Sorry to have brought it up then. Is there anything else that they have covered that you object to being asked or mentioned?
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What happening with Panther???
- Thread starter Zoli
- Start date
Oh i dont know about that. If he vents enough he may get a call from some clown at panther informing him he no longer is employed by panther. Its happened before.
dancorn, you need to understand that panther considers you an employee and will treat you as one. Once you accept this you can come up with some lame reasons why this swap is good for you instead of dwelling on the fact that panther just screwed you out of 800 miles for no good reason.
So it looks like if someone is offered a 1200 mile run they should ask where the swap will be made . Anything under 500 miles should be refused . Two drivers can't simultaneously arrive at a swap point . Some waiting is going to be involved . Why involve 3 drivers in this run ?
chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
ovm wrote:
Wait, you mean they are i violation of the rules their insurance company sets forth in their policy???? I think it is more a CYA company policy and has nothing to do with the insurance carrier....
Wait, you mean they are i violation of the rules their insurance company sets forth in their policy???? I think it is more a CYA company policy and has nothing to do with the insurance carrier....
60MPH
Expert Expediter
I said what you said...it is not an insurance policy thingee, just a company policy CYA that seems to be "flexible"
As Zoli pointed out...US to Canada..1200 miles no swap...
Zoli....was there extra time built into the run? Was there the 5 hr safety break?
Don't be sorry and no where did I object..just putting facts out there so you have some more info that maybe you weren't aware of....ask away my fellow van driver...
Since I don't drive or own a van, this would be my observation with absolutely no facts. I do believe it is a insurance and or liability issue that drives this.
Why? Because in most cases, they are paying a third party to do the swap.
I don't see a reason that Panther or another carrier would intentionally pay to "spread the wealth".
With that said, it would seem like they do it IF other units are available. If not, they don't.
But, they are minimizing their risks.
I think they could tell drivers in advance where it will swap, but there could be instances that time constraints to pickup could be a factor?
Again, we don't really swap anything per se unless it is a breakdown/recovery effort.
Just my penny in the pond.
Why? Because in most cases, they are paying a third party to do the swap.
I don't see a reason that Panther or another carrier would intentionally pay to "spread the wealth".
With that said, it would seem like they do it IF other units are available. If not, they don't.
But, they are minimizing their risks.
I think they could tell drivers in advance where it will swap, but there could be instances that time constraints to pickup could be a factor?
Again, we don't really swap anything per se unless it is a breakdown/recovery effort.
Just my penny in the pond.
Yes Dave it is a logistics thing...
IF there is another unit that they don't have to pay DH
If the load can be swapped without a lift truck...as in slid from one to another.
If there is enough money in the run to pay for xdock service which is usually 50-75 bucks.
And of course IF all this can be done in the time alloted to the run...
And some dispatchers know what drivers can do the long stints and have a proven record....
There is a lot of dispatcher discretion involved and it won't be the same with everyone of them...
hence it seems "flexible"
Wow is there a lot of guesswork and misinformation at work here. This one probably should have been posted into the Panther forum. hehe
Without the facts at hand, Dave is the closest. It's a liability issue.
Panther has a 16 hour rule for cargo vans. Safety and others will tell you that it's all about the safety of the drivers. It's not. It's all about CYA for Panther in case the cargo van driver gets into an accident and kills someone. It's a wise and prudent rule. There have already been cases where someone has driven more than 16 hours, got into an accident and killed someone, and Panther (the one with the deep pockets) has been sued. I do not know the outcome or status of any of the cases, however. But it's a valid position to take based on common sense liability. As a consequence, a side effect, it's also about driver safety.
The problem comes when the rule is applied with no common sense. If you move a couple of miles to a restaurant, your clock starts, even though you're really doing nothing, and you must remain motionless for 5 hours to restart the clock. Philosophically, I have a problem with Panther regulating my personal time in an unregulated vehicle, even though I fully understand the reasoning behind it. If there is a lawsuit, they need something in black and white (the satellite positions) to prove they didn't force the driver to drive beyond a reasonable time frame. That same black and white data will be used against them, as well. So they're gonna stick with the satellite positions to cover the liability.
I also have a problem with the mechanisms in place to implement the rule. A load is booked and offered to the driver. Once the load is accepted, Safety then makes a determination as to when a 5 hour break will be required, based on when your clock started. All loads over 500 miles are flagged for Safety to review. Then, someone in Dispatch will make the determination as to whether or not you can take your 5 hour break and still deliver the load on time. The problem comes in how that determination is made - they use the 47 MPH rule. If, at 47 MPH you do not have enough time in the load to take a 5 hour break and still deliver it on time, the load will swap. Once that decision has been made, it is only then that the load information is sent to the Swap Desk so that a time and location can be set up for the swap.
Why so many other carriers are able to make the determination or swaps before the load is even offered, and Panther cannot, I have no idea, other than the mechanism in place is just poorly implemented. There are certainly cases where time doesn't permit the figuring out of when and where for a swap, but rather than being honest and up front about it, they give you a load offer, and then after it's been accepted, after you've been contracted to run it, they come along and unilaterally change the conditions of the load contract, stating "customer needs" (part of that meaningless disclaimer that they give you after you've accepted the load) in that you don't have the time to take a break and deliver it on time. The problem is, many times that determination is just flat out wrong, and you can, absolutely, make the delivery on time and still get your 5 hour break. The fact that 90% of the miles are on a 70 MPH Interstate and time-of-day routing takes you through congested areas at off-peak times is meaningless to these people, because intelligence and common sense have been systematically boiled from their brains.
The other problem is, it puts them in the position of being able to tell an independent contractor where to go and when to be there (for the swap), and you can't do that, "customer needs" notwithstanding.
It's not a logistics thing very often. If the load needs to be swapped, they'll swap it, regardless of whether there is enough money in the load to pay for a crossdock. The $50 or $75 is nothing compared to the risk of a bazillion dollar lawsuit. There are times when there is no place to easily swap it out, or no driver to swap it to, and they'll let you go ahead and take it the whole way, but when they do that, that's when they take a closer look at things, because they have to, use a little common sense and intelligence, and use the less restrictive 55 MPH (for cargo vans) to see if you can make up enough time to get a break in there, look at the routing. Safety may still come along and mandate a 5 hour break, but when that happens, even if you're late, it's not a service failure if you're late, provided your satellite positions show that you weren't wasting time.
But the bottom line is, Panther has a 16 hour policy rule in effect for cargo vans. Instead of trying to get them to change a policy they ain't gonna change, you'd better learn to make the policy work for you. Know up front what the policy is, and when your clock starts. That will enable you to take a look at a load and determine whether it is likely to swap or not, and in many cases where it might swap. For example, if you're offered a 1000 mile load from Orlando to Houston, and there's not already a 5 hour break built into the load, it's gonna swap, and it's probably gonna swap in Mobile or Biloxi. If you don't want to take a load to Mobile or Biloxi, refuse the load. Especially refuse it if you don't have the hours to even run it to the half-way swap point, otherwise it'll swap ASAP based on the availability of a crossdock, which might be after 200 miles on a 900 mile run, because there's nowhere to swap it around the 400-500 mark.
My deal with them is, my safety is much more important to me than their capital "s" Safety Department. If I can't run a load safely and on time, I don't want anything to do with it, and I'll turn it down. It's funny that every time I do that, they believe me. But, if I get a load offer and I know that I can run it safely, legally and on time, and still get my required break in there with at least two hours to spare (time for fuel, traffic, construction, flat tire, whatever, I want that two hour window on the backend), and I accept the load, I expect my word and my record to stand on its own. Nothing chaps my aѕѕ more than some goober in the office coming along and telling me that I can't do precisely what I just got through determining that I can do, simply because he's trying to employ an inflexible rule with no intelligence or common sense. If I tell them I can't take the load, they believe me, but if I tell them I can, they refuse to believe me, even though I have never given them a reason to doubt my word. Part of that is because a lot van drivers are just butt stoopid morons and will, in fact, lie like crazy. They'll tell them they can make the delivery, and then don't, so I can at least understand why Panther has to run things to the lowest common denominator.
But just like the Acceptance Rate and how it's figured, the thing with swaps and all the other policies, the first thing you need to do is become intimate with the policies and how they work, see the policies from Panther's side of things, and then figure out not only how to work within them, but to use them to your advantage. Whining and complaining will get you nowhere. Well, it'll get you to places like Biloxi and Meridian and Wytheville, and the ever popular Effingham, but that's about it.
Without the facts at hand, Dave is the closest. It's a liability issue.
Panther has a 16 hour rule for cargo vans. Safety and others will tell you that it's all about the safety of the drivers. It's not. It's all about CYA for Panther in case the cargo van driver gets into an accident and kills someone. It's a wise and prudent rule. There have already been cases where someone has driven more than 16 hours, got into an accident and killed someone, and Panther (the one with the deep pockets) has been sued. I do not know the outcome or status of any of the cases, however. But it's a valid position to take based on common sense liability. As a consequence, a side effect, it's also about driver safety.
The problem comes when the rule is applied with no common sense. If you move a couple of miles to a restaurant, your clock starts, even though you're really doing nothing, and you must remain motionless for 5 hours to restart the clock. Philosophically, I have a problem with Panther regulating my personal time in an unregulated vehicle, even though I fully understand the reasoning behind it. If there is a lawsuit, they need something in black and white (the satellite positions) to prove they didn't force the driver to drive beyond a reasonable time frame. That same black and white data will be used against them, as well. So they're gonna stick with the satellite positions to cover the liability.
I also have a problem with the mechanisms in place to implement the rule. A load is booked and offered to the driver. Once the load is accepted, Safety then makes a determination as to when a 5 hour break will be required, based on when your clock started. All loads over 500 miles are flagged for Safety to review. Then, someone in Dispatch will make the determination as to whether or not you can take your 5 hour break and still deliver the load on time. The problem comes in how that determination is made - they use the 47 MPH rule. If, at 47 MPH you do not have enough time in the load to take a 5 hour break and still deliver it on time, the load will swap. Once that decision has been made, it is only then that the load information is sent to the Swap Desk so that a time and location can be set up for the swap.
Why so many other carriers are able to make the determination or swaps before the load is even offered, and Panther cannot, I have no idea, other than the mechanism in place is just poorly implemented. There are certainly cases where time doesn't permit the figuring out of when and where for a swap, but rather than being honest and up front about it, they give you a load offer, and then after it's been accepted, after you've been contracted to run it, they come along and unilaterally change the conditions of the load contract, stating "customer needs" (part of that meaningless disclaimer that they give you after you've accepted the load) in that you don't have the time to take a break and deliver it on time. The problem is, many times that determination is just flat out wrong, and you can, absolutely, make the delivery on time and still get your 5 hour break. The fact that 90% of the miles are on a 70 MPH Interstate and time-of-day routing takes you through congested areas at off-peak times is meaningless to these people, because intelligence and common sense have been systematically boiled from their brains.
The other problem is, it puts them in the position of being able to tell an independent contractor where to go and when to be there (for the swap), and you can't do that, "customer needs" notwithstanding.
It's not a logistics thing very often. If the load needs to be swapped, they'll swap it, regardless of whether there is enough money in the load to pay for a crossdock. The $50 or $75 is nothing compared to the risk of a bazillion dollar lawsuit. There are times when there is no place to easily swap it out, or no driver to swap it to, and they'll let you go ahead and take it the whole way, but when they do that, that's when they take a closer look at things, because they have to, use a little common sense and intelligence, and use the less restrictive 55 MPH (for cargo vans) to see if you can make up enough time to get a break in there, look at the routing. Safety may still come along and mandate a 5 hour break, but when that happens, even if you're late, it's not a service failure if you're late, provided your satellite positions show that you weren't wasting time.
But the bottom line is, Panther has a 16 hour policy rule in effect for cargo vans. Instead of trying to get them to change a policy they ain't gonna change, you'd better learn to make the policy work for you. Know up front what the policy is, and when your clock starts. That will enable you to take a look at a load and determine whether it is likely to swap or not, and in many cases where it might swap. For example, if you're offered a 1000 mile load from Orlando to Houston, and there's not already a 5 hour break built into the load, it's gonna swap, and it's probably gonna swap in Mobile or Biloxi. If you don't want to take a load to Mobile or Biloxi, refuse the load. Especially refuse it if you don't have the hours to even run it to the half-way swap point, otherwise it'll swap ASAP based on the availability of a crossdock, which might be after 200 miles on a 900 mile run, because there's nowhere to swap it around the 400-500 mark.
My deal with them is, my safety is much more important to me than their capital "s" Safety Department. If I can't run a load safely and on time, I don't want anything to do with it, and I'll turn it down. It's funny that every time I do that, they believe me. But, if I get a load offer and I know that I can run it safely, legally and on time, and still get my required break in there with at least two hours to spare (time for fuel, traffic, construction, flat tire, whatever, I want that two hour window on the backend), and I accept the load, I expect my word and my record to stand on its own. Nothing chaps my aѕѕ more than some goober in the office coming along and telling me that I can't do precisely what I just got through determining that I can do, simply because he's trying to employ an inflexible rule with no intelligence or common sense. If I tell them I can't take the load, they believe me, but if I tell them I can, they refuse to believe me, even though I have never given them a reason to doubt my word. Part of that is because a lot van drivers are just butt stoopid morons and will, in fact, lie like crazy. They'll tell them they can make the delivery, and then don't, so I can at least understand why Panther has to run things to the lowest common denominator.
But just like the Acceptance Rate and how it's figured, the thing with swaps and all the other policies, the first thing you need to do is become intimate with the policies and how they work, see the policies from Panther's side of things, and then figure out not only how to work within them, but to use them to your advantage. Whining and complaining will get you nowhere. Well, it'll get you to places like Biloxi and Meridian and Wytheville, and the ever popular Effingham, but that's about it.
bludragon13
Seasoned Expediter
Dave,
I agree with you ,now my penny in the pond. Have had 4 swap offers from Romuls to Canada in last 6wks,all were from south Texas and wanted us to carry the last 150mi or less, all the bs but no miles, the answer is always no. If you want the first 1500 mi you should be willing to do the last 150, course there is always some one willing to do that last 150 or less, thats why those willing to go to Canada are always near the border and those not willing to go to Canada are picking up in Texas and running long miles. How do I know-check the web site when you get the offer .Just my opinon .
I agree with you ,now my penny in the pond. Have had 4 swap offers from Romuls to Canada in last 6wks,all were from south Texas and wanted us to carry the last 150mi or less, all the bs but no miles, the answer is always no. If you want the first 1500 mi you should be willing to do the last 150, course there is always some one willing to do that last 150 or less, thats why those willing to go to Canada are always near the border and those not willing to go to Canada are picking up in Texas and running long miles. How do I know-check the web site when you get the offer .Just my opinon .
To turn down a load on the second half of a swap because someone else got more miles out of it than you is just silly. Either what you were offered is profitable, or it's not. How many miles the first leg driver got is quite irrelevant, since it has zero impact on your revenue. I've been in Detroit and received many load offers that were the second half of swaps going into Canada. I almost always turn those down simply because they are usually not profitable. If they were, I'd take them, and couldn't care less how many miles the other driver got. After all, I wasn't sitting where he was when he got the load, so why should I care? It's not like they dispatched around me to give him more miles so I could get less.
There are a lot of people who aren't allowed to go to Canada but are allowed to go to Texas. Should they not be allowed to pick up loads in Texas just because the consignee is in Canada? Dispatch would much rather swap out a load going into Canada way, way, way before it gets to Romulus. They have a much harder time swapping out loads in Romulus, simply because there are so few miles from that point on that it's usually not profitable for whoever takes it the rest of the way, and most people turn 'em down. If there is no one along route who can take the load and can also go to Canada, they have little choice but to swap it out at the border. That's why they now have drivers who do nothing but take loads at the border on into Canada.
For me to take the second half of a swap into Canada, the swap will usually have to be outside of Michigan or Ohio. Generally, Chicago, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Syracuse... anything closer and there's not enough loaded miles to be worth it. I want about 250 under my belt before I arrive at the border. How many miles the first leg got, I don't care. Could be 200, could be 2000, all I care about is what it takes to get me into Canada.
But I hear that all the time, where "the other driver drove the meat and potatoes out of the load, and I get the scraps!" Well, you shoulda been sitting where the other driver was then. If you don't want scraps, don't sit next to the scrap barrel. Duh.
There are a lot of people who aren't allowed to go to Canada but are allowed to go to Texas. Should they not be allowed to pick up loads in Texas just because the consignee is in Canada? Dispatch would much rather swap out a load going into Canada way, way, way before it gets to Romulus. They have a much harder time swapping out loads in Romulus, simply because there are so few miles from that point on that it's usually not profitable for whoever takes it the rest of the way, and most people turn 'em down. If there is no one along route who can take the load and can also go to Canada, they have little choice but to swap it out at the border. That's why they now have drivers who do nothing but take loads at the border on into Canada.
For me to take the second half of a swap into Canada, the swap will usually have to be outside of Michigan or Ohio. Generally, Chicago, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Syracuse... anything closer and there's not enough loaded miles to be worth it. I want about 250 under my belt before I arrive at the border. How many miles the first leg got, I don't care. Could be 200, could be 2000, all I care about is what it takes to get me into Canada.
But I hear that all the time, where "the other driver drove the meat and potatoes out of the load, and I get the scraps!" Well, you shoulda been sitting where the other driver was then. If you don't want scraps, don't sit next to the scrap barrel. Duh.
arkjarhead
Veteran Expediter
The one time I got really mad when at Panther was over a swap. They sent me a load offer while I was in Kansas City and the load was picking 150 miles to the east going to Denver I think. I know I figured it up and I had the time to do it legally. So I accepted it. I dh to the pick up, leave and head west. As soon as I leave the shipper the qc goes off. I look at it and dispatch is wanting me to swap with a team in Kansas City. I called dispatch and asked them why the team in kansas city couldn't have picked it up in the first place? They told me I was first out and the team was second out that's why they didn't get it first. I told them if they did me that way again I would take the load back to the shipper.
I think another thing that helps drive this policy is the gotcha clause in the regs. After all the rules on HOS don't they then add that the company has to have a policy that ensures ALL their vehicles operate in a safe manner? --eb
You can't? Panther seems to be doing a good job of it. Maybe it's cause your not really a independent contractor after all, closer to a cross between a dependent contractor and a employee. I guess it doesn't matter what Panther calls you or what you think you are, as long as you follow Panther's orders everything will be fine.
To those who let them get away with it, I suppose. Rest assured, I do OK.
That's a little oversimplistic. That's like saying as long as you do what the customer asks, you're not an independent contractor.
The only orders that Panther can give are those that come from the Safety Department and those which you have already agreed to by contract. Everything else is negotiable. Everything.
Dreammaker
Seasoned Expediter
That's the best advice in this whole chain. Moot, you and Turtle, have this one cornered.