Prohibit Pledge of Allegiance

Tennesseahawk · Feb 23, 2014

Turtle said:
I think you mean ensure, not insure, but nevertheless, public schools is exactly what those who had children devised as a way to ensure their children received an education.

Yet they're failing.

Tennesseahawk · Feb 23, 2014

Turtle said:
"The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people and be willing to bear the expenses of it. There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves." - John Adams, 1785

Yep, and Adams was often wrong.

RLENT · Feb 23, 2014

Dynamite 1 said:
The whole thing is bull crap. It's the Pledge Of Allegiance, if you're gonna live here, learn it, say it and quit complaining.

Hey ... if you feel compelled to do so, by all means: feel free to have at it ...

But don't presume to tell me what I ought to do ... and don't even dream about telling me or my wife what our children ought to be doing ...

Dynamite 1 said:
Never heard such annoying crap in my life.

And I've never heard such annoying crap as your authoritarian demand above ...

Dynamite 1 said:
It's not about religion or politics or anything else. It's about being an American.

Well ... it was written by a socialist (indeed, a Christian one) ... so one might object on those grounds alone.

Mebbe you should read up a little:

Pledge of Allegiance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dynamite 1 said:
It's funny how they say you can't say it in school or maybe it's you have to be excused if yo choose not to say it but we sure saw a lot of children that seemed proud to do it.

Like these ?

Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg

Or these ?

Dynamite 1 said:
When we did Wreaths Across America we said the Pledge more than we have said it since we got out of grade school. Reciting it is simply a patriotic and supportive American gesture that we should have our children return to.

Fine ... then teach your children ... well ...

And leave mine to me and my wife.

Dynamite 1 said:
So many things have been done away with since the time we all went to school and those changes have altered some of the values our children need instilled upon them. It's time to put all this petty crap behind and be an American or go home. Whomever can put their religion,political and other personal issues aside for the minute time it takes to participate.

And those who feel it's important can put aside their authoritarian desires for everyone to participate for the minute it takes for them to do it ...

Dynamite 1 said:
After all this is where you were born or if not this is where you chose to come so show some support for the symbol that represents where you live.

That symbol ... for some folks particularly ... represents many, many things ...

Dynamite 1 said:
Sorry if I ranted or repeated, this whole subject just really pi**es me off !!!!!

No worries ... you're entitled to your opinion, same as the rest of us ...

Tennesseahawk · Feb 23, 2014

Dynamite 1 said:
The whole thing is bull crap. It's the Pledge Of Allegiance, if you're gonna live here, learn it, say it and quit complaining. Never heard such annoying crap in my life. It's not about religion or politics or anything else. It's about being an American.

It's funny how they say you can't say it in school or maybe it's you have to be excused if yo choose not to say it but we sure saw a lot of children that seemed proud to do it. When we did Wreaths Across America we said the Pledge more than we have said it since we got out of grade school. Reciting it is simply a patriotic and supportive American gesture that we should have our children return to. So many things have been done away with since the time we all went to school and those changes have altered some of the values our children need instilled upon them. It's time to put all this petty crap behind and be an American or go home. Whomever can put their religion,political and other personal issues aside for the minute time it takes to participate. After all this is where you were born or if not this is where you chose to come so show some support for the symbol that represents where you live.

Sorry if I ranted or repeated, this whole subject just really pi**es me off !!!!!

I don't pledge allegiance to a government symbol, or any symbol, other than the Constitution. The flag is not the symbol that represents where I live. It says nothing about Michigan. It is a symbol that represents everything that is wrong with this country... bullying the little guy into doing what the big guy wants, whether it's the states, individuals, or other countries.

Symbols are used to incite feelings that otherwise wouldn't be aroused. Words do the same... words like "patriotic," or "terrorist." When those in power want you to feel a certain way, they plug in the propaganda and flash the symbols. It's funny that the same thing the Chinese do now, and used to do with the Russians in the cold war, were once called brainwashing, but are called patriotism under our flag.

RLENT · Feb 23, 2014

Tennesseahawk said:
I don't pledge allegiance to a government symbol, or any symbol, other than the Constitution. The flag is not the symbol that represents where I live. It says nothing about Michigan. It is a symbol that represents everything that is wrong with this country... bullying the little guy into doing what the big guy wants, whether it's the states, individuals, or other countries.

Symbols are used to incite feelings that otherwise wouldn't be aroused. Words do the same... words like "patriotic," or "terrorist." When those in power want you to feel a certain way, they plug in the propaganda and flash the symbols. It's funny that the same thing the Chinese do now, and used to do with the Russians in the cold war, were once called brainwashing, but are called patriotism under our flag.

Wisdom ...

Tennesseahawk · Feb 23, 2014

RLENT said:
Wisdom ...

For me, it's kinda like a fart. It doesn't last long.

Dynamite 1 · Feb 23, 2014

Guess you all missed when I said put aside your religious and political beliefs. I suppose any of you that are 45 years of age older had these feelings when you were in grade school and were saying the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before class started. To me it's not about politics or religion it about what we was instilled in us by our parents when we were young. Those of you that just posted your very strong opinions about what I said. I have but one question, did your parents insist that you abstain from participating in reciting it when you were in school providing it was still being done.

I can take your leave me to do what I want and teach your own children not mine comment and it's ok cause you are correct. You teach yours and I will teach mine but also remember everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thats what it was, my opinion of how the issue should be handled.

Guess we have a different way of looking at what we consider symbols of America which is ok also. We were just brought up to respect certain things we were taught were American symbols. Our parents had many, some that aren't really recognized by most. Our parents weren't really very political either. Religious, yes.

Sorry for the ruffled feathers but that's how we see the subject.

Almost forgot, when we were around all the children we spent 7 days with they all had their hand over their hearts along with their parents, grand parents, teachers, firemen, police officers, veterans, Harley riders, truck drivers and a slew of others. No one had their hand in the air arm fully extended.

Tennesseahawk · Feb 23, 2014

Dynamite 1 said:
Guess you all missed when I said put aside your religious and political beliefs. I suppose any of you that are 45 years of age older had these feelings when you were in grade school and were saying the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before class started. To me it's not about politics or religion it about what we was instilled in us by our parents when we were young. Those of you that just posted your very strong opinions about what I said. I have but one question, did your parents insist that you abstain from participating in reciting it when you were in school providing it was still being done.

I can take your leave me to do what I want and teach your own children not mine comment and it's ok cause you are correct. You teach yours and I will teach mine but also remember everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thats what it was, my opinion of how the issue should be handled.

Guess we have a different way of looking at what we consider symbols of America which is ok also. We were just brought up to respect certain things we were taught were American symbols. Our parents had many, some that aren't really recognized by most. Our parents weren't really very political either. Religious, yes.

Sorry for the ruffled feathers but that's how we see the subject.

Almost forgot, when we were around all the children we spent 7 days with they all had their hand over their hearts along with their parents, grand parents, teachers, firemen, police officers, veterans, Harley riders, truck drivers and a slew of others. No one had their hand in the air arm fully extended.

It's all good, Dynamite. Just that the 5 yrs I spent in the Marines showed me an ugly side, that I only continue to understand more as I get older. When lust for power and money encompasses a man, his heart turns black; and those in control of our government own the blackest. The idea of "truth, justice, and the American Way" is as much a fallacy as Superman himself. We need people to call for liberty, not pledges... and certainly not for government endorsed patriotism.

jamom123 · Feb 23, 2014

Turtle said:
I agree. Education back then was based on an educated mind having the basics of a classical education (languages, literature, philosophy, history art, archeology, mathematics and science). Political correctness has gotten us away from that.

Amen to that Turtle.

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Dynamite 1 · Feb 23, 2014

Tennesseahawk said:
It's all good, Dynamite. Just that the 5 yrs I spent in the Marines showed me an ugly side, that I only continue to understand more as I get older. When lust for power and money encompasses a man, his heart turns black; and those in control of our government own the blackest. The idea of "truth, justice, and the American Way" is as much a fallacy as Superman himself. We need people to call for liberty, not pledges... and certainly not for government endorsed patriotism.

I guess, my family spent time in the service also. Granted it was a different time, WW 1 & 2. My wife was an army brat. Her dad was a lifer, retired, Korea and Vietnam. None of my family or hers would be pleased by those thoughts and that's just the way they brought us up. Belief and respect for all things that are American and leave politics and religion out of it. That is however, just how we were raised.

Turtle · Feb 23, 2014

Dynamite 1 said:
I have but one question, did your parents insist that you abstain from participating in reciting it when you were in school providing it was still being done.

Parents insisting, one way or the other, is one thing, but the State insisting, one way or the other, is quite another thing. A statement like, "It's the Pledge Of Allegiance, if you're gonna live here, learn it, say it and quit complaining," coming from an individual means one thing, but the same statement coming from THE STATE means a whole 'nuther thing. When YOU say that to someone, it comes off as opinion or even arguably good advice. When THE STATE says it to you, it's chilling, because once that door is open they can start telling you other things you MUST say, and more importantly, lets them tell you all the things you MUST NOT say.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Supreme Lord King Obama for which it stands, our kingdom united, with loyalty and subservience from all to his glory.

As ridiculous as that seems, that's what's on the other side of that door.

“If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.” - Justice Robert Jackson, US Supreme Court in the 1943 West Virginia v Barnette case ruling that no American be required to recite the Pledge or any specific part of it.

SWTexas1 · Feb 23, 2014

As we debate about the pledge, I wonder what that pledge means to some, as Red Skelton puts its best all just attach the fallowing clip for your viewing. With the divide in this Country today caused by greed and corruption in all levels of government. It might be Time for us all to go back to taking a pledge to make this a Great Country Once Again.
Just my Humble Option

Red Skelton's Pledge of Allegiance - YouTube

Dynamite 1 · Feb 23, 2014

That's kinda what I been trying to get across. Don't let politics and religion stop it from being said. Do it cause of your values and the way you were brought up !!!

OntarioVanMan · Feb 23, 2014

Turtle said:
Parents insisting, one way or the other, is one thing, but the State insisting, one way or the other, is quite another thing. A statement like, "It's the Pledge Of Allegiance, if you're gonna live here, learn it, say it and quit complaining," coming from an individual means one thing, but the same statement coming from THE STATE means a whole 'nuther thing. When YOU say that to someone, it comes off as opinion or even arguably good advice. When THE STATE says it to you, it's chilling, because once that door is open they can start telling you other things you MUST say, and more importantly, lets them tell you all the things you MUST NOT say.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Supreme Lord King Obama for which it stands, our kingdom united, with loyalty and subservience from all to his glory.

As ridiculous as that seems, that's what's on the other side of that door.

“If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.” - Justice Robert Jackson, US Supreme Court in the 1943 West Virginia v Barnette case ruling that no American be required to recite the Pledge or any specific part of it.

I agee with that judge......Forced patriotism. seems to take the shine off the free part....IMO

cheri1122 · Feb 23, 2014

OntarioVanMan said:
I agee with that judge......Forced patriotism. seems to take the shine off the free part....IMO

That's exactly why people [including me] object to forcing schoolchildren to recite it. Not because we have any problems with what it says, but because the way it's done is just indoctrination. Unless it's done differently than when I recited it every day in school, it's just words, memorized and repeated. I can't recall ever being told what each phrase really means, [as Red Skelton did], so it was the same as reciting poetry, to me.
I would rather kids were shown the Red Skelton breakdown, and discuss the meaning behind the words, than forced to mindlessly recite something they don't really understand at all.

Dynamite 1 · Feb 24, 2014

I agree, maybe it was the tiny community school I grew up in but I can remember being taught what it meant. Every year right after school started the American Legion came into our school rooms said it with us and explains what it meant. Our teachers then took over and taught more. I remember spending about a 1/2 hr a day for a week going through it. This happened every year while in grade school when we got in junior high and high school it was just about an hour long assembly and was included with our Veterans Day ceremony.

ntimevan · Feb 24, 2014

Dynamite 1 said:
I agree, maybe it was the tiny community school I grew up in but I can remember being taught what it meant. Every year right after school started the American Legion came into our school rooms said it with us and explains what it meant. Our teachers then took over and taught more. I remember spending about a 1/2 hr a day for a week going through it. This happened every year while in grade school when we got in junior high and high school it was just about an hour long assembly and was included with our Veterans Day ceremony.

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cheri1122 · Feb 24, 2014

Seriously: any pledge must be voluntary, because if it isn't, it's meaningless. Better our kids learn to believe what's in the Pledge of Allegiance, than parrot it by rote. I never say it, but I try to live it, because that is what it means to me.