cargo van pay?
- Thread starter skyraider
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Correct .....
You can ask a dozen different drivers at a dozen different companies and get a dozen different answers ... but by and large, what determines ones success or failure in any endeavor in Life is what one does (or fails to do) ..... not what someone else does. That's not to say that being leased on at a company where all they are offering is dirt cheap freight wouldn't be a hinderance .... but it's only a hinderance as long as you let it be.
Part of doing well might have to do with being informed about what is going on around one .... for instance, I'm sitting in El Paso at the moment, and I know that I'm the only vehicle here from my company. There are three other vans in the area that I know of - a cube van cube van from Prestige, and two Panther vans ..... not exactly tons of competition, when you compare it to some places, where there might be more loads .... but way, way more competition.
My guess is that, in this market and economy, you will find "cheap" freight and crappy loads at most any of the companies ...... just depends on your luck of the draw. If you go to an area where there are way more trucks than loads, expect intense competition on bid board freight, and consequently, cheap(er) freight.
Here's a hint though - sitting where there are scads of other trucks (your companies and others) might have worked really, really well when things were booming and when the truck to load ratio was different than it is now. But mebbe now, not so much .... dunno .... YMMV.
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
BWAHAHA !!!
You're kidding right OVM ? ..... ya jus' gotta be ....
There is absolutely a good reason for it - well actually, two:
1. First and foremost: Competition
2. Secondly: Owners/Drivers that are stupid enough to run for that amount.
Bzzzzt - wrong target - and here's why:
You can't blame the carrier for responding to market forces and doing what they have to do to compete - one would assume that they are not bidding loads below a level where they can be profitable - if even only marginally.
You could say (and I would) that offering loads to their leased O/O's where the O/O's are no longer profitable isn't real wise ... it definitely ain't in the longterm - because it will result in higher turnover (and the expenses attendant with that) .... and it could eventually cause your company to be known for only having "cheap freight" ....... at that point you are gonna likely have a recruitment problem.
But in the short-term, if it's a question of the company's survival - versus some of their O/O's - there is little doubt what I would do were I a company manager - some O/O's would fail and go by the wayside ... but hopefully my company would perhaps live to fight another day.
That is the rather brutal economic reality of it these days.
Yup - I'm sure you didn't.
And with your comments directly above, you hit the nail on the head - the problem isn't with the company offering, as much as it's with an O/O or driver accepting ...... that is where the responsibility ultimately lies.
FWIW, I was offered an 800+ mile load today ..... I really would liked to have the miles - but I turned it down because the rate was too low (it was well above .50 cpm tho') ..... plus I wasn't all that keen on where it was going (although in the big scheme of things where it went probably would have been fine, if not ideal) .... and I've been out in the southwest (TX, AZ, NM) for several weeks now .... where triple digit temps are a daily occurrence
(I actually think I'm starting to like it .... sick, I know )I really, really don't like turning down loads - I want to service my carrier - but I'm not a charity either.
The load got covered and another driver accepted it - at the rate I turned it down at. I took one he turned down earlier in the week - but I ran that load for significantly more than what he was originally offered to run it.
Funny thing about him taking that load today .... I spent a considerable amount of time with the guy who ultimately took that load, over the last week or so (both here and in Laredo) ...... and he talked about how people with other sources of income than expedite (I am one, but he didn't know it at the time) were screwing things up for the other folks ..... because they would accept lower rates since they didn't "need" the money .... too funny.
And then he goes and accepts this load at that rate (one that he had previously claimed was "way too cheap") ..... largely because he is desperate for the income.
I really don't want to see anyone fail, but on the otherhand I have no doubt whatsoever his exit from this business (and others like him) will enhance my and others situations with respect to load pay.
I dunno whether I would say the carriers are the problem, as much as I would say the O/O's and drivers are ...... I've met some real lu-lu's out here ... that's for sure ....
I could tell ya about another one I met out here in the last week or so (not with my carrier) ... but I'm sure you get the idea .....
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guido4475
Not a Member
Yes, that was when I was in a straight truck.Actually, just before I signed on with them, I bought a new Int'l 4900 well equipped with a 60" sleeper and 22' box for $47,000 . My, how things have changed.$2,500 a week was a crappy week back then.What I would give to have that now!!! lol.
guido4475
Not a Member
That is excactly right.And I would not put the blame on the driver 100% for the low rates, the co's shouldnt be offering them to the drivers in the first place.That is just ludicrous.I have a husband/wife team freinds that was offered a .78 cpm mile load in their $2, 440 a month payment straight truck, and when they said no to the load, the dispatcher said "well you can just sit then". Now what kind of mentality is that?This is a premium team that takes every profitable load, 110% on-time performance, professional in every way..To be treated like that just isnt right, but it seems like that is standard anymore, co's expecting o/o's to take loads that pay far below their cost per mile.the way I am hearing and seeing it, there are alot of o/o's one breakdown away from bankruptcy.So sad, but true.
There is a point where winning could be a loser....for the carrier, the O/O and the biz in general....
Somewhere out there is an individual/carrier quoted real low and the result was .50/ mile....it started somewhere....and while the economy was failing some carriers kept recruiting...they responded much too slowly to the conditions.
Personally I could outrun most...@ 2.40 a gallon and an average mpg of 24.3..my fuel costs are a slim .10 thats a dime....and with the van going to be paid off and no mortgage...I could run that low van into the ground....BUT I won't never would and never will.....It is time for the ball to be in MY court for awhile and reap the rewards...
To those who run .50 freight on a daily basis I will NOT say good luck....I want you GONE!!!
Somewhere out there is an individual/carrier quoted real low and the result was .50/ mile....it started somewhere....and while the economy was failing some carriers kept recruiting...they responded much too slowly to the conditions.
Personally I could outrun most...@ 2.40 a gallon and an average mpg of 24.3..my fuel costs are a slim .10 thats a dime....and with the van going to be paid off and no mortgage...I could run that low van into the ground....BUT I won't never would and never will.....It is time for the ball to be in MY court for awhile and reap the rewards...
To those who run .50 freight on a daily basis I will NOT say good luck....I want you GONE!!!
There was a time $2500 in a cargo van was a bad week....That is why I chose a van over a straight....
guido4475
Not a Member
There was a time $2500 in a cargo van was a bad week....That is why I chose a van over a straight....
Yes, and that is why I went from a straight to a van, just a little too late. and, yes, my van is paid for, but I have alot of personal bills that add up to quite alot per month.So it is still tough out here to make ends meet, as I am sure with alot of drivers out there.But desperation should not be an excuse to haul cheap freight.
Far as I know, the new van contracts at Panther are for 70 cents a mile. Mine is 77 cents a mile. Some people are on the Structured FSC, which right now is about 12 cents. I'm on the Variable FSC, which ranges between 8 cents and 19 lately, but averaging out at 17 cents. So the new contracts at Panther, with the Structured FSC, they're getting 82 cents a mile. Older contracts are getting a little more.
Panther does offer reduced rate loads at less than the contract rate. These are usually NLM loads, but not necessarily. I don't get offered very many reduced rate loads, but when I do they are usually at 70 cents a mile with a lower-end FSC, like 8 or 9 cents, and a few times the reduced rate was 75 cents plus FSC.
Twice I have been offered reduced rate loads for 70 plus 7 FSC for a total of 77 cents a mile. Several months ago I had one for 70 cents plus a 4 cent FSC. That's absolutely the lowest rate load I have ever been offered at Panther, 74 cents.
Most of my loads over the past few months have been in the 89-95 cents per mile range, some more, some less, but 89-95 is the norm. My reduced rate loads are about 15% of my load offers, not very many, really, but then again I do try to stay out of NLM Heaven, a.k.a., Midwest Hеll. Those who prefer to be closer to home all the time are likely getting more reduced rate loads, but I dunno.
The only 50 cent a mile loads that I know of that Panther has offered have been LTL backhaul loads when someone is crying about getting something, anything, to get them back into those coveted "freight lanes" of Midwest Hеll so they can be offered just a snotload of NLM Heaven freight.
I know a couple of dispatchers well enough that if I ask how much Panther has in the load, they'll tell me. They're not supposed to, but they know that regardless of the figure I won't freak out, and I never ask as a condition of acceptance. I do know that when Panther offers me a reduced rate load, like one paying 79 cents including FSC, my cut of the line haul ends up being closer to 85% or 90% (and sometimes more than that). Panther is taking great pains to keep us loaded at decent rates, but not many people realize that. Gone are the days where Panther has $1.60 or $2.00 per mile in the load and pays me 90 cents of it. I've had loads that paid me 85 cents and Panther only had 90 cents in the load. I just delivered one this morning where I got paid everything Panther had in the load. It was a particularly crappy run, and they knew it, but it was also a particularly good customer and they needed to get it covered and still have me not lose money, so they offered it all to me. That's an effort on their part that I do not take lightly.
This is, I'm sure, information that some folks at Panther just cringe when they read it in an open forum like this, and I'm also sure that other carriers read it with great interest and just get madder and madder at Panther, because they have to bid stuff that pays out at 50 cents a mile. Good. The more of them who get mad and continue to bid stuff so low, the quicker they'll be out of business and capacity will begin to be more in line with the freight. It's a cat eat 'em all world.
But I say all this to let those who think that Panther bids on loads and then pays out at reduced rates just to keep their profit margin up, you really don't know what you're talking about, and to the ones who think Panther offers a lot of loads at 50 cents a mile, you know even less about what you're talking about.
As much as Panther drives me crazy at times, I have to give them a lot of credit. They have really stepped up to the plate and have given me decent rates in a market where the shippers are calling the balls and strikes.
Panther does offer reduced rate loads at less than the contract rate. These are usually NLM loads, but not necessarily. I don't get offered very many reduced rate loads, but when I do they are usually at 70 cents a mile with a lower-end FSC, like 8 or 9 cents, and a few times the reduced rate was 75 cents plus FSC.
Twice I have been offered reduced rate loads for 70 plus 7 FSC for a total of 77 cents a mile. Several months ago I had one for 70 cents plus a 4 cent FSC. That's absolutely the lowest rate load I have ever been offered at Panther, 74 cents.
Most of my loads over the past few months have been in the 89-95 cents per mile range, some more, some less, but 89-95 is the norm. My reduced rate loads are about 15% of my load offers, not very many, really, but then again I do try to stay out of NLM Heaven, a.k.a., Midwest Hеll. Those who prefer to be closer to home all the time are likely getting more reduced rate loads, but I dunno.
The only 50 cent a mile loads that I know of that Panther has offered have been LTL backhaul loads when someone is crying about getting something, anything, to get them back into those coveted "freight lanes" of Midwest Hеll so they can be offered just a snotload of NLM Heaven freight.
I know a couple of dispatchers well enough that if I ask how much Panther has in the load, they'll tell me. They're not supposed to, but they know that regardless of the figure I won't freak out, and I never ask as a condition of acceptance. I do know that when Panther offers me a reduced rate load, like one paying 79 cents including FSC, my cut of the line haul ends up being closer to 85% or 90% (and sometimes more than that). Panther is taking great pains to keep us loaded at decent rates, but not many people realize that. Gone are the days where Panther has $1.60 or $2.00 per mile in the load and pays me 90 cents of it. I've had loads that paid me 85 cents and Panther only had 90 cents in the load. I just delivered one this morning where I got paid everything Panther had in the load. It was a particularly crappy run, and they knew it, but it was also a particularly good customer and they needed to get it covered and still have me not lose money, so they offered it all to me. That's an effort on their part that I do not take lightly.
This is, I'm sure, information that some folks at Panther just cringe when they read it in an open forum like this, and I'm also sure that other carriers read it with great interest and just get madder and madder at Panther, because they have to bid stuff that pays out at 50 cents a mile. Good. The more of them who get mad and continue to bid stuff so low, the quicker they'll be out of business and capacity will begin to be more in line with the freight. It's a cat eat 'em all world.
But I say all this to let those who think that Panther bids on loads and then pays out at reduced rates just to keep their profit margin up, you really don't know what you're talking about, and to the ones who think Panther offers a lot of loads at 50 cents a mile, you know even less about what you're talking about.
As much as Panther drives me crazy at times, I have to give them a lot of credit. They have really stepped up to the plate and have given me decent rates in a market where the shippers are calling the balls and strikes.
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chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
My tag line says "i know just enough about this business to get in trouble".. I started a yr ago with -O- expectations as far money to be made and miles to be run....when i go into a business i go in with a set amount that i am willing to spend out of pocket before the business has to fully support itself and then i also have enough funds in the bank to cover any expense (in the case of this business, if need be i could buy new van from that account) so all i have ever done is set myself up finanically to succeed and live when it slows down..all busiesses have slow periods...and yes i have a few other scources of income also...oh well...
So now...if i sat here and said i have never been offered a $.50 per mile load..I'd be telling you the truth...but has those that read here know i have turned down $.48 and $.41 per mile...and i was told by members here that i should have taken those offers as i was in a area (laredo) that was slow for out bound freight....but i turned them dowm, DH'd on my own to San antonio sat for less then 10 hours and had a run to chicago that paid over $.80 per mile.
We all get those low offers, agin if you read here you will know i had a load from San Antonio to San Diego 3 weeks ago...it paid well and i was looking forward to running up and down the coast for a week or so...before i got there, dispatch called with an offer....she told me the guy that had the load could get it covered for $900...then she told me we could get it for in the $850 area...then she said it went straight thru in 3 day to Wixon Mich....2239 miles...id didn't go off on her, i didn't even laugh at her..i just told her no.....now i wouldn't to go off..but it wasn't her fault...her client had a load that he needed move and could already get it done for $900, she simply wanted to know if id do it for less.....my only comment was he could get it done for less if he rented a 1 way van andd hauled it himself...
I don't turn many runs down, the ones i do are because of low pay.....but i also do not sit and wait for dispatch....once i feel i have been in one place long enougn, i am on the phone finding out where we (the company) doesn't have vans/sprinters and i am moving....to show that point..i close to Hartford Ct. i personally do not do well getting out of the NE...i will stay her till tomorrow morning (id love a load that would run over the weekend) but then i will leave here and i am thinking of DH'd to Hickory NC. There is a place there that i am hungry for their mac and cheese....but my point is, i have no issue with DH'ing anywhere i feel will benefit me as to getting freight and i know Rlent is the same way...its not strictly about waiting on dispatch, at some point you have to be pro-active and make a few decisions on how to get to your "Nut" or goals....
One more point and i need to go, but most often when i am out of service and at home , when i go back in service, i don't stay in Toledo, Toledo is not the greatest place for runs now a days....lot goin in, but not alot goin out....I normally DH to the Chicago area, for me thats close to 250 miles... but i have yet to sit over night before i am dispatched and sometimes i am dispatched before i get there.....
Its not always about what the company will offer you..but what you are willing to do to make a buck also.....
And just because i have the means to fully support my business without it making a dime, doesn't mean that i will run for nothing, this is a business and it has to pay for itselfs, just like yours.....
PS: this is not about bragging either, i have my share of short weeks, its about looking at what will make you make the decisions to be pro active and do what you have to do to make money in this or any other business....
So now...if i sat here and said i have never been offered a $.50 per mile load..I'd be telling you the truth...but has those that read here know i have turned down $.48 and $.41 per mile...and i was told by members here that i should have taken those offers as i was in a area (laredo) that was slow for out bound freight....but i turned them dowm, DH'd on my own to San antonio sat for less then 10 hours and had a run to chicago that paid over $.80 per mile.
We all get those low offers, agin if you read here you will know i had a load from San Antonio to San Diego 3 weeks ago...it paid well and i was looking forward to running up and down the coast for a week or so...before i got there, dispatch called with an offer....she told me the guy that had the load could get it covered for $900...then she told me we could get it for in the $850 area...then she said it went straight thru in 3 day to Wixon Mich....2239 miles...id didn't go off on her, i didn't even laugh at her..i just told her no.....now i wouldn't to go off..but it wasn't her fault...her client had a load that he needed move and could already get it done for $900, she simply wanted to know if id do it for less.....my only comment was he could get it done for less if he rented a 1 way van andd hauled it himself...
I don't turn many runs down, the ones i do are because of low pay.....but i also do not sit and wait for dispatch....once i feel i have been in one place long enougn, i am on the phone finding out where we (the company) doesn't have vans/sprinters and i am moving....to show that point..i close to Hartford Ct. i personally do not do well getting out of the NE...i will stay her till tomorrow morning (id love a load that would run over the weekend) but then i will leave here and i am thinking of DH'd to Hickory NC. There is a place there that i am hungry for their mac and cheese....but my point is, i have no issue with DH'ing anywhere i feel will benefit me as to getting freight and i know Rlent is the same way...its not strictly about waiting on dispatch, at some point you have to be pro-active and make a few decisions on how to get to your "Nut" or goals....
One more point and i need to go, but most often when i am out of service and at home , when i go back in service, i don't stay in Toledo, Toledo is not the greatest place for runs now a days....lot goin in, but not alot goin out....I normally DH to the Chicago area, for me thats close to 250 miles... but i have yet to sit over night before i am dispatched and sometimes i am dispatched before i get there.....
Its not always about what the company will offer you..but what you are willing to do to make a buck also.....
And just because i have the means to fully support my business without it making a dime, doesn't mean that i will run for nothing, this is a business and it has to pay for itselfs, just like yours.....
PS: this is not about bragging either, i have my share of short weeks, its about looking at what will make you make the decisions to be pro active and do what you have to do to make money in this or any other business....
and that desperation is part of the problem in our rates...it is all inclusive..truly a catch-22 for some...while they know it is wrong...momma and kids need food on the table....
"One good paying load and I make it for this week..."
I can feel for some with children..I went thru the early 80's with 3 small kids...wasn't easy...I picked fruit for 30-40 bucks CASH a day..dawn to dusk to put food on the table...
I honestly can admit If I were in that situation to-day that I wouldn't be typing from my pulpit standing on the high moral ground preaching to the choir...
"One good paying load and I make it for this week..."
I can feel for some with children..I went thru the early 80's with 3 small kids...wasn't easy...I picked fruit for 30-40 bucks CASH a day..dawn to dusk to put food on the table...
I honestly can admit If I were in that situation to-day that I wouldn't be typing from my pulpit standing on the high moral ground preaching to the choir...
There ya have it some good stories...3 carriers represented....
other pros missing ...Moot, Rlent, Steady Eddie...all van/sprinter owners, all scratching out a living and doing it...years of experience....I've met with all but the guy in that "HAT"..*lol*
What makes us different than those who failed? Luck? Oh wait that doesn't exist...so we must be that darned good!
other pros missing ...Moot, Rlent, Steady Eddie...all van/sprinter owners, all scratching out a living and doing it...years of experience....I've met with all but the guy in that "HAT"..*lol*
What makes us different than those who failed? Luck? Oh wait that doesn't exist...so we must be that darned good!
Sooner or later, Service will out preform low rates. You keep a good level of service, customers will pay for it.
A compnany that pushes service over rates will, in the long run, stand out amoung the rest.
A compnany that pushes service over rates will, in the long run, stand out amoung the rest.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
I'm not sure that I see it exactly the same way .... service is certainly important - no doubt about it - without good service you are dead ...... but price is important as well - particularly in these times, in this economic climate.
I think it's always a question of value .... which is the combination of quality (service) and price - IOW, what are you getting for what you are paying ?
I think it's always a question of value .... which is the combination of quality (service) and price - IOW, what are you getting for what you are paying ?
It goes back to service, (you get what you pay for), who's more likely to be on time and take care of the customers need? Driver getting .50 per mile or driver getting 1.00 per mile?
No matter what my rate is now, I treat the low tier just as important as the higher tier rate. I don't know if I could say that at .50 per mile though. Even if I was struck in a bad area. Cutting your cost to off set the low rates will effect service.
arkjarhead
Veteran Expediter
I think I'm about to move down from tractor trailer to van just so I can say I've drove all three.
Its the kind of mentality that gets people to run 78cpm loads. After they set long enough they will run these loads just to make some money. Its that "exclusive use" part of the contract and the companies will use it to there advantage every time.
When I use to work up an account analysis on a new customer, and after loading in all the cost, revenue for profit, and it showed a lost, we would increase the revenue. This would put us, sometimes, out of range of obtaining the contract. However, why should we do this account if we would not be making any operating income on it? So, we focused on service to the customer, showing them what they will be getting for their money. At first we were beat out by low-ball bids. Sometimes, after only 6 months of not getting the account, the customer would contact us, wanting our service. This was due because the bidder could not fulfill their contract oblagation to the customer. They cut too many cost to off set the low revenue, and this effected their service requirements. On the other hand, if we could do the account without loading up on labor, due to cross utilizing current labor, we came out all the better.
The low-ball bidder cannot fulfill service requirements for long. No, no .50 per mile for me.
The low-ball bidder cannot fulfill service requirements for long. No, no .50 per mile for me.
