Abortion-should she have gotten the dealth penalty

[paullud]

If, as you say, there is no guaranteed freedom FROM religion, then you are advocating that a religion be FORCED onto people, whether they like it or not.

I am not saying they should be forced to worship but non-christians should realize that they will have to be tolerant of the majority and will may be inconvenienced.

OK, which religion?


Incidentally, "We know our founders intended this country to be a Christian country by giving us guaranteed rights by our Creator," is exceedingly arrogant and warped logic. If the founder intended this to be a Christian country, then they would have plainly said so.

They did by guaranteeing rights by our Creator.

Also, a guaranteed freedom OF something, like speech, religion, press, also must also guarantee the freedom NOT to do the same thing, otherwise there is no freedom in either. You have the right to say whatever you want, and you also have the right to say nothing at all - you cannot be compelled to speak. You have the right to worship, but you cannot be compelled worship. You have the right to print all the news that's fit to print, just like you have the right to print nothing at all. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but you cannot be forced to do the same. You have the right to peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances, but you cannot be forced to do either one[/QUOTE]

I am not saying we should be forcing people to do anything.

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[pandora2112]

"endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights"

Game over, end of story. That is from the Declaration of Independence so my knowledge on history is just fine. This country was not established to keep people from having to deal with religion as is quite clear by the document that founded our country. I know people like to claim separation of church and state but it was never put there by the founders of our country.

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One mention of a Creator...not Our Creator the Christian God and you have the arrogance to believe they must be talking about your god?
So after independence was won if we were supposed to be a Christian nation why didn't we become a theocracy? Why did Thomas Jefferson and many others say the worse thing that could happen would be for religious rule to happen?

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[paullud]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?
The original concerns of our founders was that the Government not be allowed to establish a National religion.
In 1797, President John Adams signed the Tripoli treaty and said the following:



An exclusively Christian society was NOT desired and freedom of religion includes all religions to include the Jewish, Muslims, Mormans, Scientologists, Church of Science, etc.. It could even include the Church of Free Choice if someone wanted to found that one.

The Tripoli Treaty is not one of our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence that mentions our Creator in it is though. I am not saying someone cannot be a practicing Muslim or Jew in this country so I am not sure what the last part of your post is about.

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[pandora2112]

Not all of our founding fathers were Christian nor backed a Christian nation...here's just a small sample of it:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/founding.html

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[paullud]

Not all of our founding fathers were Christian nor backed a Christian nation...here's just a small sample of it:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/founding.html

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

I'm not sure how accurate those quotes are or if they are even real but they did not prove what you claim. The founders did not like the idea of corrupt religious leaders using religion to hold down people but not what you are claiming.

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[pandora2112]

I'm not sure how accurate those quotes are or if they are even real but they did not prove what you claim. The founders did not like the idea of corrupt religious leaders using religion to hold down people but not what you are claiming.

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Okay so those quotes prove they wanted a Christian nation? Smh...okay keep your very wrong perception of our history. Some people refuse to believe anything contrary to what they think it should be or is even when history and the present proves them wrong.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[Turtle]

The founding documents which mention a creator do not define what or who that creator is. The creator might by any number of things depending on your religion. As far as the minority being inconvenienced and having to tolerate the Christian majority, for one, if you're going to preach tolerance then you have to practice it, and two, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were specifically written to prevent a majority from dictating things to the minority.

 

[paullud]

Okay so those quotes prove they wanted a Christian nation? Smh...okay keep your very wrong perception of our history. Some people refuse to believe anything contrary to what they think it should be or is even when history and the present proves them wrong.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

I look at things from different points of view but base my decision based on the information we have. You want it to be different so you are looking for loopholes, just read the words that are there. Can you give me one quote from the link you provided that says anyone of those men is not Christian as you claim? Can you give me one that says they wanted Christian beliefs completely out of the government? They did not like the idea of religion causing wars or the monarch type control the church exhibited in other countries, neither do I. How can you say my perception is wrong when you have not been able to show how? I have given you some very clear and simple examples of evidence to show why I believe what I do but you haven't done that yet. Can you share some evidence to back up your claims about our founders?

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[paullud]

The founding documents which mention a creator do not define what or who that creator is. The creator might by any number of things depending on your religion. As far as the minority being inconvenienced and having to tolerate the Christian majority, for one, if you're going to preach tolerance then you have to practice it, and two, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were specifically written to prevent a majority from dictating things to the minority.

When you consider the timeframe that the word was used it is pretty clear they meant God. I do show tolerance, I am not saying we should persecute others. The majority has been able to dictate what others do from the beginning, that's what voting is all about.

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[pandora2112]

Thomas Paine was a deist it says so in the link!! The link was about how they did not want a Christian nation...I'm looking for a loophole yet 55 men of various religious beliefs sat around and wrote our founding documents yet forgot to say anywhere in these documents "We the people in order to form our Christian nation...." or name a state religion or make our motto a Christian one?!?
E pluribis unum was their choice for our official motto. In 1956 bc of the communist scare congress changed it to In God we trust...sounds like a bunch of Christian nation forming people really?!?

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[paullud]

Thomas Paine was a deist it says so in the link!! The link was about how they did not want a Christian nation...I'm looking for a loophole yet 55 men of various religious beliefs sat around and wrote our founding documents yet forgot to say anywhere in these documents "We the people in order to form our Christian nation...." or name a state religion or make our motto a Christian one?!?
E pluribis unum was their choice for our official motto. In 1956 bc of the communist scare congress changed it to In God we trust...sounds like a bunch of Christian nation forming people really?!?

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

Well that proves my point, you want it to be different so you are grasping for straws. Thomas Paine is not a founding father so his beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion.

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[paullud]

I saw nothing in the link that said they did not want a Christian nation, can you show me the quotes that say that? E pluribus unum or out of many, one which would actually completely contradict your point that they wanted many different things.

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[cheri1122]

well I did say not having intercourse... I did not say anything about sex...

So what are you saying now - that anything except intercourse is acceptable between unmarried consenting adults?

although waiting period until you have a ring and a date is a good practice too...

But waiting to marry until one is 100% certain they have come to know the right person to marry [till death do they part] would have a much more positive effect on marriage, IMO. Proclaiming marriage as the time when sex - excuse me, intercourse is allowed leads to a whole lot of immature people deciding someone is Mr/Ms Right just because they want to have sex, and that's the only 'socially acceptable' way to do it.
And you wonder why marriage needs defending?!

and any legitimate study shows that a traditional family IS the best environment to raise a child in.. just a fact..

I said that already, didn't I?

and I know it is unrealistic to expect anyone to practice personal responsibility and self control..

What's unrealistic is expecting human beings to delay having sex until they're ready to marry. The big flaw in that plan is that it supposes that everyone will get married [except they don't] and those that do will meet Mr/Ms Right at an age some time before retirement - but what if they don't?

because we have raised a generation of " I shouldn't have to wait for anything" very sad...

Speak for yourself. I've raised two daughters to maturity without any teen pregnancies, [one's a wife and mother, working full time as an LPN while going to school for her RN degree, the younger is single and working 2 jobs, and has for years], so spare me the "we've raised a generation of .." crapola because I haven't, ok?

 

[pandora2112]

You know what I'm done, you will continue to see the Christian nation slant even though you have no evidence to support that assumption and you dismiss any logic suggestion anything to the contrary. Where's your proof? You claim this was supposed to Christian nation as a fact yet we were granted many freedoms including that of religion and except for mention of a creator (that can mean many things, doesn't mean your Christian god, they were being inclusive of all beliefs!) our founding fathers left god out of our country's formation. There is so much proof to suggest we were not meant to be a Christian nation letters, quotes, documents, our motto (which is from many one as in from many different people one country not one religion) and much more. We are not a theocracy...is that not proof of their intentions?!? Now if you'll excuse me I have cauldron to stir at least until your Christian nation burns me at the stake bc that's what a true Christian nation would do!!!

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[pandora2112]

Oh and just so you know Thomas Paine was quite important during the founding of our nation...signer or not does not make him irrelevant.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[cheri1122]

I saw nothing in the link that said they did not want a Christian nation, can you show me the quotes that say that? E pluribus unum or out of many, one which would actually completely contradict your point that they wanted many different things.

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"As the Government of the United States was not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" is a direct and unimpeachable quote from Thomas Jefferson - you can nitpick ['it's not a '"founding document"] but you're just playing with semantics, dude. As Turtle pointed out, IF the Christian religion was what the 'founding fathers' meant, it's what they would have said: explicitly and emphatically.
E pluribus unum doesn't contradict Pandora's point, it proves it: out of many [religions, philosophies, beliefs] one [nation].
The founding fathers knew what they were doing, and what they hoped to accomplish: freedom from religious tyranny.
We still haven't got there, sigh.

 

[pandora2112]

"As the Government of the United States was not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" is a direct and unimpeachable quote from Thomas Jefferson - you can nitpick ['it's not a '"founding document"] but you're just playing with semantics, dude. As Turtle pointed out, IF the Christian religion was what the 'founding fathers' meant, it's what they would have said: explicitly and emphatically.
E pluribus unum doesn't contradict Pandora's point, it proves it: out of many [religions, philosophies, beliefs] one [nation].
The founding fathers knew what they were doing, and what they hoped to accomplish: freedom from religious tyranny.
We still haven't got there, sigh.

:thumbup:

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[Humble2drive]

Oh and just so you know Thomas Paine was quite important during the founding of our nation...signer or not does not make him irrelevant.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

Thomas Paine has always been considered a founding father.
You are trying to have a logical debate with someone who is writing their own history and rules. Good luck with that.

BTW - I like the new avatar.

 

[pandora2112]

Thomas Paine has always been considered a founding father.
You are trying to have a logical debate with someone who is writing their own history and rules. Good luck with that.

BTW - I like the new avatar.

I'm stubborn but even I give up after hitting a brick wall a few times!
And thanks!

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

 

[Turtle]

Paul, sorry but you're so far out in left field compared with actual history that it's both funny and a little disturbing. You're exhibiting revisionist history on an absurd scale, almost to the point where it's beginning to look like you're trolling. Thomas Paine was, absolutely, one of the Founding Fathers. And if you consider the time frame, and the fact that the Founding Fathers were quite verbose and specific in their writings, if they had meant God, or the Christian God, they wouldn't have used a generic euphemism like "creator" - they would have said "God".

The Declaration of Independence was a declaration to the world not of the rights of men contained within the states united, but the rights of all men everywhere. The truths so started were self-evident that all men, not just the men of this new nation, but all men everywhere were endowed with certain inalienable rights of their creator. They didn't say "The Creator", but their creator. You can't simply attach your beliefs or wishes and rewrite history.

Also, you need to learn what the term "evidence" actually means and what it is, and maybe more importantly what it is not. The fact that they used the term "creator" is not evidence that they meant something else, much less something else as specific as you are trying to attach to it. These were not ambiguous people who left everything they wrote open to interpretation as to the real meaning. They wrote what they meant and meant what they wrote.