The Trump Card...

davekc

Senior Moderator
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Fleet Owner
Think Trump called it right. Quite a bit that is already listed. In a fairly close election, the last thing you want to do is change the news story off Clinton disasters. So much madness with "fake news", anything volunteered would be spun into everything imaginable. Look at the tingly feeling MSNBC got with just one that was years old. Some of the best comedy out of nbc in awhile. :D
 
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Worn Out Manager

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The sources of all of his income would be listed. That, they say, will show if any of his income derived from foreign sources which could show a conflict of interest.
But on his personal return only dollar amounts from his business' returns would show through. So if one of his entities received a favorable payment from a foreign entity it wouldn't be reflected on his personal return?

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Turtle

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The sources of all of his income would be listed. That, they say, will show if any of his income derived from foreign sources which could show a conflict of interest.
But on his personal return only dollar amounts from his business' returns would show through. So if one of his entities received a favorable payment from a foreign entity it wouldn't be reflected on his personal return?

Sent from my hand-held Etch-A- Sketch
He doesn't file a personal return, and then a business return for each of his businesses, he just files the one return with all of his business income and losses detailed within the one return. Trump Organization, LLC.

It's what allows him to offset income from one business with losses from another business, under a tax provision known as "net operating loss," which allows people to report various losses from their businesses on their personal tax returns as a deduction. So all of his income and losses from each of his businesses would be detailed in his personal return, and would also necessarily contain complete and detailed P&L statements from each of his business entities.

In other words, all of his business entities' income, expenses, profit and loss, would be detailed within his one big, fat, hairy personal return, i.e., the Holy Grail for Trump Haters.
 
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Yowpuggy

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Grizzly

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Owner/Operator
Trump made a complimentary statement about Australia's health care system; a system that resembles Obamacare. His staff quickly walked that back. In 2000, Trump published a book in which he advocated universal health care. While he is attacking Obamacare now and celebrating the "repeal and replace" win in the House, Universal health care clearly remains in Trump's mind. Keep an eye on that. You may very well see Trump say good things about universal health care again.

As flexible as he has proven to be with his public policy views, it would not surprise me to see Trump become a full-blown universal health care advocate. I'm not saying this is going to happen. But if it did, it would not surprise me.

I agree! When the politics dictate it, those opposed will back into universal health care & become advocates.
Trump, if he's still around, will act as if he invented the idea.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Well, it's a done deal until it gets to the Supreme Court, where the States would have to convince the Court that such a legal mandate does not add any additional requirements to those found in the Constitution for the Office of the President, that any such ballot requirement is in the national interest, and that it is not as result of partisan politics. Historically, state ballot measures that have failed to meet any of those three requirements have been struck down by the Court. Even if the Court were to allow such a ballot measure, they would almost certainly restrict it from applying to any sitting President and Vice President.

Maybe so, maybe not. While I don't have the insight into the Supreme Court you do, I do not share your confidence the Court would easily find against this mandate. We're not talking privacy. We're talking ballot access, which the states clearly control and which they have often used to allow one type of presidential candidate to get on the ballot and keep others off (independents, third party). All federal candidates are required to jump through various state hoops before they are granted ballot access. A tax return release hoop is in the public interest and would be just one more of many states are already allowed to impose.

We'll likely get the chance to see how this plays out. With a number of states now advancing the legislation, the Supreme Court may very well find itself taking this up.

EDIT: I discussed this with Diane to gain her views as a former attorney. She suggested Trump may have a Fifth Amendment defense if a state law was before the Supreme Court that required presidential candidates to release their tax returns. If there was grounds to do so, Trump could argue that he cannot be constitutionally compelled to release his tax returns because doing so would incriminate himself.

She also suggested a free speech defense. A candidate who say donated money to Planned Parenthood would not want that disclosed if he or she campaigned against funding that organization with tax dollars. Forcing such an involuntary disclosure by requiring tax return release could be said to violate that candidate's free speech rights, or in this case, the freedom to not speak; also known as withholding a material fact.

While this was amusing food for thought, Diane and I did not discuss this at length. We'll leave it to Turtle to write at length about these points and educate us about how the Supreme Court would view the Fifth and First Amendment arguments in this matter.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
As a business owner which would you rather do, employ more hr people to keep up with the all the insurance bs or deduct a percentage of your employees pay and send to the government?

If only it was that simple. With payroll now, we hire a service to keep up with all the employment tax BS, AND we send a percentage of the employee's pay to the government, AND we send an additional amount to the government that comes out of our pocket.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
By the way, in New York, which is one of many states taking up this action, it's called the TRUMP act; Tax Returns Uniformly Made Public.

Interesting discussion about it in this article and this one and this one.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
We're not talking privacy. We're talking ballot access, which the states clearly control and which they have often used to allow one type of presidential candidate to get on the ballot and keep others off (independents, third party).
Correct, we're not talking privacy, we're talking First Amendment (association) and Fourteenth Amendment (due process) for otherwise qualified candidates. Ballot access laws cannot include things like a literacy test, property ownership, race, religion, or even that a candidate have a job which requires filing a tax return. A law requiring the payment of a filing fee to be able to get on the ballot has twice been ruled unconstitutional, unless that law allows for the obtaining of a certain number of signatures as an alternative. You can be indigent and still run for office. A partisan candidate running for a political party, the party itself can require a fee to be considered as a candidate for that party, but the state itself cannot require a fee to be on the ballot without an alternative to the fee.

States can impose filing deadlines, and can impose that a candidate obtain a certain number of signatures to get on the ballot if they are an independent candidate and not part of a political party. The Court has ruled such actions to be constitutional, because there is a compelling State (and national) interest in "preservation of the integrity of the electoral process and regulating the number of candidates on the ballot to avoid voter confusion." (emphasis totally mine)

Here's an overview collection of the eleven SCOTUS cases on ballot access:

Ballot access in return for the release of tax returns, while a clever attempt at pure partisan politics, is a long shot in the extreme.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Ballot access in return for the release of tax returns, while a clever attempt at pure partisan politics, is a long shot in the extreme.

Or, it's an open question that is likely to be taken up by the Supreme Court in the near future.
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
By the way, it's called the TRUMP act; Tax Returns Uniformly Made Public.
Pun intended?
Without question. These days, most any legislative Act has to have a catchy anagram. Ted Cruz introduced a bill to seize El Chapo's rumored funds (not a dime of which has ever been located, BTW) and use the money to pay for the border wall. The act is called the Ensuring Lawful Collection of Hidden Assets to Provide Order Act. Or, for short, the EL CHAPO Act.

Politicians love acronyms. Love them. I mean, like they really, really love them. Like medicines that bear the scientific name of hexaflourodiazeprine but are marketed as Happinex, politicians give bills acronyms to make them easier to remember and refer to, and quite often, easier to swallow. The best ones are clever, unique and unforced. There's nothing more painful in Pun Land than seeing an obvious attempt to craft a nice, 12-letter acronym where you just know a politician had their staffers up late into the night digging deep in thesauruses to try and figure out what tortured set of words to assign the thing (which is exactly what Ted Cruz admitted his staff did, although he did give the staffer who came up with it credit, so props to Ted).

The SMOKE Act, introduced by Rep. Jackie Speier (D-Calif.), is Stop Selling and Marketing to Our Kids E-Cigarettes Act.

Rep. Rick Larsen (D-Wash.) gave us the TIGER CUBS Act of 2015, which stands for the Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery for Cities Underfunded Because of Size Act

Some of them are acronyms made to shame people if they vote against it. Like, the PATRIOT Act, or more accurately, the USA PATRIOT Act (which really started the whole acronym mess). Who would vote against the USA PATRIOT Act? Someone with a conscious, that's who. The Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act mostly violated the privacy rights of Americans.

Others just have names that don't have anything at all to do with what's in the bill. Like, after 9/11, the farm bill was named the “Farm Security Act” because, who could vote against security? 80% of that bill was Food Stamps. A couple of years ago the farm bill was named Agriculture Reform, Food and Jobs Act, because "jobs" is the word all the cool kids are using. The only jobs to be found in the bill were the jobs that handed out subsidies to farmers.

One of my favorites is the Personal Responsibility in Food Consumption Act, which protects restaurants from being sued for a person’s weight gain or obesity. It doesn't have a catchy acronym, but it got a nickname that stuck. It's the Cheeseburger Bill.

But this naming business is more serious than one might think. There's a push and several proposals to remove the ability to name legislation from those proposing it, and give the naming authority to a non- or bi-partisan entity. In the landmark United States v. Windsor, a discussion (dispute) in the Supreme Court happened regarding the law's short title (DOMA) and the role of short titles in inferring legislative purpose. Much like Trump's campaign rhetoric was used to infer the purpose of the travel ban, legislative short titles are too often used to infer the "real" purpose of the legislation.

If short titles are used by the Supreme Court when determining legislative purpose, then they should be written in accurate, neutral language like that used for other substantive aspects of statutes. All citizens, including legislators and judges, should be able to examine a law without being influenced by overtly partisan and misleading language. The essence of government is to inform and benefit the citizenry, not mislead; statutes, being the preeminent outcome of the democratic process, should be held to this foundational standard.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Ballot access in return for the release of tax returns, while a clever attempt at pure partisan politics, is a long shot in the extreme.

Or, it's an open question that is likely to be taken up by the Supreme Court in the near future.
"Long shot" and "open question" aren't mutually exclusive.

The fact that the Supreme Court hasn't given a definitive ruling specifically on the matter makes it an open question, sure, but the fact that Supreme Court has ruled that States cannot impose qualifications for prospective members of the U.S. Congress stricter than those specified in the Constitution in Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton ("States have no authority "to change, add to, or diminish" the age, citizenship, and residency requirements for congressional service enumerated in the Qualifications Clauses") and flat rejected (even in 2 of the 4 dissenting opinions) the argument that it was constitutional because it is formulated as a ballot access restriction rather than an outright disqualification of congressional incumbents, and the fact that the same precedent was used in lower courts to reject ballot access measures to force Obama to release his college transcripts in order to be on the ballots in some states for the 2012 election, makes it a long shot.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Ballot access in return for the release of tax returns, while a clever attempt at pure partisan politics, is a long shot in the extreme.

Or, it's an open question that is likely to be taken up by the Supreme Court in the near future.
"Long shot" and "open question" aren't mutually exclusive.

You can frame the issue, state your interpretation of law and speculate on a Supreme Court ruling all you want. The fact is an expediter on the road and a gym owner in his home office are not going to be the ones to decide.

I do know that when a new question comes before the Supreme Court, constitutional experts arguing both sides of the case will apply their skills and constitutional knowledge at levels well beyond lay citizens like us. I'm glad we agree this is an open question. Not knowing what arguments will be made, and not knowing the minds of the justices, I am not as confident in the outcome as you.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter

Comey held a news conference to "release derogatory information about the subject of a declined criminal investigation."

Even at the time, I though that was perhaps the most bizarre thing I've ever seen come out of Washington. The whole thing was just bizarre - to detail how scummy she was and how she did all these things that were clearly illegal, but then immediately says he didn't think she really meant to do anything illegal even though she knew exactly what she was doing and why she was doing it. That July news conference was leaps and bounds more bizarre than the announcement right before the election about re-opening the investigation. At least the latter had some logical reasoning behind it, in that he had previously told Congress that if anything changed that he'd let them know, and something changed so he let them know.

And everything we've heard out of him since the election has been colored by evasiveness, defensiveness, and a thick aire of arrogant smugness, as if "oversight, schmoversight."

Good riddance.
 
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