Planned Parenthood's Problem vs. Capitalism

[cheri1122]

Probably not those atheist fanatics:

Second Planned Parenthood Hit By Arson In A Month. Those Videos Are Working!

I cannot believe that all these years after Roe v Wade, we still have to fight the same battle. I have to wonder, if they succeed in making abortion impossible to get, [their new goal, and one they're getting closer to reaching every day, with the help of conservative legislators & governors], what do they see happening? Do they not know what happened before it was legal to terminate a pregnancy? Do they really not understand that women will find a way, as they always have, because they will not let an accidental pregnancy ruin 2 lives? Do they seriously think women will just go ahead and have the babies and live happily ever after?
You know what else I cannot believe? The absolute contempt and rudeness shown to Cecile Richards by the Senators Chaffetz [sp?] and Johnson in the hearing on Planned Parenthood. If the Republicans want to impress women, they just did an excellent job of doing it badly.

 

[RLENT]

I cannot believe that all these years after Roe v Wade, we still have to fight the same battle. I have to wonder, if they succeed in making abortion impossible to get, [their new goal, and one they're getting closer to reaching every day, with the help of conservative legislators & governors], what do they see happening? Do they not know what happened before it was legal to terminate a pregnancy? Do they really not understand that women will find a way, as they always have, because they will not let an accidental pregnancy ruin 2 lives? Do they seriously think women will just go ahead and have the babies and live happily ever after?

Hey ... it's the Party of Stupid ... what can I tell ya ?

You know what else I cannot believe? The absolute contempt and rudeness shown to Cecile Richards by the Senators Chaffetz [sp?] and Johnson in the hearing on Planned Parenthood.

Didn't catch it.

Ron Johnson from Wisconsin ?

If so, he's a real piece of work (wing-nut) ...

On Chaffetz, from what I've seen in a number of hearings on C-SPAN, that's just the way he is ... lotsa sanctimonious outrage and outright hostility toward witnesses ...

Somebody probably needs to slap him upside the head.

OTOH, he is actually known for conducting the business of the committees he chairs in a relatively fair and bi-partisan manner, in terms of working with members of the opposition.

If the Republicans want to impress women, they just did an excellent job of doing it badly.

Like I said: Party of ...

 

[Turtle]

I cannot believe that all these years after Roe v Wade, we still have to fight the same battle.

It's a continuing battle of "My deeply religious Victorian morality is superior to your morality, or lack thereof, therefore I get to tell you what to do, how to think and how to live," which is the very position taken by Anthony Comstock, the self-labeled "Weeder of God's Garden," when he founded the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice, which was created to oversee the morals of the American public. Within a year the Postal Inspector convinced Congress to pass the Comstock Law in 1873, which as part of a backlash against the growing movements for suffrage and birth control in an effort to control women and confine them to a traditional childbearing role. also made illegal the delivery by U.S. mail, or by all other modes of transportation, of "obscene, lewd, or lascivious" material, including sex toys and things that can be used as sex toys, abortificants and contraceptives, as well as prohibiting any methods of production or publication of information pertaining to the procurement of abortion, the prevention of conception and the prevention of venereal disease, even to students of medicine. Even medical anatomy books were prohibited from being transported. Which is why the old saying "Religion makes you stupid" is so spot-on.

In 1921 Margaret Sanger created the predecessor of Planned Parenthood to combat the Comstock Law regarding contraception and abortion, necessarily strongly advocating in favor of both, a position from which the organization has not wavered.

Through his efforts, all states had felony abortion laws on the books by 1900. Prior to Comstock, abortion laws in the US followed English Common Law, which prohibited abortion after the "quickening," or after the baby started kicking. Abortion prior to the quicken was not an issue or a problem. But even with the felony abortions laws on the books, by the 1930s licensed physicians were nevertheless performing 800,000 abortions a year. So, clearly, laws against abortion won't stop abortion any more than gun control laws will stop gun violence.

In the intervening 100 years or so from the passage of the Comstock Law, little by little the Supreme Court ruled parts of it unconstitutional, until finally there was none of it left. In the 1960s states began repealing their abortion laws so that by the time Roe v Wade occurred abortion was legal in 20 states with most of the other 30 poised to do the same.

So, out of this nation's entire history, including the entire pre-Independence, abortion has been illegal for between 70 and 80 years, depending on the state. The religious objections are spurious, as there are none, and religion is used solely as a tool for those to get what they want, namely, to tell others what to do, what to think, and how to live. It's really very, very simple - if you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Equally simple is the notion that you need to stop forcing free people from having to mold to your particular version of morality.

 

[davekc]

As far as my own personal opinion, I come at PP from a more fiscal problem then a moral one. A lot of wasted money and with the passage of Ocare, they really shouldn't be getting anything from the taxpayers. If they have no insurance, well, then they need to sign up. They already are getting subsidies, so no need to pay for those services twice.

 

[cheri1122]

I have to admit, I couldn't read Turtle's entire treatise - I tried, but kept getting distracted over the part about not sending anything that could be used as a sex toy through the mail. Apparently, they had very limited imagination in 1873, lol.

 

[cheri1122]

As far as my own personal opinion, I come at PP from a more fiscal problem then a moral one. A lot of wasted money and with the passage of Ocare, they really shouldn't be getting anything from the taxpayers. If they have no insurance, well, then they need to sign up. They already are getting subsidies, so no need to pay for those services twice.

One huge problem with Ocare is what the government [insurance industry?] considers "affordable". They live in a different world altogether. Insurance companies make the monthly premiums look less painful by upping the deductible to ridiculous amounts: $6000 might as well be a million for many people.
Then there's the problem of finding a provider who will accept the insurance, and is taking on new patients [many aren't].
Throw in a couple kids and a lack of transportation, and many will just go without the birth control pills. [That reminds me: low cost insurance pays for low cost birth control pills, which are not as effective as the higher priced ones, much less the Depo Provera shot or an IUD - those are really pricey!]

 

[cheri1122]

Hey ... it's the Party of Stupid ... what can I tell ya ?


Didn't catch it.

Ron Johnson from Wisconsin ?

If so, he's a real piece of work (wing-nut) ...

On Chaffetz, from what I've seen in a number of hearings on C-SPAN, that's just the way he is ... lotsa sanctimonious outrage and outright hostility toward witnesses ...

Somebody probably needs to slap him upside the head.

OTOH, he is actually known for conducting the business of the committees he chairs in a relatively fair and bi-partisan manner, in terms of working with members of the opposition.


Like I said: Party of ...

Johnson from Ohio - a really snide, arrogant jerk. He & Chaffetz treated Richards like something they found on the bottom of their shoe. They wouldn't even let her answer, before badgering her with another snotty question - but she was a class act the whole time, IMO. [One columnist said that they never asked men CEO's what they get paid, but it's good that they asked her, because it highlighted that it isn't nearly enough to deal with their crap, lol]

 

[Turtle]

I have to admit, I couldn't read Turtle's entire treatise - I tried, but kept getting distracted over the part about not sending anything that could be used as a sex toy through the mail. Apparently, they had very limited imagination in 1873, lol.

That's what's so funny. Comstock and his army of postal inspectors had quite a varied imagination. Vacuum cleaner attachments were routinely seized. The US Postal Service once seized a shipment of promotional mini Louisville Slugger baseball bats (about the size of a tire thumper) headed to the New York Giants baseball team because they were't labeled "baseball bats" (despite having Louisville Slugger plastered all over them) and therefore could be considered to be "obscene, lewd, or lascivious" material in the hands of non-baseball players, and I suppose, baseball players, alike.

 

[iceroadtrucker]

 

[davekc]

Can't say or print that. They are victims.

 

[Turtle]

Can't say or print that. They are victims.

Congress, and feel-good legislation, allowed that to happen. I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of any and all of those opportunities any more than I blame evil rich people and even eviler corporations for figuring out ways to avoid paying taxes.

 

[cheri1122]

That's what's so funny. Comstock and his army of postal inspectors had quite a varied imagination. Vacuum cleaner attachments were routinely seized. The US Postal Service once seized a shipment of promotional mini Louisville Slugger baseball bats (about the size of a tire thumper) headed to the New York Giants baseball team because they were't labeled "baseball bats" (despite having Louisville Slugger plastered all over them) and therefore could be considered to be "obscene, lewd, or lascivious" material in the hands of non-baseball players, and I suppose, baseball players, alike.

Like I said: limited imagination. That's a good thing, or I wouldn't have got that honey I ordered from eBee, lol.

 

[cheri1122]

Congress, and feel-good legislation, allowed that to happen. I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of any and all of those opportunities any more than I blame evil rich people and even eviler corporations for figuring out ways to avoid paying taxes.

Just one little quibble: almost none of the ways to live off government largesse actually work [for example: renting to someone on Section 8 does not allow the owner to designate the renter, and the waiting lists for a place are years long. Also, getting disability can take years, even for a clear and well documented disability, which "crazy" and "bad back" are not.]
Rich people and evil corporations however, can afford the best and brightest talent to find ways that didn't exist, and attorneys to defend them.

 

[Turtle]

Just one little quibble: almost none of the ways to live off government largesse actually work

That may be true, yet nevertheless, despite not being able to, millions of people are managing to make it work.

Rich people and evil corporations however, can afford the best and brightest talent to find ways that didn't exist, and attorneys to defend them.

Welcome to life. Headsup - it's not fair, nor was is designed to be. Despite the efforts of many to alter the nature of life on this planet, evolution still rules, even in societies.

 

[cheri1122]

That may be true, yet nevertheless, despite not being able to, millions of people are managing to make it work.

And I'd bet my next month's income that the overwhelming majority of those people would in fact prefer to work for a living, because being poor is hell. Every single day.

Welcome to life. Headsup - it's not fair, nor was is designed to be. Despite the efforts of many to alter the nature of life on this planet, evolution still rules, even in societies.

It wasn't designed to be fair, [which is a variable concept, depending which side of the desk you occupy], but it was designed to keep the unscrupulous from making it grossly unfair. When you look at income inequality, it's pretty clear the unscrupulous have been winning for decades.

 

[Turtle]

It wasn't designed to be fair, [which is a variable concept, depending which side of the desk you occupy], but it was designed to keep the unscrupulous from making it grossly unfair.

It most certainly was not. Evolution, and the survival of the fittest, is what drives all life, and scruples have nothing to do with it. Is it fair that a robin pulls a worm right out of its home and eats it? The robin is brutal and relentless with the worm, and the worm loses. And the robin doesn't share its worm with the other little birdies, either. Life has been unfair ever since the unscrupulous figured out how to hunt and gather more efficiently and refused to give what they collected to those who could neither hunt nor gather enough to sustain themselves. The unscrupulous survived.

When you look at income inequality, it's pretty clear the unscrupulous have been winning for decades.

Eons, actually. There has never, ever been a time in all of recorded history where the Utopian notion of income equality existed.

 

[cheri1122]

It most certainly was not. Evolution, and the survival of the fittest, is what drives all life, and scruples have nothing to do with it. Is it fair that a robin pulls a worm right out of its home and eats it? The robin is brutal and relentless with the worm, and the worm loses. And the robin doesn't share its worm with the other little birdies, either. Life has been unfair ever since the unscrupulous figured out how to hunt and gather more efficiently and refused to give what they collected to those who could neither hunt nor gather enough to sustain themselves. The unscrupulous survived.

Eons, actually. There has never, ever been a time in all of recorded history where the Utopian notion of income equality existed.

On evolution, you are correct. I wasn't thinking evolution, though, in the context of abusing the government, I was thinking of the structures of law, the Constitution, things designed to prevent the strong from abusing the weak[er] in a civil society. The things we use to moderate the law of the jungle.
And of course there's never been income equality - nor would it be a good thing. The tremendous increase in the inequality over the past 4 decades is unsustainable, however.

 

[Turtle]

On evolution, you are correct. I wasn't thinking evolution, though, in the context of abusing the government, I was thinking of the structures of law, the Constitution, things designed to prevent the strong from abusing the weak[er] in a civil society. The things we use to moderate the law of the jungle.

Covered it. "Welcome to life. Headsup - it's not fair, nor was is designed to be. Despite the efforts of many to alter the nature of life on this planet, evolution still rules, even in societies."

And of course there's never been income equality - nor would it be a good thing. The tremendous increase in the inequality over the past 4 decades is unsustainable, however.

Like everything, that goes in cycles, too. Kingdoms and empires have collapsed under their own weight because the level of inequality reaches the tipping point. This one will, too.

 

[davekc]

Just one little quibble: almost none of the ways to live off government largesse actually work [for example: renting to someone on Section 8 does not allow the owner to designate the renter, and the waiting lists for a place are years long. Also, getting disability can take years, even for a clear and well documented disability, which "crazy" and "bad back" are not.]
Rich people and evil corporations however, can afford the best and brightest talent to find ways that didn't exist, and attorneys to defend them.

Some of that is true depending on which state you are talking about. Some is pretty much instant and others have
the lists. What you tend to see however is that while they may be waiting, they are receiving assistance in many other forms and working under the table. Many times they will continue to work under the table even after collecting additional benefits.

 

[cheri1122]

Granted, my experience with benefits is limited to unemployment, but even that, which is earned, has so many strict rules and conditions that I find it very hard to believe that benefits that aren't earned would be easy to get. Especially with state and federal governments [who split the benefits] almost all claiming to be in dire straits. It would be easier to get a job, if one could get a job that covers the cost of living, that is.
Look at the trouble vets have getting adequate and timely assistance - and they're very popular, politically. How much harder is it for the politically unpopular to get "money for nothing"?
I read a pretty good illustration today of how different things are for working people and influential business: A couple in Alabama found their BCBS premiums raised last year from $800/mo to $1200 [same coverage as the previous year], and the deductible from $750/ea to $2000/ea. Blue Cross blames Obamacare, but interestingly, State Sen Slade Blackwell introduced a bill [which passed with no dissent] to include the salaries of insurance executives in a list of "confidential work papers" that are kept from public disclosure. BCBS is virtually the only insurance available in Alabama that satisfies the ACA rules [except for some 'sharing' plans that aren't much good] Coincidence?
Government is supposed to be "of, by, and for the people", not the greedheads for whom there is no such thing as 'enough profit'.