Rumsfeld resigns

greg334

Veteran Expediter
>So the problem is with the press for releasing classified
>information?
>
>Seems to me the problem is with the CIA or Congressmen who
>gave the press the info.

Well first yes there is a big problem within the CIA and congress and these people should be found.

second the NYT and WP both knew it was classified info, they were asked not to release any information and they both went ahead and published the stories. There excuse was that the people needed to know. they disregarded requests, the laws and ethical journalism.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Greg, you say "the terrorists are winning because: 1 The New York Times is printing secrets, 2 Lawyers are on the terrorists side by bringing cases to American courts for noncitizens not on our soil, and 3 The left, which is Sheehan, Moore, and others, want to see us lose"

1: Who should be executed for 'outing' Valerie Plame as a CIA
operative?
2: Can you cite one actual case of this happening?
3: That is so preposterous it doesn't bear rebuttal - no one wants
us to lose, and mudslinging isn't a very persuasive tactic, you
know.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
On the contrary, Cheri... many benefit if we lose. A lot of ppl in this country would like to see us as being weak in the eyes of the rest of the world. The NWO crowd wants us to have the same voice as a country like Cuba. And there are many who believe there's no place for a super power. A loss by the US strengthens the case of all of these ppl.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Cheri
All three of my points are valid and factual.

1: Who should be executed for 'outing' Valerie Plame as a CIA
operative?


OK, this is a twisted example that is not treason. She was not an operative when she was named, so said Special Counsel Fitzgerald. After all the investigations, the only thing that came out of the money spent is a charge of obstruction. The other thing is that there is a clear difference between a group of documents that explain a top secret program that affects the country and the safety of the country and one small group of operatives.

2: Can you cite one actual case of this happening?

Yep sure can, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and there are a number of cases pending and decided for terrorist by lawyer here. Why was there so much hatred for Timothy McVeigh but not Bin Ladin’s bodyguard/driver? What really bothers me the most is the involvement of the ACLU with the FREE representation of these people and the lack of access to the ACLU for the common US citizen on real important cases like Kelo.

3: That is so preposterous it doesn't bear rebuttal - no one wants
us to lose, and mudslinging isn't a very persuasive tactic, you
know.


Sorry Cheri, listen to them – Sheehan has said several times that she would like to see us lose. Moore, OMG he is so un-American, never mind. Some air America people want to see the assassination of the president. Well just take an objective view and see who is blaming the US for all these problems that we have nothing to do with. If these guys were true Americans, they would not support the terrorist.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
My point was that the administration screams bloody murder about leaks, while ignoring their own use of tbe technique. If CocaCola can keep their formula secret, why can't the United States Government keep secrets? I find it incredible that The New York Times could break the law with impunity, but then I find it incredible that the President can, too.
I'm not familiar with the case you cite, I only know that when we treat some humans as less deserving of "human rights", we are on our way down a very slippery slope. "Terrorist" is a label that can be applied to a lot of people, depending on the definition, and allowing the current administration to define it is a scary thought for me.
Cindy Sheehan is a certifiable nutcase, granted, but I don't get your venom towards Micheal Moore - I've read some of his stuff, and it is very well documented. He backs up his assertions with facts, and he urges people to vote - neither Democratic nor Republican, but for whomever they believe will fight for their principles, not "take the money & run". I don't agree with his position on gun control, but that doesn't make everything he says wrong. I also read the right wing side, too, because neither side is all right, or all wrong - I have to make up my own mind, in the end. A process that's easier if I hear both sides of the story.
You also complain about "the liberal media", which I don't understand. Granted, I don't get my news from tv, but I know there are conservative newspapers, like the Wall Street Journal, so how is the media always "liberal" in your opinion? And if you truly believe the places you get the news are biased, maybe you should just balance it with places that are biased in the opposite direction, instead of dismissing them all with a label.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Of course some humans are less deserving of human rights than others. Radical Muslims that randomly kidnap American civilians to be beheaded deserve no consideration whatsoever. It makes any criticism of American "torture" seem silly. The Americans had the audacity to have a dog bark at a prisoner. Shocking!! They had an attractive female officer give a lap dance to a prisoner and then mocked him when he, uh, responded. OMG! Shocking, outrageous!

It's the predominantly liberal media that tries to make us look like the bad guys. Fox news, the Wall Street Journal do lean to the right. But the list of left leaning news outlets is much, much longer.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
My point was that the administration screams bloody murder about leaks, while ignoring their own use of the technique. If Coca Cola can keep their formula secret, why can't the United States Government keep secrets? I find it incredible that The New York Times could break the law with impunity, but then I find it incredible that the President can, too.

I fully and completely agree with you. You may miss my point; Treason is Treason and is the only crime that is defined by the constitution with both the crime and the punishment. Now I am not in anyway defending the Bush administration, on the contrary I think that they and the entire Republican Party needs to step up and make this and Kelo real issues just like closing off the borders. I would not expect Pelosi and others to even go along with real investigations, they benefit from all of this and I believe that they will never stand for anything that would help us as a whole.

I'm not familiar with the case you cite, I only know that when we treat some humans as less deserving of "human rights", we are on our way down a very slippery slope. "Terrorist" is a label that can be applied to a lot of people, depending on the definition, and allowing the current administration to define it is a scary thought for me.

The case is about bin ladin’s driver suing Rumsfeld, which I thought the courts could not allow because of separations of powers and past supreme court decisions. Now mind you that this guy is not repentive of what he has been part of, has said if he could he would kill more Americans and a whole bunch of other things. The human rights issue I find somewhat as a double edge sword, I mean that these people who were captured with weapons and in some cases trying to kill us and our allies, are no more than animals and don’t deserve any protection. They were not part of an army or anything like that, they were just like the rest of the terrorist. I think that the few who were captured, like the 15 year old kid who was going home with food or the old many who was sleeping does deserve something out of the mess. But over all the people who are at Gitmo are treated better than our children here. They have free everything and more legal assistance than any one here – that is not right regaurdless who they are.

Cindy Sheehan is a certifiable nutcase, granted, but I don't get your venom towards Micheal Moore - I've read some of his stuff, and it is very well documented. He backs up his assertions with facts, and he urges people to vote - neither Democratic nor Republican, but for whomever they believe will fight for their principles, not "take the money & run". I don't agree with his position on gun control, but that doesn't make everything he says wrong. I also read the right wing side, too, because neither side is all right, or all wrong - I have to make up my own mind, in the end. A process that's easier if I hear both sides of the story.

I have no doubt you are well informed but as for mr. moore, there is a lot more to his story. I think I posted a bunch of stuff here already but he is just like anyone else in his crowd, an opportunist – nothing more. The sad thing is he built a reputation on being screwed over at GM, what a lie and he said that he would help others in that situation, another lie. His politics are very left and he has said in the past several times that the only thing good for this country is a change in government like China (or some other communist country)

The others are just as bad. I guess my point is when you have someone that goes to another country and stand with leaders who are enemies of ours or say things negative about our country; it shows hatred for this country.

You also complain about "the liberal media", which I don't understand. Granted, I don't get my news from tv, but I know there are conservative newspapers, like the Wall Street Journal, so how is the media always "liberal" in your opinion? And if you truly believe the places you get the news are biased, maybe you should just balance it with places that are biased in the opposite direction, instead of dismissing them all with a label.

Read the journalist creed. Tell me that being a journalist comes before one’s country? It should not be this way and if it does, than they don’t deserve any protection under the law. See it is simple that since the 1960’s we have had a press that has been against anything against conservatives. In addition, I find that a majority of brainwashed journalist students can’t figure out for themselves what unbiased and objective point of view is because of the indoctrination at the institutes of higher learning.

Oh sorry about that.

The press is liberal, read things carefully. A good example is the Lieberman situation. The press practically shut him out when it came to his speeches and campaign. Also as Highway mentioned the list is far longer on the left leaning. Outside of the blogs, there are very few true sources of right leaning media – yea blame fox for being on the right side of the isle but they are number four in the ratings game.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Greg, I'm not well informed, just trying to get enough information to make up my own mind, is all. I'm sure that most journalism students, & academics are liberal, because that's the personality type that would be attracted to those fields - but that doesn't make everything they say wrong, does it? I believe one of President Bush's greatest failures is his refusal to consider both sides of a subject, and his well publicized desire to not be told what he doesn't want to hear. A closed mind doesn't make good decisions, period.
Human rights must apply to all humans, or civilization is doomed. When we decide that some humans deserve less, we must decide which humans deserve some rights, or none at all - whom would you trust to make that decision?
Last, people who are critical of our country's government are not the enemy, and shooting the messenger won't change the message, either.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Greg, I'm not well informed, just trying to get enough information to make up my own mind, is all.

I'm sure that most journalism students, & academics are liberal, because that's the personality type that would be attracted to those fields - but that doesn't make everything they say wrong, does it?


That’s odd; the personality attracts the students to the field? I know a few open minded former journalist students who were attracted to the field because they loved to write. Their experience is such that they left the major because they could not even debate issues taking the opposite position from what the class or professor held. See in most schools, even the schools I went to, all had left leanings, the problem today is that they scream freedom of speech and expression but if one person takes up an opposing point of view, they do what ever it takes to stop that person and stifle that view – a lot like Stalin did.

But you ask “that doesn't make everything they say wrong, does it?†no not really if they show an objected view but they don’t. The sad thing is it is like a collusion to write things that are negative in nature or one sided about issues. Lately if you read about any official that has gotten into trouble, the democratic official’s party is usually not included in the piece while the independent and republican’s is stated in the first paragraph or two.

Case in point is Cindy Sheehan and the press; most of the photo ops were staged and the twist on how she represents ‘all the mothers who lost a son or daughter’ (AP) and used as a talking point for every thing is one example. Another is the Lieberman thing and even a better one is the complete and utter disregard for any positive news out of Iraq. You have a few, very few soldiers and contractors who say negative things but a vast majority are trying to tell the truth about what is going on and they are ignored. It is odd that they ignore the families who have loved ones going back on their second tour but will send reported to interview the one or two who went AWOL.

I believe one of President Bush's greatest failures is his refusal to consider both sides of a subject, and his well publicized desire to not be told what he doesn't want to hear. A closed mind doesn't make good decisions, period.

You know I agree with part of the failure part but I think that his greatest failure is not using the Veto stamp on anything except one bill. He has for the most part been ineffective domestically, another disappointment and lost somewhat with the idea that he should have continued to carry the flag of conservatism. He and his staff were one minded on many issues, I agree with you on that but one or two issues; border control and the Kelo decision, he failed in my book.

Human rights must apply to all humans, or civilization is doomed. When we decide that some humans deserve less, we must decide which humans deserve some rights, or none at all - whom would you trust to make that decision?

OK I understand where you are coming from, but let’s be frank about the situation, since the Church commission and the dismantling of our intelligence system under the Carter administration, which included ‘torture’, we have been struggling with keeping our country safe. We face two fronts, domestic and overseas with the domestic part being the press and what we discussed before but overseas, we need to make sure we have the intelligence to properly protect you and I and that is impossible with the restraints that have been put on the CIA. Without the people on the ground inside places like Iran or Iraq, we end up with capturing people to find out information. The funny thing is, the countries who are complaining the most, Germany and France, I bet use some sort of torture behind closed doors, especially France.


Last, people who are critical of our country's government are not the enemy, and shooting the messenger won't change the message, either.

Well there is an ethical difference between citizens who are critical of our country and stating so within the country and those who go overseas and open their mouths. The problem is that when you have people hoping that the terrorist will win, there is a problem.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
>>Just what is finish what we started...? When do you think it
>>will end? What will define a win?
>>
>>They have a constitution, a legistative body in place...are
>>we to continue with a police action?
>>
>>I know, "stay the course"...the infinite course...
>
>You know I think you are right, they have almost everything.
>the problem I see is that we are more of a stablizing force
>opposed to either an occupational force or a police force
>and removing some or all of the troops would trigger more
>reaction from what the Iraqis are trying to get rid of.
>Building an army and infrasturcture took years with the
>germans, why do people think it would be easy with people
>who have been forced to live in the 19th century?
>
>what do I considered finished? a stable goverment and closed
>borders.
>
>One of the biggest mistakes we made was not to close the
>borders off when we moved into Iraq. I think that this would
>have prevented a lot of problems in the long run. But I know
>that we are experiencing the same exact problem and know
>that this is now a moot point with the dems, they will give
>these invaders a break and further cheapen citizenship -
>opps, thats for another thread.


One of the biggest mistakes the Coalition did was to go in thiere to begin with!
You guys always say U.S this U.S that remember it's a coaliton of forces.
Saddam was a dictator no doubt but he was no terrorist..What did Saddam do so bad?
he gassed the Kurds... So what! He figured it would be an expensive thing and cause too many Iraqi deaths so he gassed them.
And why did the U.S. of A drop the bombs on Japan? Same reason!
Invade Kuwait? He wanted back what was his to begin with.
Lordy in Sudan and Rwonda they hack to death women and children in thier wars and WE don't do a darn thing.
Who cares if Iraq falls...Let Iran or Syria have and support it. One less country to worry about. Let history run it's course.
 
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