves as a an attempt at deflection to derail the conversion and put the attention onto the accused. Wrongly accusing someone of something in an attempt to deflect the attention away from the discussion, away from yourself, or to hijack the thread, could very easily be considered a personal attack in and of itself.

And you're really only pointing this out to Muttly.....Right? Not reprimanding him.....not admonishing him over this......he didn't get an infraction........etc. Right?

Hopefully not.........

If so.....Clear double standards on who gets something pointed out to them that may / may not be right.

Remember the Boy Scouts thread......where we were discussing Gays being accepted into the BS due to Public Pressure created by a self-serving group of people that had no interest in the BS other than them not accepting gays??? One of your Co-Drivers....Co-Conspirators......known Board Troll personally attacked another member in the exact same instance you describe above......

YOU decry the badgering & intimidation of the BSA, while simultaneously engaging in the same tactics against Planned Parenthood and abortion, and YOU fail [as usual] to see the sheer hypocrisy of your complaints.

That board Troll went from a discussion about gays in the Boy Scouts to Abortion issues and falsely accused another member of having Beliefs in an Ideology that he has refused to Share with anyone here on this board ever in their whole time here. But yet..............that Hypocrisy......Blatant Personal Attack......was never addressed over there in that discussion.

Just something I thought needed to be pointed out............

Back to Ya'lls Discussion.........:rolleyes:
 
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