The Trump Card...

Turtle

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700 Million$$ to create 700 jobs? Really....Sure Mr Trump we will stay BUT....Meet our newest employee...Mr. Robot....

Ford's Bow to Trump Benefits Robots, Not Workers

Ford's Bow to Trump Benefits Robots, Not Workers
Jan 5, 2017 6:51 AM EST
By
Mark Gilbert
Ford Motor Co.'s decision this week to scrap a $1.6 billion investment in Mexico, following criticism from Donald Trump, shows government intervention can be "good for industry and it's good for employment," according to French presidential candidate Marine Le Pen. As far as the workers in this particular case are concerned, the numbers suggest otherwise.

The U.S. automaker says abandoning its Mexico plan and instead spending $700 million to expand its domestic operations in Michigan will create just 700 jobs. Even I can work out that's $1 million per new employee hired.
Actually, no, the numbers don't suggest otherwise. Anything to cast Trump in a negative light, right? Yes, 700 jobs for a $700 million investment is $1 million per job. So what? It's not even remotely relevant. I wonder if Mr. Gilbert did the math on the 450 projected jobs the $1.6 billion investment in Mexico would have yielded. It's $3.6 million per job.

Amid the ongoing debate about whether robots are poised to steal everyone's jobs, that feels like a chillingly low number of new hires for an investment of that scale.
That's retarded. If Ford invested $700 million and used seven people to maintain the robots, and no other workers at all, it would mean they invested $100 million per job. Still chilling? The amount of the dollar investment a manufacturer puts into a plant isn't judged by how many jobs it creates or how much that investment is per worker, it is judged by the return on that investment in sales of the manufactured goods, less the costs of operations.

In The Netherlands, Philips invested $1.9 billion in a "lights-out" facility that produces electric razors using 128 robots. They employ 9 quality assurance workers at the end of the manufacturing process. FANUC, a Japanese robotics company, has been operating a robot production facility since 2001 where robots build robots, for a total investment of more than $3 billion, and runs completely unsupervised by human beings for up to 30 days at a time. Foxconn, the manufacturer of the iPhone and other electronics, has 10 lights-out facilities where only a handful of people are employed for logistics, testing and inspection.

In other Let's Make Trump Look Bad news... Trump Tweeted "Jackie Evancho's album sales have skyrocketed after announcing her Inauguration performance." That gets immediately spun as "Trump Takes Credit for Album Sales" (even though he didn't), and as "Trump Fact Check: Falsely Claims Album Sales Skyrocketed" (even though the claim is 100% true). But, but, but, the week following the announcement was the week leading up to Christmas, so the 94% jump in sales from 5,840 albums to 11,944 albums is like totally about the Christmas bump, even though people were all over Twitter talking about buying the album as a direct result of the announcement. But, but, but, 11,944 albums is nothing compared to the chart-topping A Pentatonix Christmas that sold 185,000 copies in the same week, so there. Never mind that all holiday albums increased by 21 percent, and overall album sales were up 18 percent, as compared to Evancho’s 94 percent gain. So, Trump is totally Pants-On-Fire about her album sales skyrocketing since the announcement, even though he's not.
 
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OntarioVanMan

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doesn't change the fact after all the different numbers are conjured up...Robots are the future and jobs can not be guaranteed here in America or anywhere for that matter....as long as humans are considered a liability, an expense...its a changing world...If he forces them to stay that will just accelerate the push to robotics....and we can not go back to the dino days....
 

Turtle

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doesn't change the fact after all the different numbers are conjured up...Robots are the future and jobs can not be guaranteed here in America or anywhere for that matter....as long as humans are considered a liability, an expense...its a changing world...If he forces them to stay that will just accelerate the push to robotics....and we can not go back to the dino days....
Soooo, you're making the case that we should just go ahead and ship as many jobs out of the country ASAP because they're all going to be taken over by robots eventually, and that it will happen sooner rather than later if we don't? :D

There's no question that robots will be taking over many, if not most jobs. Robots replacing humans needs to happen organically (see what I did there?). When Carrier, for example, ships 800 jobs to Mexico, are those 800 jobs performed by robots, or are the performed by 800 people? (hint: it's the latter).

If Ford, Carrier or anyone else wants to invest x-dollars into a manufacturing facility, even if it's one that is fully lights-out and employs zero people, it's still better to have them do that here rather than some other country.
 
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OntarioVanMan

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doesn't change the fact after all the different numbers are conjured up...Robots are the future and jobs can not be guaranteed here in America or anywhere for that matter....as long as humans are considered a liability, an expense...its a changing world...If he forces them to stay that will just accelerate the push to robotics....and we can not go back to the dino days....
Soooo, you're making the case that we should just go ahead and ship as many jobs out of the country ASAP because they're all going to be taken over by robots eventually, and that it will happen sooner rather than later if we don't? :D

There's no question that robots will be taking over many, if not most jobs. Robots replacing humans needs to happen organically (see what I did there?). When Carrier, for example, ships 800 jobs to Mexico, are those 800 jobs performed by robots, or are the performed by 800 people? (hint: it's the latter).

If Ford, Carrier or anyone else wants to invest x-dollars into a manufacturing facility, even if it's one that is fully lights-out and employs zero people, it's still better to have them do that here rather than some other country.
absolutely not saying that...I read Trump does a lot of tongue in cheek responses...and we really have to read, almost translate what his point is....but the danger is pushing too hard and the U.S turns into an isolated state...the world only needs the U.S to consume the goods....it can be made elsewhere...
 

OntarioVanMan

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but the danger is pushing too hard and the U.S turns into an isolated state...

You say that like it's a bad thing. The less dealings we have in the world the better off we are whether it be trade deals or dispensing freedom at the end of a gun.
Oh so you think the United States supply Everything it needs? It doesn't need other countries it doesn't need trade ..it to stand on its own?
 

Turtle

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The US doesn't currently supply everything it needs, but it certainly could with very few exceptions, particularly with regard to manufactured goods. But contrary to conventional wisdom, Trump is not an isolationist at all. He's simply against bad trade deals, and against too much costly meddling where we get little or nothing out of the meddling.

His Tweeting is hilarious. He Tweets, the media obsesses over it for days. One of his latest stock market-moving and currency-valuation Tweets is "Toyota Motor said will build a new plant in Baja, Mexico, to build Corolla cars for U.S. NO WAY! Build plant in U.S. or pay big border tax." Toyota stock drops, Mexican Peso drops.

And it's hilarious, because as the Reuters story on it says, "Trump's tweet confuses Toyota's existing Baja plant with the planned $1 billion plant in Guanajuato city. Baja produces around 100,000 pick-up trucks and truck beds annually. The plant in Guanajuato will build Corollas and have an annual capacity of 200,000 when it comes online in 2019, shifting production of the small car from Canada."

So the new plant won't remove any existing jobs from the US (it will from Canada, tho), but he wants it built here instead of Mexico, anyway. Sic 'em, Trump!

What will be interesting is how Reuters characterizes the Tweet as Trump getting the two plants confused, and in how the rest of the MSM characterizes it. I'm betting it will be along the lines of "He's ignorant and out of his league, too knee-jerk reactionary, and we don't need someone like that with his finger on the button."
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Oh so you think the United States supply Everything it needs? It doesn't need other countries it doesn't need trade ..it to stand on its own?

We couldn't make it as a total isolationist country with the current setup but minimizing trade deals is best for the American workers. We are a nation of consumers which will shift wealth out of the US to other places that produce goods.
 
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JohnWC

Veteran Expediter
I'm not sure about total isolated
But I know we have enough raw materials that we don't need to inport any but our government wants them in resurve for the next world War
food wise we produce
plenty
But we need to stop shipping jobs away from here
And keep some of our money here instead of this global thingy lol
 
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OntarioVanMan

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I'm not sure about total isolated
But I know we have enough raw materials that we don't need to inport any but our government wants them in resurve for the next world War
food wise we produce
plenty
But we need to stop shipping jobs away from here
And keep some of our money here instead of this global thingy lol
do you realize how expense things would be if everything was produced here?...lots are already complaining about not paying a decent wage to live on..as in the minimum wage... a lot think raising the minumum wage is bad....but there are a ton more +'s to raising it then ,take aways
 
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OntarioVanMan

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do you realize how expense things would be if everything was produced here?
It would almost be like living in Canada.
almost...LOL ...smarty....Canada needs to get tough with the US on trade again...too many freebees

If this continent gets into a tariff war it could push us all into inflationary forces and Europe and Asia will roll right over us...
 
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OntarioVanMan

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Overall I agree...Nafta should be revisited every 10 yrs or so because things change around the world...Nafta is for the benefit of just not 1 country but for the continent as a whole....so we 3 don't rape each other over while Asia and Europe invade us with their stuff.... so yes NAFTA should be looked at and if things have turned into too much favour for one country over the other 2 then renegotiate..indeed....as the US continues to shut auto plants in Canada and shift towards the US ....American cars are coming into Canada almost Tariff free...and that is not good either...
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
do you realize how expense things would be if everything was produced here?...lots are already complaining about not paying a decent wage to live on..as in the minimum wage... a lot think raising the minumum wage is bad....but there are a ton more +'s to raising it then ,take aways

If the jobs and money stay here then the minimum wage "issue" will correct itself as the competition for workers increases. It would require a change in direction and thinking in this country.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
Do you not enjoy your foreign made dress shirts, Chinese cowboy boots, Taiwan christmas decorations, your Kohl's 100 dollar dress slacks made in Bangladesh and so on...how about that authentic southern charm bedroom furniture made in Saigon or Ho Ho Ho city,,,you know the stuff, breaks easily, has that red grain wood that snaps in half under pressure while leaning back in one of those chairs....there may be more comments later.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
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Do you not enjoy your foreign made dress shirts, Chinese cowboy boots, Taiwan christmas decorations, your Kohl's 100 dollar dress slacks made in Bangladesh and so on...how about that authentic southern charm bedroom furniture made in Saigon or Ho Ho Ho city,,,you know the stuff, breaks easily, has that red grain wood that snaps in half under pressure while leaning back in one of those chairs....there may be more comments later.
Last month I took a couple slabs of Granite countertops no less from Indiana to a Minnesota home builder, the capital of marble and granite...mine was imported from China....Gee whiz...they can buy it cheaper from China then locally...
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
Do you not enjoy your foreign made dress shirts, Chinese cowboy boots, Taiwan christmas decorations, your Kohl's 100 dollar dress slacks made in Bangladesh and so on...how about that authentic southern charm bedroom furniture made in Saigon or Ho Ho Ho city,,,you know the stuff, breaks easily, has that red grain wood that snaps in half under pressure while leaning back in one of those chairs....there may be more comments later.
Last month I took a couple slabs of Granite countertops no less from Indiana to a Minnesota home builder, the capital of marble and granite...mine was imported from China....Gee whiz...they can buy it cheaper from China then locally...
It doesn't make sense, until you see the invoice from China. My son got some info on handling flashlights made in China, he could buy them for about 50cents each and they sell for 9.95 in the store, but you had to buy a tractor full to get that deal,,,ugh, Walmart can...
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
Nafta should be revisited every 10 yrs or so because things change around the world...Nafta is for the benefit of just not 1 country but for the continent as a whole....
In 1992 (and 1993) Bill Clinton, et al. promised that NAFTA would result in a significant increase in the number of high quality jobs for Americans, that it would dramatically reduce illegal immigration, and that it would generate a rising trade surplus with Mexico. NAFTA was enacted on Jan 1, 1994. It was revisited in 2004 under Junior Bush and everyone said, "Give it some time." It was again revisited in 2014 under Obama and Obama said, "It's great! I wanna expand it to the entire Pacific Rim."

In 1992 Ross Perot said, "We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. It's pretty simple: If you're paying $12, $13, $14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor,...have no health care—that's the most expensive single element in making a car— have no environmental controls, no pollution controls and no retirement, and you don't care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south. ...when [Mexico's] jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then it's leveled again. But in the meantime, you've wrecked the country with these kinds of deals."

The alleged thinking was, it would dramatically reduce illegal immigration by creating lots and lots of high paying jobs in Mexico, thus people would be motivated to stay in Mexico rather than come here to work. Lots and lots of jobs were created, but they paid the prevailing rate, where the labor market set the price, same as any other market.

It as also thought that increased Mexican employment would mean increased exports from the US to Mexico because Mexicans would be clamoring to buy our products. That didn't happen. A large part of the problem, and one reason why the export numbers don't appear to be as bad as they really are, is many US exports are simply being shipped to Mexican factories (specifically, maquiladores)where they are assembled, and then shipped back to the U.S. as final products. These are not products destined for import consumption by Mexicans, yet they made up 68% of exports, and they are counted as part of the export numbers. And because the assembled parts often times come back in duty-free (as with many auto component assemblies when the raw materials originated here), they are not counted as part of the import numbers, so as to make the trade deficit look to be a lot less than it actually is.

And, the thinking went, or at least how it was presented, because of the increased exports, lots and lots of high paying jobs would be created here to support those exports. That didn't happen, either.

Clinton was wrong, Junior was wrong, Obama was wrong.

Ross Perot was dead-on-balls accurate, though.

And even today, people point to the low unemployment figures, including those in manufacturing, and tout NAFTA's success. They don't take into account the ridiculous labor participation rate and the number of people who have just given up on finding work, and when they look at the manufacturing unemployment figures, they calculate those numbers based on current need and capacity versus the jobs that go unfilled. They don't take into account the massive numbers of jobs that have been lost due to the need not being there, because they were moved out of the country. Only domestically produced exports are the ones that support U.S. labor, so the measure of net impact of trade should be calculated using only domestically produced exports as an indicator of job creation, not the stuff that gets exported just so that it can be imported.

As of 2014, NAFTA has resulted in a staggering $181 billion U.S. trade deficit with NAFTA partners Mexico and Canada and the related loss of 1 million net U.S. jobs. growing income inequality due to the dramatically reduced wages and near decimation of the middle class, and a doubling of desperate immigration from Mexico.

Among many, many others, Allied Signal, General Electric, Johnson and Johnson, Kimberly-Clark, AT&T, Mattel, Proctor and Gamble, Siemens, Whirlpool, Xerox and Zenith all made specific promises to create or maintain jobs, and all have laid off workers because of NAFTA as certified by the U.S. Department of Labors NAFTA TAA (retraining) program. Some have moved 100% of production out of the country. And according to the same Department of Labor NAFTA TAA, the NAFTA-related job loss for the companies in the report (which are manufacturing jobs directly for consumers, both domestic and for export to other countries, i.e., Master locks, Levi's jeans, Barbie dolls, anything Fischer-Price, anything Mattel, Converse sneakers, televisions, Huffy bikes, auto parts and automobiles, air compressors) has increased 276%, and the number of jobs lost directly due to a "shift in production to Mexico" for the same group has increased by 480%.(these figures do not include jobs shipped to China and other countries).

The high paying jobs that were created since NAFTA was implemented have not been in manufacturing, but mostly in high tech, the disturbingly overwhelming percentage being filled by non-US citizens through H1B visas. It's not like a laid off auto worker in Warren, OH can just up and move to Silicon Valley and get a job. But those high paying non-citizen jobs are counted in the unemployment figures, as are the $10 an hour service jobs that the $30 hour former-auto and manufacturing worker has been forced to take.

The government's monthly and quarterly unemployment figures are BS, the "newly created jobs" figures are BS, and so are the "net jobs created" because of NAFTA and Free Trade.


It doesn't make sense, until you see the invoice from China. My son got some info on handling flashlights made in China, he could buy them for about 50cents each and they sell for 9.95 in the store...
That's exactly it. The market sets the retail price of anything. The cost to produce them doesn't, the cost of advertising doesn't. If the cost to produce products set the price, those 50 cent flashlights would be selling for a dollar or two, tops. They will tell you that if we don't move jobs to Mexico, the products would cost more. Yet, they move jobs to Mexico, where it is dramatically cheaper to produce, and does the price suddenly drop? Nope. But the bottom line profit sheet of the company that moved those jobs there sure went up. "But, but, but, we can't compete with the cheaper labor from imported products from other countries." Except they can, with Fair Trade instead of Free Trade.
 
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