Paterno should be canned.

clcooper

Expert Expediter
Are you happy now?

nope . because no matter what the next time something like this happens the ones that are for Joe now will say the next guy should be hung . . because the next guy wont be of high power as Joe .
people will keep making excusses for others wrong doings .
people will still have 2 standards . there will still be laws made for one group and no laws for the other group .

sandusky and joe was freinds . joe was able to sleep at night knowing he was part of the cover up for his freind sandusky . and since he didnt know the children that were abused .he was able to sleep at night

sandusky slept at night because he believed what he was doing was right and it was something he liked to do . it was his KKK meeting

the same as the rest with the cover up they all slept at night because they didnt know the children . and they also got some benefit for the cover up
 

clcooper

Expert Expediter
Sitting around a campfire in the afterlife, Joe Paterno and alleged pedophile Michael Jackson share uneasy moments.

you cant say that Michael Jackson was never found in court to be guilty . even thou he settled out of court. so that means he is not guilty
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
you cant say that Michael Jackson was never found in court to be guilty . even thou he settled out of court. so that means he is not guilty

I am unable to decipher double or triple negatives. Nor can I prove a negative. Is a little clarity possible here?
 
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AMonger

Veteran Expediter
you cant say that Michael Jackson was never found in court to be guilty . even thou he settled out of court. so that means he is not guilty

Aristotle did say alleged.

Besides, "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to individuals. I can consider him a child molester, and he was. "Innocent until proven guilty" just means society can't lock him up for it or otherwise take away his civil rights until/unless he's proven guilty.

2012: Ron Paul or not at all.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"you cant say that Michael Jackson was never found in court to be guilty . even thou he settled out of court. so that means he is not guilty"

Neither was Joe. He was never charged with anything, might have been had he lived, but never was. There have been NO convictions in this case, nor any trials.

We have seen zero "facts" as yet. There is much more to come out. We can point fingers when we KNOW what happened. As of right now, we do not.
 

clcooper

Expert Expediter
"you cant say that Michael Jackson was never found in court to be guilty . even thou he settled out of court. so that means he is not guilty"

Neither was Joe. He was never charged with anything, might have been had he lived, but never was. There have been NO convictions in this case, nor any trials.

We have seen zero "facts" as yet. There is much more to come out. We can point fingers when we KNOW what happened. As of right now, we do not.

what is a grand jury ??
we do know the cover up has been going on since the 90s .
so how do you stop cover ups . by allowing the people invovled go free only go after sandusky . so they will be able to help with the next cover up

Aristotle did say alleged.

Besides, "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to individuals. I can consider him a child molester, and he was. "Innocent until proven guilty" just means society can't lock him up for it or otherwise take away his civil rights until/unless he's proven guilty.

2012: Ron Paul or not at all.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.

i dont need to say any more i already said it before

nope . because no matter what the next time something like this happens the ones that are for Joe now will say the next guy should be hung . . because the next guy wont be of high power as Joe .
people will keep making excusses for others wrong doings .
people will still have 2 standards . there will still be laws made for one group and no laws for the other group .

keep going to your KKK meetings ,keep drinking their koolaid . keep wearing their blinders .

just like The pot calling the kettle black
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
So, it is then a good idea that public figures, no matter who they are, are accused, tried and convicted on television and denied they right to due process? Just remember, that lack of due process will soon trickle down to everyone. We have a legal court system in place to determine innocence or guilt. The court of 'public opinion' is not a good thing.

If this continues, you and I will be next.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Besides, "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to individuals.
Actually it does, if the accusers have any integrity and self-respect at all. It's the Golden Rule. The court of public opinion is tightly is controlled by the mainstream media who is more interested in ratings than in the truth. When the court of public opinion finds someone guilty, especially with no proof to substantiate it, the mob mentality has been hookwinked for the sensational, the scandalous, the ratings money.

Until the very recent present, Joe Paterno's name was permanently engraved into the Big Ten Championship Trophy. Now, after nothing more than an accusation fed by the mainstream media and general over-the-top fake and misplaced genuine outrage, without so much as a scintilla of credible evidence to prove he had anything to do with enabling Sandusky, his name was permanently removed from the trophy. Based on an accusation. That's the kind of thing that can kill a man.

Have you never been accused of something you did not do?

The presumption of innocence is a fundamental, inalienable right which no one can take away. Not the State, not the individual.
 

clcooper

Expert Expediter
So, it is then a good idea that public figures, no matter who they are, are accused, tried and convicted on television and denied they right to due process? Just remember, that lack of due process will soon trickle down to everyone. We have a legal court system in place to determine innocence or guilt. The court of 'public opinion' is not a good thing.

If this continues, you and I will be next.

i dont need to say any more i already said it before

so how do you stop cover ups . by allowing the people invovled go free only go after sandusky . so they will be able to help with the next cover up


keep going to your KKK meetings ,keep drinking their koolaid . keep wearing their blinders .

just like The pot calling the kettle black

we already have the court of 'public opinion' but you dont see it or dont want to see it

how many public figures have you seen or heard off get the same jail time for the same crime as a non public figures.

just like a while back on EO a thread about a welfare mother with the child in the back of a pickup . the same ones that said the welfare mother should be hung .say Joe should be free.

which standard ,what standard ,

that is right they all SHOULD get their day in court . but you know that the cover up will follow them into the court room also .

what is the sence of haveing laws when people dont need to follow them . or only to use them against the people you dont like .

some of you will never get it because you will never open your minds and think .

allow the cover ups to Continue

because some day it wil hurt the USA .
 

clcooper

Expert Expediter
Actually it does, if the accusers have any integrity and self-respect at all. It's the Golden Rule. The court of public opinion is tightly is controlled by the mainstream media who is more interested in ratings than in the truth. When the court of public opinion finds someone guilty, especially with no proof to substantiate it, the mob mentality has been hookwinked for the sensational, the scandalous, the ratings money.

Until the very recent present, Joe Paterno's name was permanently engraved into the Big Ten Championship Trophy. Now, after nothing more than an accusation fed by the mainstream media and general over-the-top fake and misplaced genuine outrage, without so much as a scintilla of credible evidence to prove he had anything to do with enabling Sandusky, his name was permanently removed from the trophy. Based on an accusation. That's the kind of thing that can kill a man.

Have you never been accused of something you did not do?

The presumption of innocence is a fundamental, inalienable right which no one can take away. Not the State, not the individual.

Big Ten Championship commission is NOT a court . so they can do what ever they want .

"The trophy and its namesake are intended to be celebratory and aspirational, not controversial. "

"no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Reds." Hall of Fame Rose is the only living member of the ineligible list.
and all Pete did was bet on baseball games

isnt JoePa around children . he left Sandusky get away with it why would he stop the next guy . look into the pa child abuse laws

forget what ,who Joe was and think of him as a normal person . and then think of what has happened . what should be done if Joe was just a factory worker . MOST would be saying he should be hung from the highest tree . but NO not the GOD of penn state

""In the Penn State case, a graduate assistant named Mike McQueary reportedly witnessed former linebackers coach Jerry Sandusky assaulting a 10-year-old boy in the Penn State showers back in 2002. McQueary reported what he saw to head football coach Joe Paterno, Paterno notified athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, and they notified university president Graham Spanier.

None of them went to the police about Sandusky's alleged abuse.""

It takes a village to raise a child and to run a sex ring.


The Penn State Child Abuse Scandal: A Guide And Timeline : NPR
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Actually it does, if the accusers have any integrity and self-respect at all. It's the Golden Rule. The court of public opinion is tightly is controlled by the mainstream media who is more interested in ratings than in the truth. When the court of public opinion finds someone guilty, especially with no proof to substantiate it, the mob mentality has been hookwinked for the sensational, the scandalous, the ratings money.

We are all responsible for our actions. If you treat somebody as guilty when they are not, you incur moral guilt. So if I own, say, a restaurant and refuse to serve OJ Simpson or that cop who murdered the guy in cold blood in Washington--Meade--and got away with it, that's my right. Likewise, even if I call them murderers right to their face, I'm within my rights. I just can't get the State to incarcerate them, take away their civil rights, or otherwise punish them. If I'm wrong in my characterization of them as murderers, the only guilt I incur is moral guilt, and that's only if I'm wrong. If they're guilty and the State lets them go, it's the State that's wrong, not me, and they can get the H out of my diner. That's that freedom of association thing you may have heard about.

Have you never been accused of something you did not do?

You bet. There was an instance at work one time, and whether or not they believed me when I denied it, they could have fired me for it had they chosen to. There's that freedom of association thing again. Lots of times, companies fire anyone in their employ who gets arrested, guilty or not. I wouldn't want to live in a society in which the freedom of association is interfered with. You or I might be an employer some day (well, probably not now, since the country is rejecting Ron Paul and the economy is going to crash and we'll be lucky to have an animal skin to keep us warm while we wish we had a piece of shoe leather to eat, but you know, in the general sense), and we wouldn't want the gummint telling us who we can and can't fire. There are so many restrictions on it now; more would be intolerable.

The presumption of innocence is a fundamental, inalienable right which no one can take away. Not the State, not the individual.

No, not true at all. Restrictions on powers restrict the gummint. Case in point: freedom of speech. That the GUMMINT can't restrict your speech doesn't mean you have to allow any type of speech in your living room, or that On Time Media can't regulate speech on this forum. Likewise, that the State is obligated to treat someone as not guilty if a jury says so impose no obligation on me, legal, ethical, or moral. In fact, I have the obligation to treat as guilty someone who I know is guilty. If I own a daycare center, you think I should hire someone recent acquitted of molestation charges? You wouldn't stand for that if you had a toddler enrolled there. How about we hire that woman in Florida recently acquitted for murdering her daughter?

I can't personally incarcerate someone in the first place, so there's no danger of me doing it to an innocent man. Innocent until proven guilty is a restriction on the State, not individuals.
--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
So if I own, say, a restaurant and refuse to serve OJ Simpson or that cop who murdered the guy in cold blood in Washington--Meade--and got away with it, that's my right.
That's what Ollie McClung thought, too, but the Supreme Court told him otherwise. You can only refuse service to someone on the grounds of a patron who detracts from the safety, welfare, and well-being of other patrons and the restaurant itself. You cannot refuse service just because of your feelings.

That's that freedom of association thing you may have heard about.
Freedom of association is the right to assemble. It's got nothing to do with kicking someone out of a restaurant.

You bet. There was an instance at work one time, and whether or not they believed me when I denied it, they could have fired me for it had they chosen to. There's that freedom of association thing again.
You seriously need to read up on freedom of association.

Lots of times, companies fire anyone in their employ who gets arrested, guilty or not. I wouldn't want to live in a society in which the freedom of association is interfered with.
I mean, seriously, seriously read up on it. To introduce the subject of hiring and firing into this is a straw man argument.

No, not true at all. Restrictions on powers restrict the gummint. Case in point: freedom of speech. That the GUMMINT can't restrict your speech doesn't mean you have to allow any type of speech in your living room, or that On Time Media can't regulate speech on this forum.
You're confusing a limitation of powers versus unalienable rights. Unalienable rights are rights which are inherent and cannot be transferred or taken away by anyone, including the government, but especially not individuals. You certainly don't have to allow any type of speech in your living room, but you cannot deny them to speak their mind under any and all circumstances outside of your living room. Restriction of powers prevents the government, or GUMMINT, if you like, from depriving individuals from their life or liberty, but that doesn't mean you can deprive someone of those rights simply because you are not the government. You can think all day long that someone is guilty, you can even voice that opinion, but you cannot take it upon yourself to deprive them of any of their rights because of what you think. The presumption of innocence in the law stems directly from the unalienable right of liberty, where the right to be left alone and not be persecuted without proof. It' also part and parcel of the Golden Rule.

In fact, I have the obligation to treat as guilty someone who I know is guilty.
Ah, but the key to that lies in the definition of "know". All too often people say they know this or that, but they are doing nothing more than defining "know" to mean, "I believe it a really, really lot." It's something you have to take great care in avoiding, because you could be wrong in the absence of proof. This is true regardless of the context, be it legal, moral, or ethical.

I can't personally incarcerate someone in the first place, so there's no danger of me doing it to an innocent man. Innocent until proven guilty is a restriction on the State, not individuals.
I'm not sure why you are unable to incarcerate someone (deprive them of liberty) in the first place, but the restrictions of the State do, absolutely, apply to the individual, a well. The individual cannot deprive another individual of their unalienable rights without just cause.

My Liberty is my unobstructed action according to my will, within the limits drawn by the equal rights of others. The right to vigorously protect one's rights is inherent in having those rights in the first place, and the rights of others must be as vigorously defended.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
That's what Ollie McClung thought, too, but the Supreme Court told him otherwise. You can only refuse service to someone on the grounds of a patron who detracts from the safety, welfare, and well-being of other patrons and the restaurant itself. You cannot refuse service just because of your feelings.
I unequivocally can. When I was a guard, I threw many people out for no reason other than "the manager said so." We were always upheld against all complaints. It's private property, the owner/manager says you're out, so you're out. Don't need a reason beyond that. When the cops got involved, the persons ejected thought they would get some satisfaction but all they would get is a trespass warning, which barred them for good. Had they just walked away, they probably could have come back the next week and nobody would have said anything as long as they didn't cause trouble.

Comically, one group of university students disputed that we could throw them out just because the manager said so, and refused to leave. I ejected the most vociferous one forcibly and the others decided they'd walk on their own. They then went to another of the restaurant's chains across town and complained to the manager there, saying they were going to sue. They wanted my name, which, of course, he didn't have. They figured he had my name in his files. He ended up throwing them out, too.

A cop was thrown out of a diner recently in Portland just for being a cop. Made national news. And the proprietor is within his rights. Because it's his diner and he says so.

Now...as far as McClung, he ran into a buzzsaw because of our nation's history on race relations. There are several things on which race is an exception. It's an exception carved out solely for race/creed/ethnicity and whatever the numbnuts in Washington decide to add to it next week, which could easily be pedophilia. It's kind of like when Affirmative Action was passed; it was held up because some representatives didn't want quotas, and it wouldn't have passed unless there was some assurance that it wouldn't result in quotas. That assurance was given, then at the last minute, so-to-speak, an amendment was slipped in that said that it would be prima facie evidence of discrimination if the racial makeup of the company's workforce didn't match that of the community. So the assurance was given that there would be no quotas, then quotas were codified in it. Exceptions.

Bottom line: race is an exception to lots of things, and Ollie McClung, as well as that South Carolina barbecue restaurant guy, is a poster child for them. But that's not true for any individual refused service for some other reason. In fact, you see signs in many places reserving the right to refuse service to anyone, though, again, they wouldn't get away with it if it was racial.

Freedom of association is the right to assemble. It's got nothing to do with kicking someone out of a restaurant.

You seriously need to read up on freedom of association.
Freedom of association is the right to assemble when connected to the exercise of a civil right. For example, an early case related to a demand of the government on the Alabama chapter of the NAACP. The gummint demanded their membership roster, and the NAACP, in what just might be the last time they were right about anything, filed suit to prevent them from having to turn it over. So there was no literal assembly in question. It was a matter of associating together other than physical assembly. Now, it's true that I mischaracterized the employment example as freedom of assembly, but that doesn't change the fact that, in all but communist states, employment is at-will (previously mentioned exceptions apply, of course), and OJ or Casey Anthony could be fired--or ejected from a restaurant for any or no reason (other than race/sex/creed/etc. exceptions), as could Joe Pastrami (freakin' auto correct) were he still alive. If Pastrami demanded to know why, the manager might or might not choose to give him one, and if he does, he could say he doesn't want "your type" in here, and not being a minority, Joe would have no legal recourse, no way to claim illegal discrimination.

Senator Ben Nelson, once a popular man in Nebraska, is very unpopular there after his vote on Commie-care. He went into a pizza restaurant back home and he was booed rather vigorously. He and his party choose to skedaddle, but had they not, the owner could have booted him for any or no reason.

You're confusing a limitation of powers versus unalienable rights. Unalienable rights are rights which are inherent and cannot be transferred or taken away by anyone, including the government, but especially not individuals. You certainly don't have to allow any type of speech in your living room, but you cannot deny them to speak their mind under any and all circumstances outside of your living room. Restriction of powers prevents the government, or GUMMINT, if you like, from depriving individuals from their life or liberty, but that doesn't mean you can deprive someone of those rights simply because you are not the government.
If there are laws preventing me from doing X, then no. But in this case, I'm not putting Pastrami on trial, couldn't if I wanted to, so the legal protections embodied in the principle "Innocent until proven guilty" don't apply to me. The restrictions in the Bill of Rights are a charter of negative liberties on government and don't apply to me. It's not the Bill of Rights protections against depriving someone of life without due process that makes it illegal for one man to kill another; it's the law against murder. The law against murder has its roots in the same place, but I'm still not restricted by the Bill of Rights. The government is.

You can think all day long that someone is guilty, you can even voice that opinion, but you cannot take it upon yourself to deprive them of any of their rights because of what you think. The presumption of innocence in the law stems directly from the unalienable right of liberty, where the right to be left alone and not be persecuted without proof.
Their right to walk down the street, yes. The right for them to go into McDonald's and order a Big Mac absent the owner's or manager's objection, yes. But they don't have a right to be there over the manager's objection, nor do they have the right to be in AMonger's Deli and Bait Shop over my objection. That's called private property rights.

It's also part and parcel of the Golden Rule.
That's why I pointed out the issue of moral guilt. It's much like caring for the poor. God makes it clear that we are to be compassionate towards the poor, and He even set up specific ways that ancient Israel was to do so. But if someone wouldn't, there was no civil, temporal penalty. There was no magistrate making sure a farmer didn't harvest the corners of his field or making sure he wasn't preventing the poor from eating standing grain. If he didn't do what was expected of him, the penalty was eternal and spiritual. Same here. If I treat OJ Simpson or Casey Anthony like murderers, or Joe Pastrami like someone who let someone else get away with buggering boys (kind of hard since he's dead, but, you know), not letting 'em buy corned beef with a side of worms-- and I'm wrong --then I answer to a Higher Authority, meaning God, not government. My private property rights in my deli and bait shop mean I don't have to allow anyone in that I don't want in, other than the aforementioned exceptions. If they don't leave, then it's at bare minimum "refusing a request to leave," a simple misdemeanor, and could potentially rise to the level of trespassing, and that goes for the Portland cop, too.
I'm not sure why you are unable to incarcerate someone (deprive them of liberty) in the first place, but the restrictions of the State do, absolutely, apply to the individual, a well. The individual cannot deprive another individual of their unalienable rights without just cause.
Eating in my deli and bait shop is not a right, not for you, not for Pastrami, not for OJ Simpson. I can't have the gummint lock them up, but I don't have to sell them a sandwich, or haul their freight if I choose not to. Nor is being free from social approbation a right. Nor MUST I or society associate with someone. They can be shunned because we think they're guilty of that for which the government acquitted them. Again, a moral problem if we're wrong, but no government protection against it regardless.



--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 
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clcooper

Expert Expediter
any body that thinks JoePa did right .
bring you children and grand children to my place for a weekend . i live close to penn state . i will drop them off at the shower room with sandusky . and if he does any thing to them i will go tell Joe .i wont say anything to anybody else . oh the law even says i dont have to either . and as we all know you will be OK with that .
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"Their right to walk down the street, yes. The right for them to go into McDonald's and order a Big Mac absent the owner's or manager's objection, yes. But they don't have a right to be there over the manager's objection, nor do they have the right to be in AMonger's Deli and Bait Shop over my objection. That's called private property rights."

As someone who was in restaurant management for 16 years, I can tell you for a fact that the sign, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason" is meaningless. Restaurants with and without that sign have the same legal obligations and protections. With a publicly accessible restaurant (versus a private membership restaurant) the private property rights aren't as clear cut as you would like to believe. Again, you can only refuse service to someone on the grounds of a patron who detracts from the safety, welfare, and well-being of other patrons and the restaurant itself. That's the law, irrespective of any other property rights. I don't agree with it at all, as a the property owner should be able to conduct his business and protect his business and property any way he sees fit, but that's the way it is.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
"Their right to walk down the street, yes. The right for them to go into McDonald's and order a Big Mac absent the owner's or manager's objection, yes. But they don't have a right to be there over the manager's objection, nor do they have the right to be in AMonger's Deli and Bait Shop over my objection. That's called private property rights."

As someone who was in restaurant management for 16 years, I can tell you for a fact that the sign, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason" is meaningless. Restaurants with and without that sign have the same legal obligations and protections. With a publicly accessible restaurant (versus a private membership restaurant) the private property rights aren't as clear cut as you would like to believe. Again, you can only refuse service to someone on the grounds of a patron who detracts from the safety, welfare, and well-being of other patrons and the restaurant itself. That's the law, irrespective of any other property rights. I don't agree with it at all, as a the property owner should be able to conduct his business and protect his business and property any way he sees fit, but that's the way it is.

You're flat-out incorrect. Seen it and did it many, many times. And witnessed the cops explain it to someone as they gave him a trespass warning afterward. The manager says you must leave, out you go. And if the cops are summoned, the ejected patron is escorted out at the very least, and the cops 'splain it to him as he goes. That's what "refusing a request to leave" is.

Matter o' fact, it was those college kids who raised some of these objections. As the most vocal one was telling me, the restaurant was a publicly-traded company on the stock market, and, in his mind, that made us a public place, which is, I imagine, where your belief that patrons can't be ejected without cause originates. He was surprised in the end. Later, after having been ejected by the manager at the second spot across town, they called me at our place, I imagine with a tape recorder running, trying to get a "confession" out of me that I had used force against the one. I gave them, instead, a lesson in the law on refusing a request to leave, etc. I'm guessing they took the tape to the legal aid orifice on campus and were told they had no case.

There are some public accommodations, like libraries and such that have found they even have to allow the homeless to come in and hang out in the warmth, but a restaurant or other private business isn't the same thing.

Now think of all the annoying customers you wanted to eject but didn't think their behavior quite rose to the level of what you could say was endangering other patrons. Could have had them out and saved yourself the aggravation. Or, alternately, what state was this that interferes with your private property rights? Let me know so I can be sure and not go.

Don't you think that, if your interpretation of this is correct, the police in Portland would have done something about the cop being barred from that diner just because he's a cop?


You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 
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jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
AMonger said:
Don't you think that, if your interpretation of this is correct, the police in Portland would have done something about the cop being barred from that diner just because he's a cop?
The cop could return if he wanted, he chose to be the bigger person and not punch the little ____ in the head. He could return any time he wanted to. As I read the article he had not been issued a no trespass thingy. Oh I almost forgot the punk that asked/told him to leave did it because the homeless people that hang out in his rat hole were uncomfortable.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
You're flat-out incorrect.
Cite the case law then.

The Civil Rights Act guarantees "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin." Under Title II of the act it specifically prohibits "discrimination in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term 'private.'"

All of the States have since enacted additional laws that further expand these Civil Rights, such as discrimination against individuals based on unconventional dress, sexual preference, political affiliation, personal characteristics, geographical origin, physical attributes, and individual beliefs, thereby making any arbitrary discrimination illegal. If you are not a member of a protected class, then you can be discriminated against, but only if there is a "legitimate business reason" for doing so, and it must be articulable. You cannot be refused service or kicked out of an establishment for no reason. Not legally.

Most businesses, restaurants in particular, are primarily places of public accommodation. That means they are in business to accommodate the needs of the public. They actively invite and seek the patronage of the public and therefore are subject to the same anti-discrimination laws that protect workers seeking employment or promotion. There is the Refusal Clause, which allows one to refuse service for moral reasons, but those only apply to the medical field, not restaurants.

I used to do this for a living. I experienced it first hand. When you manage a restaurant at the intersection of Music Row and Skid Row or on Trinity Lane in Nashville, you have to be fully aware of what you can and cannot do. The same holds true for a restaurant in Toms River and Manasquan, NJ, Pittsburgh, PA, Cincinnati, OH, and Paducah, KY, all places I have managed restaurants. Some were franchied chains, but most were single-location, privately owned establishments. The law was very consistent in every location.

I once kicked a guy out for juggling his fork, steak knife and spoon while sitting in the booth. He was quite good, but this wasn't a stage, it was a restaurant. And juggling a steak knife represented not only a danger to him, but a danger to nearby patrons who were cringing with every flip. He was unreasonably freaking out the customers, and was a detriment to the business. I asked him to stop, he refused, so I kicked him out. The police came and he whined like a little girl, but when the police heard the reason they simply gave him the choice of leaving with the police or without the police, but leave he would.

I also tried to kick someone out because they stunk, a lot. But unless existing patrons ended up leaving due to his smell, I could not kick him out or refuse service, despite the fact that the waitresses working behind the counter nearly hurled chunks every time they had to walk past him. The police came and refused to remove him, stating that unless the waitresses were unable to do their job, or unless patrons actually complained, there was nothing they could do. Unfortunately is was in the middle of the night and the place was practically deserted, so there wasn't really anyone seated close enough to him to be affected by the smell.

You can refuse service only if there is a legitimate business reason, such as an unruly customer, one who disrupts other customers or the operation of the business, patrons who wish to be served just before or after closing, which would necessitate extra or overtime for employees. You can also refuse service if a paying customer brings in more non-paying customers that would take up more space than a single paying customer would be given, which happened a lot at one restaurant I worked at. For example, a paying customer brings in three non-paying customers, you cannot refuse service, since one or four can fit into a booth, but if they bring in 5 or 6 non-paying customers, since 6 or more would require more than the single booth required for one customer, you can refuse service to all.

I can give you countless examples of both people I kicked out and those which I could not. I've been to court representing the restaurant on both winning and losing sides. Does the guaranteed right to public access mean the business owner's private right to exclude is violated? For the most part, yes, with rare exceptions, as the courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations outweighs the individual liberties of the property owner.

Don't you think that, if your interpretation of this is correct, the police in Portland would have done something about the cop being barred from that diner just because he's a cop?
No, because the restaurant owner had a legitimate business concern, and voiced it to the officer when he did it. The Portland Police have been the headlines of some high profile shootings, and they have a history of harassing customers in or near the restaurant. Despite the cop's good intentions, his presence while in uniform was a distraction and disruption to the business. The officer was more than welcome to come back, but only while not wearing his uniform.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
The cop could return if he wanted, he chose to be the bigger person and not punch the little ____ in the head. He could return any time he wanted to. As I read the article he had not been issued a no trespass thingy. Oh I almost forgot the punk that asked/told him to leave did it because the homeless people that hang out in his rat hole were uncomfortable.

The cop can return, yes, because there has been no trespass warning. However, the owner could send a certified letter to the police chief banning all police not responding to emergency calls or not entering on official business from his establishment, or post it on the door, and it would be binding. But being the bigger person had nothing to do with it. When told to leave, he had to leave, or commit the crime of refusing a request to leave. I don't know if Oregon had that specific crime, but I'm sure they have something similar. Had he punched the owner in the had, that would, of choose, be a separate offense.

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You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 
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