The Trump Card...

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
As the federal debt balloons, the government necessarily has fewer dollars available for discretionary spending, or even mandated expenditures, because an ever-increasing amount of federal revenue must be directed to make interest payments on the debt. But our public policymakers are so smart that they just keep raising the national debt limit, then borrow money overseas or sell more government backed securities or run the currency printing machines day and night to pump fairy-tale dollars which are loaned out to large US banks at near zero percent. Voodoo economics has arrived.

Spend some time reading through analysis of the impending financial collapse of Greece to see our future. Whistling past the graveyard, we are.
Obviously, what so many people don't understand is the economic and demographic factors we face today are different from those of the past several decades. Add to that the socialist "fundamental transformation" that's been imposed on our country and our society by the Obama administration and we have a situation that violates a basic principle of economics: you can't remain financially solvent when your spending exceeds your income (current or projected). The number of working Americans compared to those receiving entitlement benefits is shrinking; thus, fewer taxpayers will be paying the ever-increasing bills compiled by the retiring baby boomers and the hoards of welfare parasites and immigrants that will be legalized by politicians handing out goodies for votes. Conclusion: our declining number of working children and grandchildren will be disproportionally paying for these drastically increasing debts created by an exploding number of entitlements and their recipients. This phenomenon isn't a spurious argument - it an undeniable fact that's happening right now.
In 1970, there were 22.2 Americans age 65 and over for every 100 working-age adults ages 25 to 64, Myers says. By 2010, that had gone up to 24.6 and based on Census projections, the ratio will rise above 40 by 2030.
These declines are troublesome on a number of fronts. First, a declining birth rate poses all sorts of problems for what’s left of our social safety net. In 20 years, every last one of 78 million boomers will have reached full retirement age just as today’s historically low number of newborns is entering the workforce. Without big changes Social Security, which is a pay-as-you-go system, will be overwhelmed. Public and private pension systems, which are severely underfunded, may find it difficult to keep their promises as well. This is not new news. But the recent steep drop-off in birth rates compounds the problem

Birth Rate Plunges During Recession | TIME.com
Our politicians need to be forced to reduce spending and live within OUR means. Good luck with that.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
A reduction in spending should be part of a prudent fiscal plan - but it's the whole plan, according to the current Republican strategy. They have very little to say about the other side of the coin: increasing income. When they do, it's generally something vague about 'closing loopholes'.
And what they propose for spending cuts is the same thing they've proposed forever: take more from those who can least afford it. Ignore Wall Street, go after the people on food stamps. :rolleyes:
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Trump unveiled details for his tax plan recently. Eliminates the death tax/estate tax. Lowers rates pretty much for all income levels. Lowers corporate tax. Allows money held overseas to be repatriated at low penalty. Broad based tax cuts generally act as a stimulus to the national economy. JFK cut taxes and receipts went up. Same with Reagan's tax cuts. Periods of tremendous economic growth followed. Easing the tax burden across the board is long overdue.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I like parts of it, and other parts are a concern. Specifically, the no federal taxes for 50k and under for two married people. A aging population would be a concern with that ratio. I would prefer everyone pay something verses a 50/50 split where one side is footing the bill for the other side. I think it is better with everyone having a vested interest.
Also would eliminate the earned income tax credit. Lower rates for everyone. The EITC is giving thousands to illegals that shouldn't be getting subsidized by taxpayers.
Tax Credits for Illegal Immigrants
 
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Mdbtyhtr

Expert Expediter
Simple solution, 10% flat tax across the board . If the government can't run itself on that amount of money, then they will have to reconsider their imposed hindrances to business growth and modify them.
 

iceroadtrucker

Veteran Expediter
Driver
It would be really nice if along with that our PD went up per day maybe enough to by a Happy Meal that would be cool.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Note the author, a chip off the old block Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr who was a member of the Kennedy inner circle and noted Northeastern liberal.
Robert Schlesinger is managing editor for opinion at U.S. News and World Report, a liberal blogger on the site's Thomas Jefferson Street blog[1] and the Huffington Post, and writes a biweekly column for U.S. News. He is the youngest son of the late historian Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. and the youngest brother of Stephen Schlesinger. His first book, published in April, 2008, on the history of presidential speech writers, is called White House Ghosts: Presidents and Their Speechwriters.[2] He taught political reporting at Boston University's Washington Journalism Center.

Robert Schlesinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
Note the author, a chip off the old block Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr who was a member of the Kennedy inner circle and noted Northeastern liberal.
You post that as if that's supposed to mean, in fine logically fallacious fashion, that what he says should be dismissed out of hand. But the reality (and the irony) is the note of remark you felt to point out actually gives him far more credibility on the context and accuracy of what happened, and why, than all of those who perpetuate the myth.
 
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Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You post that as if that's supposed to mean, in fine logically fallacious fashion, that what he says should be dismissed out of hand. But the reality (and the irony) is the note of remark you felt to point out actually gives him far more credibility on the context and accuracy of what happened, and why, than all of those who perpetuate the myth.
One can read my post, its accompanying link and draw their own conclusions. However, your response and its implicit misrepresentation is itself a logical fallacy, even hypocrisy - especially considering recent condemnations of certain websites and pundits for their biases and agendas in their written opinions. Schlesinger's article is not without spin that favors the Kennedy legacy.The fact that his father was a member of Kennedy's inner circle certainly makes him an expert on the Kennedy administration, but by no means an objective observer.
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
One can read my post, its accompanying link and draw their own conclusions. However, your response and its implicit misrepresentation is itself a logical fallacy, even hypocrisy - especially considering recent condemnations of certain websites and pundits for their biases and agendas in their written opinions. Schlesinger's article is not without spin that favors the Kennedy legacy.The fact that his father was a member of Kennedy's inner circle certainly makes him an expert on the Kennedy administration, but by no means an objective observer.

I'm not surprised that you fail to appreciate the difference between a person who is biased, but also extremely knowledgeable on a particular subject, and "certain websites and pundits" that are biased without the attending knowledge on the subject. Any subject.
 
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cheri1122

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Simple solution, 10% flat tax across the board . If the government can't run itself on that amount of money, then they will have to reconsider their imposed hindrances to business growth and modify them.

A 10% tax across the board may be simple, but it would also be extremely unfair. It would literally take bread from the mouths of the poor, while the wealthy would be singing 'hallelujah!'
Did you know that a very large number of Americans are now paying 50% of their income for rent/mortgage? [Experts advise no more than 30%] Affordable housing hardly exists in this country. In spite of a tremendous need, the only affordable housing built for decades has been required by government [often state or city] in return for something the developer wants. So they build the absolute minimum required, which isn't a drop in the bucket of need, and focus on upscale, which is where the profit is.
With a flat 10% tax bill, wealthy developers and private equity can build even more upscale gated communities and high end commercial properties, and won't that be nice?
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
One can read my post, its accompanying link and draw their own conclusions.
Since you offered no reason as to why you thought the information about the author, or his father, was particularly noteworthy, you left your readers with no choice but to do just that, which I did. .Rather than jump to conclusions, we instead can use your post, the link you provided, Ragman's linked article, and your historical positions and reactions to the information relevant to the above.

We know you tend to be somewhat defensive when encountering criticism (real or imagined) of conservatives, and like many conservatives view criticisms from the right towards the left as proper, correct and justified, while at the same time rejecting criticisms of the right from any position as being totally unfounded. And you tend to lash out at the criticism in an attempt to discredit it, but unfortunately most often employing arguably the most common logical fallacy in existence on the Internet, the "argumentum ad hominem" logical fallacy, which is arguing against the person making the statement, rather than the statement itself. This usually manifests itself, as you normally do, as dismissing information from any source, be it a politician, TV network, radio station, Web site, or otherwise, almost always pointing to a particular bias from the source, and then therefore claiming that it cannot be trusted. The problem with that, of course is, bias doesn't trump facts. If a biased individual makes a factually correct statement, his or her bias does not somehow, as of by magic, make the statement factually incorrect.

The only other things we have to go on is the use of the phrases "a chip off the old block" and "noted Northeastern liberals." The phrase "a chip off the old block," of course means similar in character from where and whence it came, usually applied to a male to indicate a similarity to his father. It can be used both for high praise, or more often, for biting criticism. Knowing that you generally go not hold liberals in particular high esteem, especially those who criticize conservatives, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude you use the phrase to mean biting criticism rather than high praise. The phrase "Northeastern liberal" is a generally regarded euphemism for "even more out of touch with reality than a pedestrian liberal," and your addition of "noted" would seem to indicate you view him as a Northeastern liberal of particular note, even more even more out of touch with reality. So, it would appear that you used both phrases pejoratively.

Te conclusions I reached, based on all of the above, is you made a post to point out the liberalness of the author, rather than comment about what the author said, and even went so far as to try and taint the author by closely associating him with his father, in what seemed to be one of your classic "argumentum ad hominem" logical fallacies, in an attempt to discredit the article posted by Ragman. And oddly enough, by pointing out the pedigree of the author, rather than simply addressing the article itself, you gave the article even more credibility than it would have otherwise received, and further elevated here by referring to him as an expert.

However, your response and its implicit misrepresentation is itself a logical fallacy,
For one, it's not a logical fallacy, as my conclusions were drawn from the above, none of which is a logical fallacy. It doesn't surprise me at all that you fail to see the logical fallacies when you use them, but can somehow find them where they don't even exist in others' arguments. Second, my response was, in total, my own conclusions. Trust me, I in no way implicitly misrepresented my own conclusions. to assert that I misrepresented my own conclusions is, not to put too fine a point on it, pointedly butt-stoopid. If you're going to try and back peddle and claim what you meant to say was that my conclusions presented somehow an "implicit misrepresentation" of your position, I'd advise against it since you're going to be on the same butt-stoopid point since you never explicitly presented any position at all which could then be misrepresented by anyone.

even hypocrisy - especially considering recent condemnations of certain websites and pundits for their biases and agendas in their written opinions.
I'm truly at a loss as to why you would make such an ignorant, and wrong, accusation. All of the possibilities have you coming off not looking very good, I'm afraid. Did you just make it up because you're mean? Frankly, that's the one that makes you look the best. Do you seriously have such a high level of reading comprehension and obtuseness that you can't understand what I write? Or perhaps you are so steeped in your own conservative bias that anyone who doesn't share the same bias is therefore liberal, and whatever they say you view as a criticism of a conservative, even when it's not there? I have never, ever condemned certain websites (whatever that means) or pundits for their biases and agendas in their written opinions. Not once. I highly value the opinions and biases of those with which I do not agree. It's the only way to learn what the other opinions are, and enables me to at least try and look at differing opinions from another point of view. There are sometimes certain parts of an agenda that I may condemn, if it's a destructive agenda (such as many parts of the Gay Rights Agenda, parts of the anti-abortion agenda, parts of the pro-abortion agenda, the "rob from the rich and give to the poor" liberal agenda, and the "I have a deep-seeded need to tell you what to do, how to live and what to think" conservative agenda, etc.). I have certainly disagreed with many websites and pundits, but that's hardly any kind of condemnation of their presenting their bias or agendas.

I will certainly condemn a website or a pundit if they use their bias or agenda in such a way as to present their opinions or agenda as factual rather than opinion or philosophy, and I will unmercifully condemn them if they use their bias or agenda to intentionally mislead, misinform, misrepresent, or in some cases, fabricate the truth, because doing so is beneath contempt and should be condemned by any intelligent thinking human being. And while I won't make statements of condemnation, I will, absolutely, ridicule the pee out of someone who believes that biased, agenda driven lies are actually unbiased factual news if they try and use it to support their own arguments.

Schlesinger's article is not without spin that favors the Kennedy legacy.
Yeah, so? Bias doesn't trump facts. It never has, and it never will. Just because someone is biased doesn't in and of itself mean that what they said should be dismissed. If that were true, then you'd have to dismiss as untrue every stated fact by Fox News, CNN and every other news organization on the planet because they are biased. That's patently absurd.

The fact that his father was a member of Kennedy's inner circle certainly makes him an expert on the Kennedy administration, but by no means an objective observer.
He didn't present himself as an objective observer. The article linked by Ragman is not an objective news article, it's in the OPINION section of the US News ad World Report. You seem to want to dismiss it out of hand, or at the very least mitigate (lessen the gravity of, which is ironic since you've made him an expert on the matter) and diminish (to make less impressive and less valuable, which is again, ironic for the same reason) the article solely because it isn't an objective opinion, and do so not based on what was written, but rather based on the person who wrote it, which is a stellar example of a logical fallacy (not to mention a massive failure in critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment).
 
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Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Since you offered no reason as to why you thought the information about the author, or his father, was particularly noteworthy, you left your readers with no choice but to do just that, which I did. .Rather than jump to conclusions, we instead can use your post, the link you provided, Ragman's linked article, and your historical positions and reactions to the information relevant to the above.

We know you tend to be somewhat defensive when encountering criticism (real or imagined) of conservatives, and like many conservatives view criticisms from the right towards the left as proper, correct and justified, while at the same time rejecting criticisms of the right from any position as being totally unfounded. And you tend to lash out at the criticism in an attempt to discredit it, but unfortunately most often employing arguably the most common logical fallacy in existence on the Internet, the "argumentum ad hominem" logical fallacy, which is arguing against the person making the statement, rather than the statement itself. This usually manifests itself, as you normally do, as dismissing information from any source, be it a politician, TV network, radio station, Web site, or otherwise, almost always pointing to a particular bias from the source, and then therefore claiming that it cannot be trusted. The problem with that, of course is, bias doesn't trump facts. If a biased individual makes a factually correct statement, his or her bias does not somehow, as of by magic, make the statement factually incorrect.

The only other things we have to go on is the use of the phrases "a chip off the old block" and "noted Northeastern liberals." The phrase "a chip off the old block," of course means similar in character from where and whence it came, usually applied to a male to indicate a similarity to his father. It can be used both for high praise, or more often, for biting criticism. Knowing that you generally go not hold liberals in particular high esteem, especially those who criticize conservatives, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude you use the phrase to mean biting criticism rather than high praise. The phrase "Northeastern liberal" is a generally regarded euphemism for "even more out of touch with reality than a pedestrian liberal," and your addition of "noted" would seem to indicate you view him as a Northeastern liberal of particular note, even more even more out of touch with reality. So, it would appear that you used both phrases pejoratively.

Te conclusions I reached, based on all of the above, is you made a post to point out the liberalness of the author, rather than comment about what the author said, and even went so far as to try and taint the author by closely associating him with his father, in what seemed to be one of your classic "argumentum ad hominem" logical fallacies, in an attempt to discredit the article posted by Ragman. And oddly enough, by pointing out the pedigree of the author, rather than simply addressing the article itself, you gave the article even more credibility than it would have otherwise received, and further elevated here by referring to him as an expert.

For one, it's not a logical fallacy, as my conclusions were drawn from the above, none of which is a logical fallacy. It doesn't surprise me at all that you fail to see the logical fallacies when you use them, but can somehow find them where they don't even exist in others' arguments. Second, my response was, in total, my own conclusions. Trust me, I in no way implicitly misrepresented my own conclusions. to assert that I misrepresented my own conclusions is, not to put too fine a point on it, pointedly butt-stoopid. If you're going to try and back peddle and claim what you meant to say was that my conclusions presented somehow an "implicit misrepresentation" of your position, I'd advise against it since you're going to be on the same butt-stoopid point since you never explicitly presented any position at all which could then be misrepresented by anyone.

I'm truly at a loss as to why you would make such an ignorant, and wrong, accusation. All of the possibilities have you coming off not looking very good, I'm afraid. Did you just make it up because you're mean? Frankly, that's the one that makes you look the best. Do you seriously have such a high level of reading comprehension and obtuseness that you can't understand what I write? Or perhaps you are so steeped in your own conservative bias that anyone who doesn't share the same bias is therefore liberal, and whatever they say you view as a criticism of a conservative, even when it's not there? I have never, ever condemned certain websites (whatever that means) or pundits for their biases and agendas in their written opinions. Not once. I highly value the opinions and biases of those with which I do not agree. It's the only way to learn what the other opinions are, and enables me to at least try and look at differing opinions from another point of view. There are sometimes certain parts of an agenda that I may condemn, if it's a destructive agenda (such as many parts of the Gay Rights Agenda, parts of the anti-abortion agenda, parts of the pro-abortion agenda, the "rob from the rich and give to the poor" liberal agenda, and the "I have a deep-seeded need to tell you what to do, how to live and what to think" conservative agenda, etc.). I have certainly disagreed with many websites and pundits, but that's hardly any kind of condemnation of their presenting their bias or agendas.

I will certainly condemn a website or a pundit if they use their bias or agenda in such a way as to present their opinions or agenda as factual rather than opinion or philosophy, and I will unmercifully condemn them if they use their bias or agenda to intentionally mislead, misinform, misrepresent, or in some cases, fabricate the truth, because doing so is beneath contempt and should be condemned by any intelligent thinking human being. And while I won't make statements of condemnation, I will, absolutely, ridicule the pee out of someone who believes that biased, agenda driven lies are actually unbiased factual news if they try and use it to support their own arguments.

Yeah, so? Bias doesn't trump facts. It never has, and it never will. Just because someone is biased doesn't in and of itself mean that what they said should be dismissed. If that were true, then you'd have to dismiss as untrue every stated fact by Fox News, CNN and every other news organization on the planet because they are biased. That's patently absurd.

He didn't present himself as an objective observer. The article linked by Ragman is not an objective news article, it's in the OPINION section of the US News ad World Report. You seem to want to dismiss it out of hand, or at the very least mitigate (lessen the gravity of, which is ironic since you've made him an expert on the matter) and diminish (to make less impressive and less valuable, which is again, ironic for the same reason) the article solely because it isn't an objective opinion, and do so not based on what was written, but rather based on the person who wrote it, which is a stellar example of a logical fallacy (not to mention a massive failure in critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment).
My, my...talk about defensive. Yet most all of the above conclusions are based on unfounded assumptions and your own personal biases about the intentions or thoughts of others - logical fallacies all over the place, to say nothing of the condescending little personal digs.

The statement " I highly value the opinions and biases of those with which I do not agree." is especially interesting. Recent disparaging shots about conservative websites like Townhall, Breitbart and Hot Air - to name a few - would indicate otherwise. For example: "You people are driving me crazy posting half-assed crap journalism from Townhall. I mean it. :rage: :banghead:"

From that statement, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume you don't want to hear any more "half-assed crap journalism from Townhall"?

And then there's "Yes, I know, you'd be mute and opinion-free without Breitbart and Hotair and a few other "here's what you need to think" Web sites. I also see where you got your opinion about the anti-police campaign, and even that was just someone else's opinion, tooooo. Have you ever had an original thought? I do wonder.
I'll say it again, because Breitbart epitomizes it.
.."

But what the heck - maybe everyone's entitled to their opinion, I guess.:rolleyes:
 
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Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
My, my...talk about defensive. Yet most all of the above conclusions are based on unfounded assumptions and your own personal biases about the intentions or thoughts of others - logical fallacies all over the place, to say nothing of the condescending little personal digs.
Name one unfounded accusation I used to draw any conclusions, and show one logical fallacy that I used. I just got through detailing how I arrived at my conclusions, including the foundations for doing so.

The statement " I highly value the opinions and biases of those with which I do not agree." is especially interesting. Recent disparaging shots about conservative websites like Townhall, Breitbart and Hot Air - to name a few - would indicate otherwise. For example: "You people are driving me crazy posting half-assed crap journalism from Townhall. I mean it. :rage: :banghead:"

From that statement, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume you don't want to hear any more "half-assed crap journalism from Townhall"?
That's an example if criticizing opinions passed off as news, not of the opinions themselves, and then someone using the opinions as factual information to support an argument. All they're is doing is saying, "Hey, this is my opinion, I know because I got it from here, and lookit lookit lookit I've found someone else who agrees with me so therefore thus ergo my opinion is right!" It is not even remotely a condemnation of Townhall's bias on their written opinions.

And then there's "Yes, I know, you'd be mute and opinion-free without Breitbart and Hotair and a few other "here's what you need to think" Web sites. I also see where you got your opinion about the anti-police campaign, and even that was just someone else's opinion, tooooo. Have you ever had an original thought? I do wonder.
I'll say it again, because Breitbart epitomizes it.
.."
Again, not a criticism, much less a condemnation, of the bias of written opinions, but of someone (Muttly) who believes the opinions to be factual and then uses them to support their arguments. Lookit lookit lookit!

But what the heck - maybe everyone's entitled to their opinion, I guess.:rolleyes:
Yep, even if those opinions are based on fantasy.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Are you 2 discussing Trump or are you just picking on each other. You guys need to get back on topic or shut up.
No one is forcing you to click on the thread and read it. If you don't like the thread, don't read it. If you feel like you have the moderating authority to determine how a thread topic evolves and can therefore tell people to shut up when the evolution and their postings doesn't suit you, then I feel I have the authority to tell you to kiss my little green ass.
 
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