Major loss in the battle against cheap freight!!

R

rangell218

Guest
if people kept hauling the cheap loads as has been happening but everyone keeps *****ing about the load pays but they keep hauling it so thats why the load pay is down because companies are not eating any part of the loss the drivers/owners are doing it for them, ask your self when a company sends you a load offer thats is low do you think they added or reduced there % of that load i have been told the companies are not paying good on this load but you never hear here is a load we took a % cut to help you with this load, they dont have to you guys out there kept the load pays down so good job kept hauling it the prices will continue to go down. if this posting offends you im sorry but its you that i am talking about.
 

miker

Seasoned Expediter
if people kept hauling the cheap loads as has been happening but everyone keeps *****ing about the load pays but they keep hauling it so thats why the load pay is down because companies are not eating any part of the loss the drivers/owners are doing it for them, ask your self when a company sends you a load offer thats is low do you think they added or reduced there % of that load i have been told the companies are not paying good on this load but you never hear here is a load we took a % cut to help you with this load, they dont have to you guys out there kept the load pays down so good job kept hauling it the prices will continue to go down. if this posting offends you im sorry but its you that i am talking about.
the message here is correct, but might I suggest that before clicking the submit button, you re read to yourself what you have just typed to see if anyone can understand it as it is written.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
I was able to understand the jist of his post. He makes a huge point. Hopefully if you are hauling for a reduced rate the carrier is taking less as well.

I wouldn't worry as much about proper English, as his point was made. Maybe he didn't have as much fancy book-learning as you. :)
 

TeamCaffee

Administrator
Staff member
Owner/Operator
I am confused now on who is hauling cheap freight? I think everyone on this thread has mentioned they say no to what is their cheap freight.

Each of us has a different base line on what is considered cheap freight it is not an across the board number. If you continue to say yes to freight that is below your base line sooner or later you will not be able to hold your business together.
 

miker

Seasoned Expediter
I was able to understand the jist of his post. He makes a huge point. Hopefully if you are hauling for a reduced rate the carrier is taking less as well.

I wouldn't worry as much about proper English, as his point was made. Maybe he didn't have as much fancy book-learning as you. :)

as I stated , I understand the message. What I am stating is that sometimes one needs to step back and read something that they have written ,as if they are reading something that another person wrote to ensure that it is readable, I have no intention of slamming someones grammar, because believe I suck at it, but reading something before I click submit is something that I have found helpful for others to understand what it is exactly that I'm trying to get out. That's all and nothing more
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
I am confused now on who is hauling cheap freight? I think everyone on this thread has mentioned they say no to what is their cheap freight.

Each of us has a different base line on what is considered cheap freight it is not an across the board number. If you continue to say yes to freight that is below your base line sooner or later you will not be able to hold your business together.

Good question.

Other than those with well planned cash reserves like A-team, perhaps they are at home watching tv with a for sale sign in the truck?

I think the truth might be more along the lines of reality. That we have all run cheap freight at one time or another. As for us, we have utilized "cheap" freight as a relocation tool. Not as a normal business practice.

My point at the beginning of this post was that as the load opportunities are sent out to broader geographic areas they are able to contact more drivers at the same time. Of those drivers, someone will be able and willing to utilize that cheap freight to serve thier own purpose whatever that may be. This is an excellent tool for the carrier to get the load dispatched quickly and at the rate they determine.
 

debadee

Seasoned Expediter
Going on 2 yrs with the FED, not WG. I have been on the phone 3 times this week, asking whats up with the deep discount load offers/opps we are getting. We are O/O and we have a truck payment. We did not hire on as company drivers and cannot continue to operate with these load offers. I realize the economy sucks, last year when fuel was high, that sucked too, but we still made it. When a dispatcher offers a load at 600.00 with no takes, she then offers 800.00 with no takes, she then will offer 1000.00 to get it covered. Trust me they are not going back to the shipper to ask for more money each time. They are making the 1000.00 to begin with and maybe more, they just want to see who the dufus will be that allows them to make a very good profit by hauling it for 600.00 and they sure must be a lot of dufus's out there. I will lose my truck at this rate, so I guess its time to find another carrier, any suggestions.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I believe based on your post, you answered your own question.
 

Scuba

Veteran Expediter
Cheap freight as a tool???? a A hammer is cheaper than a socket set would you use it to make adjustments on your truck??? There is cheap freight because people foolishly take it to run home or whatever the excuse is but remember the next time you need to book your own load that broker is counting on someone looking for a fuel cost load to get them home. So when you complain about cheap freight remember you are the problem not the solution .
 

Texpress

Seasoned Expediter
Great thread for a new guy. When you cut through all the "towing the company line", the subject matter has been well represented from several different point of fews. But we seem to be getting redundant so lets recap..

1. There's always someone that will haul cheap freight, IF it may take them home, or move them from a dead area. To do so would not make them a bad business owner.

2. It's obvious that the more trucks a carrier has the more availability they have for their shippers. It's also obvious that the carrier has no loss associated with a truck or 10 idling at the "J". Concludes that the carrier will continue to recruit because they have a minimum investment, per unit, compared to the possible return of said unit.

3. The more toys you have on your truck the more potential to make $$ you have, as well as the better chance to stay close to the freight lanes. (Refer, climate, Lift, etc..)

4. The more access's to freight you have the more potential you have. The more access's to freight you have the better chance you may have at getting home and/or getting to a better freight lane without having to haul cheap freight?

This has obviously given me another question to discuss with recruiters although.. I still haven't gone down and spent the night in my car at the Walmart. :p
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
Okay,
There is one term that some members keep using over and over and that is the term "PROFITABILITY"

We are told that you must know your every expense in order to be able to determine at what exact rate you can run a load.
One member even claims to know their expenses and profitabilty to the "penny".
Of course, that is impossible because every business owner knows that there are variable expenses. These expenses can only be estimated and averaged out over a period of time.

The readers of these posts are led to believe that you can determine your expenses to the penny. Then you can translate that to a rate per run. Then you can either accept an offer that meets or exceeds that amount, or you should sit and live off of your cash reserves until the right offer comes in.

Question: If your magic number is $1.50 (just for example sake) and the offer comes in at $1.30. You refuse because if they don't pay you don't play. Well,then you sit there for 24 more hours while your expenses continue to accrue. Is this really the best system???
If you accept this load at $1.30 and move to better freight area and your next run is $1.80 per mile then you are money ahead.

The theory above is almost like saying: If we can't make a profit in our store today I am just going to close it down.

Should we not look at things over a longer time period. When I look at some of our good months, there may be what some refer to as cheap freight thrown in there; however, the overall monthly revenue is increased. A yearly picture may even give a better perspective.

Also, what are these teams using as their "profitable" amount? One penny over expenses can be deemed profit. Are they including all home expenses, savings and retirement?

Sorry to be picking at details, but this thread must be confusing for the "Newbies" that are just looking into this business and trying to develope some type of business plan.
 

timothy_flood

Seasoned Expediter
Maybe a poll should be taken on this subject where everyone can chip in and take. Let's say set a rate scale that people will and won't take. Set it up for a week and get the results. Maybe then, people could if they wanted, send the results into their own carriers and let them know what folks think. I know, probably wouldn't change things, but would be interesting to know what people out here are willing to take, not take, at certain certain rate levels.
 

Texpress

Seasoned Expediter
U might want to rethink #3 before buying a truck .


Thanks moose, No I'm just looking at a cargo van at the "surface level". <<-new word for dave) I'd go as far as to say that all the truck toys in the world wont help if you don't have freight. Another view would be that having all the toys gives me more opportunities to get freight. This could just come down to the chicken or the egg.

Thanks,
dave
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Texpress offers a summary. In matters like this I suggest that there will always be more thinking to do once you get to the point where a summary is possible. Expediting is an open-ended business where yesterday's events, decisions and results may be a good guide for today's, and or may or may not be a good guide for tomorrow's.


1. There's always someone that will haul cheap freight, IF it may take them home, or move them from a dead area. To do so would not make them a bad business owner.

However, going to a dead area too often and using cheap freight to get out, and going home too often, will contribute to business failure. Don't lull yourself into believeing that everything will be OK if you use the cheap-freight crutch to move around. Consider the wounds you inflict by going to dead areas in the first place and going home too often.

2. It's obvious that the more trucks a carrier has the more availability they have for their shippers. It's also obvious that the carrier has no loss associated with a truck or 10 idling at the "J". Concludes that the carrier will continue to recruit because they have a minimum investment, per unit, compared to the possible return of said unit.

That is a popular notion among truckers but if you think it through, is it really true? If it costs a carrier nothing to add another truck, what keeps the carrier from adding one thousand more? Carriers continually struggle to make their fleets "right sized" to their objectives. The costs of recruiting new trucks, servicing existing trucks and retaining existing trucks is high. A carrier that adds two new trucks for every old truck it loses will be a carrier that will soon be broke. There is overhead associated with every truck in a carrier's fleet. That fact is not often recognized by those who say it costs nothing for carriers to add or replace trucks.

Also worth considering is the value of "good" contractors vs. the unknown value of new contractors. A good contractor is one that can be relied upon to serve the customer, abide by carrier policies, represent the company well, minimize carrier liability exposure by being safe and having no freight damage claims, etc. A supply/demand policy of running an oversize fleet and replacing those that leave brings in costs and risks associated with adding unproven contractors to the mix.

3. The more toys you have on your truck the more potential to make $$ you have, as well as the better chance to stay close to the freight lanes. (Refer, climate, Lift, etc..)

As one who runs a fully-equipped truck, I would not put it quite that way. The first part is true. The more kinds of freight your truck equipment and credentials can expose you to, the better off you are. Regarding freight lanes, the advantage is not keeping you close to them but greatly expanding your reach from a remote area or even a busy one.

Example 1: A profitable load in which we deadheaded 1,000 miles from Chicago to pick up a load in New England and drive it to the West Coast.

Example 2: A profitable load on Thankgiving weekend in which from Portland, Oregon, we received an offer to pick up in Arizona and deliver in Pennsylvania.

Example 3: A profitable load in which we deadheaded 1,000 miles from Denver to pick up in Washington state and deliver on the East Coast.

Examples 1, 2 and 3 are not typical runs. I share them to illustrate my point about extended range.

If we were offered a load today to go to say Portland, Oregon (a dead area according to some), and if the money was right, we would not hesitate to take the load. We believe (note the word believe) that our equipment and credentials would get us out of Portland and that we would have no need to use "cheap" freight to do it. This belief has served us well in the past and we rely on it today. Whether it will hold up tomorrow is anyone's guess. As things stand now, as long as it keeps working, we will stick with it.


4. The more access's to freight you have the more potential you have. The more access's to freight you have the better chance you may have at getting home and/or getting to a better freight lane without having to haul cheap freight?

I would add that the more often you go home, even if you live in a good express center, the more you hurt your business. It takes time and miles to get home. Expediters do not make their money at home. They make it out on the road. If you use your full-featured truck or even backhaul freight to get you home, you are oriented to home. The money is out here, not back there.

Having a truck that provides most of the comforts of home on the road, and living a property-free life in which getting home every so often is not necessary makes it easier to stay out longer and minimize our expenses.

This has obviously given me another question to discuss with recruiters although.. I still haven't gone down and spent the night in my car at the Walmart. :p

Another thing you might try is to not use your bathroom at home for a week. Limit yourself to public bathrooms, which may mean driving to one when you need to.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Okay,
There is one term that some members keep using over and over and that is the term "PROFITABILITY"

We are told that you must know your every expense in order to be able to determine at what exact rate you can run a load.
One member even claims to know their expenses and profitabilty to the "penny".
Of course, that is impossible because every business owner knows that there are variable expenses. These expenses can only be estimated and averaged out over a period of time.

It is not impossible at all if you track every penny you take in and spend. You are right to draw the distinction between fixed and variable costs. Fixed costs are easy. You know what they will be each month (at least until a price increase on something like Qualcomm fees or insurance is announced).

Variable costs require judgement but knowing your variable costs numbers is not impossible. And the better your judgement, the more accurate your price point can be.

Consider tires, a variable cost. When we bought our truck new in 2006, we had no idea how long the rear tires (8 tires, tandem axles) would last. The cost of the first set of tires was included in the price of the truck. Having now replaced those 8 tires, we have a pretty good idea of how many miles we can expect from them. By looking at the now-known miles number, the number of miles we expect to drive and the time period over which the tires can be expected to last, we know that those 8 tires add $x per mile to our variable costs of running the truck.

We do not know how many miles we will run next month or next year. But for the purposes seting our price point and determining profitability, we have sufficient information to make load-acceptance decisions today.

Note that our price point is not fixed. It changes as our costs change. As fuel came down in price over the last several months, so did our price point. As substantial fuel card discounts became available through our carrier, our price point went down. Out ability to buy tires at a HUGE discount through a carrier discount program enables us to build our low tire cost into our price point.

I noticed in another post that TeamCaffee considers the difference in costs for running on the East Cost versus places where open road driving enhances fuel economy and minimizes tolls. We do not factor regions into our price point as they do, but their doing it shows yet another way in which variable costs can be known and used to set your price point.

The readers of these posts are led to believe that you can determine your expenses to the penny. Then you can translate that to a rate per run. Then you can either accept an offer that meets or exceeds that amount, or you should sit and live off of your cash reserves until the right offer comes in.

The recession offically began in December, 2008. In no month since then have we had to dip into our cash reserves. That day may lie ahead but so far, our cash reserves remain untouched. Freight has slowed. It has not stopped. Our ace in the hole is the debt-free, property-free life we live.

The most recent data on employment, sales, manufacturing and housing show that the recession is not only getting worse but getting worse at a faster rate. More than one respected economist is saying the economy is in free fall.

The day may come that freight slows to the point where we must tap into our reserves to meet current expenses. If that happens, how long will we stay in a money-losing endeavor? One month? Three? Twelve? That is a question each expediter must answer for him or her self.

Question: If your magic number is $1.50 (just for example sake) and the offer comes in at $1.30. You refuse because if they don't pay you don't play. Well,then you sit there for 24 more hours while your expenses continue to accrue. Is this really the best system???

I don't know. It is the system we use and it works for us.

If you accept this load at $1.30 and move to better freight area and your next run is $1.80 per mile then you are money ahead.

You are correct, IF that next $1.80 pe mile run is there waiting for you in the better area and there are no trucks ahead of you to take it. Your comment goes to individual load acceptance decisions, made every time you deliver and look ahead to the next run. Some would say the decision is made before you accept the run that takes you to a slow area.

We have taken a reduced-profit load for the very reasons you describe. Three times in five years we have taken money-losing loads; once to get home, once to get to our carrier headquarters for training, and once to accept the carrier's pay to relocate to a different express center.

Every now and then, but not often, we take a low-profit run instead of a full-profit run to relocate to a better area. But such runs are not readily available. When sitting in western Kansas, it's not like you you see three low-profit runs going to Chicago and a full-profit run going someplace else.

Even if our carrier's Home Run program was expanded to allow us to broker outside loads to relocate, there is a disadvantage to doing that. Read my reply to Texpres's point number 3 above, in which I talk about the extended range a fully-equipped truck has.

A while ago, we were in Tucson on Friday night and a bunch of White Glove trucks were stacked up ahead of us. Tucson is not a busy freight area. A weekend load would be unlikely. A Monday load would be unlikely because the other trucks would receive the offers ahead of us. Decision: Deadhead to Los Angeles where our freight prospects would be better.

Now, if we put self-brokered freight on the truck to get from Tucson to Los Angeles (assuming freight can be found that would immediately take us from where we were to where we wanted to be), that takes our truck out of service and off the board. The minute we left Tucson, we were closer to LA than all the trucks we left behind. If there was a load that reached out from LA, we would be more likely to get it than them, because we would be closer to the pickup. We would also get into LA before the Monday inbound trucks arrived and have more dwell time than them in the dispatch order ... as long as we were in service and available. Putting self-brokered freight on our truck (even if FedEx allowed it) commits our truck to that freight and not to positioning ourselves for the next full-profit load.

The deadhead costs of moving from Tucson to LA must of course be considered. And they are. Every penny we spend on the truck is factored into our cost per mile to operate the truck, including deadheading to better freight areas. Those costs are part of our annual costs and show up in our daily costs by dividing the annual by 365. Naturally, we try to decrease deadhead costs by deadheading as little as possible.

The theory above is almost like saying: If we can't make a profit in our store today I am just going to close it down.

Exactly! And that is one of the great things about an expedite business. You don't have to keep a store open to keep hundreds or thousands of customers in the habbit of coming in. If you need or want to shut down for a day, week or month, you are totally free to do so and your carrier will understand. Carriers also understand that people decline loads for all sorts of reasons. That's why they give awards (Four Star) if you say "no" less than 30% of the time. How many other jobs do you know where you can tell "the boss" no 30% of the time and win an award, or say no 40% of the time and still be valued as a team player?

Should we not look at things over a longer time period. When I look at some of our good months, there may be what some refer to as cheap freight thrown in there; however, the overall monthly revenue is increased. A yearly picture may even give a better perspective.

Absolutely. Our daily costs are determined by dividing our annual costs by 365. Our monthly costs are determined by dividing our annual costs by 12. The exception is fuel. In determining our price point to run the next load, we look at our daily costs and the specific price per gallon we paid for the fuel that is now in the tank. By the day, and to the penny, as fuel rises and falls, so does our price to run.

Also, what are these teams using as their "profitable" amount? One penny over expenses can be deemed profit. Are they including all home expenses, savings and retirement?

I am not going to state our decided-upon profit margin here, but do understand that I am not using the word "profitable" to mean one penny above breakeven. Our carrier runs its business on a healthy profit margin. So do we.

Different people take different approaches to including or not including personal expenses in their business expenses. For example, if you want to pay yourself $10,000 a year for retirement benefits and put that money in a retirement plan each year, do you factor that $10,000 in as a business expense? Or do you wait to see what your business profits are, consider retirement savings a personal expense and put the $10,000 away out of your profits, and after all business expenses are paid?

There is a lot to think about here. If you include the $10,000 as a business expense, your cost per mile will be higher than that of an expediter who has no reitirement plan, and you may price yourself out of the market. If you exclude the $10,000 from your business expenses, you may not have enough profit to put $10,000 into your plan at all.

The answer depends on many things, like whether you are running your business as a corporation and pay yourself as an employee and the corporation has a retirement plan set up for its employees (you), or whether you are just out here because the alternative is to have a boss you could not stand, and if you can put some money away for retirement after expenses are paid, that would be nice.

Whether you are operating your business as a sole proprietor, partnership, corporation or LLC, it is up to you to provide "employee" benefits or not. Do you count the cost of your health insurance as a business expense or as a personal expense paid from business profits?

Questions like that are most easily answered if you have specific business and personal goals set down in writing, and then discussed with the team of people you gather to support you in your business (insurance agents, accountants, lawyers, etc.).

Sorry to be picking at details, but this thread must be confusing for the "Newbies" that are just looking into this business and trying to develope some type of business plan.

Developing a business plan is no small task. You are asking good questions and making good points.
 
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broker

Seasoned Expediter
ATeam, first let me say how I admire you for where you are today in life.
I'm sure much sacrifice, along with very good business planning, has got you to where you are today.
I say all this so you do not take this reply the wrong way.


When you gave advice on here and would inform us how these times do not hurt you as much as others, I was always wondering what you were doing that the rest of us were not.
How could you be so different from us.

Now I know. You are not like the rest of us.
We are not debt free and property free like you.
This is like comparing apples to oranges.
Your lifestyle and needs are very different than the average Joe.
You can do a cost spread sheet that does not include half of what a normal household would have.
So, now I know "the rest of the story"

I again congratulate you and the wife. You both should be very proud.
However, now when I read your advice, I will take it with a grain of salt.
My World (and most others) is much different than yours.
We do not have an "ACE IN THE HOLE"
BIG JOHN
 
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CharlesD

Expert Expediter
Limiting the number of times a load is brokered would go a long way toward improving the rates the driver is seeing.
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
A while ago, we were in Tucson on Friday night and a bunch of White Glove trucks were stacked up ahead of us. Tucson is not a busy freight area. A weekend load would be unlikely. A Monday load would be unlikely because the other trucks would receive the offers ahead of us. Decision: Deadhead to Los Angeles where our freight prospects would be better.

. . . . The minute we left Tucson, we were closer to LA than all the trucks we left behind. If there was a load that reached out from LA, we would be more likely to get it than them, because we would be closer to the pickup.

Thanks for the well thought out responses.

I just want to comment on the example above so that other drivers are clear on how that strategy works before they try it and become disappointed.

One of the many criteria the load opportunity system uses is "the ability of the truck to make the pick up". In the example above, any one of the trucks sitting in the Tucson express center with more dwell time could accept a load opportunity (assuming they received it) loading Monday a.m. in Los Angeles.
They would be awarded the load ahead of A-Team eventhough A-Team may be 300 miles closer.
Why? They have more dwell time coupled with the ability to pick up the load on time.
This is one of the things we have learned the hard way and confirmed with Contractor Relations, so keep that in mind when planning your moves.

Hope that helps someone.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I would say very few would want to sacrifice and sell everything they have to do it the way Phil has.
But he does show it can be done that way. But I do think for the vast majority, it isn't a path they likely will follow.
I am not a subscriber to a business plan per see for the sake of one truck. My personal opinion is that too many things change making it lack any value.
A simple personal budget gets one to the same place.
I do agree however of a more simple approach. Know exactly what it costs to move your truck. Or CPM. Everything else flows from the number. As Phil posted, it always changes.
As to profitability, pretty simple again.
Whatever money you put in, its what are you getting back. Could be 10, 20, 30 percent, everyone has their benchmark.
As posted before, I have a opposing view on brokering loads.
Phil is going on the assumption he might get called. I go under the assumption of guaranteed money. No right or wrong way. Just different approaches.
 
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