Jaw dropping - How the "religion of peace" treats its daughters

[RLENT]

BTW, just in case you don't understand what it was that I meant when I said:

" .... that the US has refused to take any responsibility for whatsoever ...."

What I mean is that the US government, after having dropped enormous amounts anti-personnel munitions on a neutral sovereign nation that we were not at war with, and which are now which are now endangering a civilian population, could have taken some responsibility (however small) to clean up the mess that we made ...

Instead we have done nothing .... simply because, to do anything, would have been tantamount to an admission of guilt .....

Such a position is highly irresponsible ..... and is, of course .... morally bankrupt .......

 

[chefdennis]

war is hell , people die, even women and children......

 

[RLENT]

war is hell , people die, even women and children......

Exactly - that is why one should work to avoid it, if at all possible.

War is often just another form of collective insanity ......

 

[chefdennis]

the world will have war as long as there are 2 people living on this planet...

 

[layoutshooter]

I'll cite the particular source I used for my post - with the full understanding that it then leaves it open for you (or someone else) to claim it's the Commies, or some other bogey-man enemy (real or imagined) that are behind the estimates:

Nonviolence International Southeast Asia

But the rather gruesome fact remains: that there are numerous sources (some of them fairly unbiased - like the ICRC) for estimates of the number cluster bombs used in SEA - and the estimates vary ...... most of the ones I've read about estimate the unexploded ordinance remaining on the ground in the high tens of millions ... some estimates - like the one I quoted - are in excess of of 100 million .....

BTW, apparently 60% of the victims of unexploded ordnance in SEA are children ..... I guess this is what you could call "exporting democracy" ........

And some actually wonder why we are viewed so fondly throughout the world ....

I wonder if North Viet Nam and their Soviet Puppet Masters ever acknowleged THEIR sins? I think not. I Wonder why we are SO bad and those who were part of the MURDER of over 100 MILLION are not looked at in the same or WORSE way?

War is NOT pretty, yeah there may or may NOT be that much un-exploded ordinace left out there. That pales in the light of what those "Commies" or "boogy men" as you call them did. They tried to enslave the ENTIRE region. RAPE, MURDER and TORTURE were their favorite tools. Don't even begin to lecture me on how bad our military or country is. You look at the REAL bad guys last century, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and their sattilittes. Red China, North Korea, North Viet Nam and on and on. Together THEY account for the 100 MILLION MURDERED HUMAN BEINGS!! NOT THE U.S.!!

Those ARE the REAL facts!! No matter what William Ayers or his ilk say. You are right, your sorces are VERY biased and most likely lying. The "left" is famous for that. Just look at Barry and Co. Remember HE AND HIS FRIENDS BACKED THOSE WHO DID THE MURDERS!!

And it STILL continues to this day!! North Korea is still a murderous bunch. Russia is moving into Central and South America, building a navel base in Syria and making noises about re-arming Cuba. Just look at what the "left" has done in Burma and Tibet and people say the WE are the PROBLEM? Give me a break. It WILL repeat. MILLIONS more will be murdered by the "left". It is VERY likely that you will see it HERE as well.

I make NO excuses for my role in fighting that scurge all those years. I take PRIDE in it!! I will fight it again if needed, even at my age. WE were NOT wrong. It is just a sorry shame that so many want to believe what they saw on the nightly news. Pravda takes pride in putting all that out on our networks.

Have those "Peace" PEOPLE go and get the REAL bad guys to "take responsibility" YEAH RIGHT. They are either part of that bunch or would be killed by them if they wern't.

 

[RLENT]

I wonder if North Viet Nam and their Soviet Puppet Masters ever acknowleged THEIR sins? I think not.

Ahhh .... so let me get this straight: essentially what you are saying is that, in this respect, we are just as bad as they are - because we have engaged in basically the same conduct (the denial of, or failure to acknowledge, the sins)

Is that about it .... did I get it right ?

Some folks just don't have enough nards to actually look at evil - any and all evil - and see it for what it actually is .... and most particularly evil that they themselves have possibly participated in (in some cases, perhaps unknowingly or unwittingly) ....

Thankfully, in a select few cases, there are individuals (including "Nam vets) that are taking responsibility for what they either participated in, or was done in their name. Sadly, it is far rarer than it should be.

I Wonder why we are SO bad and those who were part of the MURDER of over 100 MILLION are not looked at in the same or WORSE way?

BY WHO EXACTLY ?

Certainly not by me ...... I'm quite happy to condemn those butchers on the Left to the same (or an even greater) degree, with just as much vigor as I do the butchers and warmongers here among us in the US .....

Either way you cut it - such conduct as we are discussing here was, and is, wrong ..... on either side.

It's the conduct that matters - the ideology used to justify the conduct is entirely irrelevant ..... unless one perhaps one doesn't believe in the concepts of right and wrong .....

War is NOT pretty, yeah there may or may NOT be that much un-exploded ordinace left out there.

So how much do you think is a reasonable estimate ?

Do you have any info from what you would consider "reliable sources" as to the estimates of unexploded ordnance still lying on the field ?

At what amount specifically, do you feel the US government, and we as a people (for those actions done in our name), should bear some responsibility for cleaning up the mess that was left ?

Or do you just feel that "it isn't our problem" ? .... despite the fact that our government were the ones that caused the ordnance to be put there (a position that would be a utterly irresponsible IMNSHO)

That pales in the light of what those "Commies" or "boogy men" as you call them did. They tried to enslave the ENTIRE region. RAPE, MURDER and TORTURE were their favorite tools.

So please tell me: how does the sins of one, excuse the sins of another ?

Are you advancing the position that somehow two "wrongs" make a "right" ?

You know, it never fails to crack me up - the degree to which some will go in trying to immediately point the finger at someone else ...... in an effort to deflect attention and to justify or minimize either the sins of themselves, or the "side" which they perceive themselves to be on .....

If that's the best you got, you might as well file for (moral) bankruptcy and just be done with it ....

Don't even begin to lecture me on how bad our military or country is.

I wasn't - this is a confusion many folks often have - they confuse the military, or the government with the country ...... they are not the same thing ....

(This is possibly somewhat my fault - I used "US" where I should have used "US government" - noted and corrected in my original posts)

You look at the REAL bad guys last century, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and their sattelites. Red China, North Korea, North Viet Nam and on and on. Together THEY account for the 100 MILLION MURDERED HUMAN BEINGS!! NOT THE U.S.!!

That's quite true - and I condemn them with you, with the vigor and the same equally strong voice.

However, having said that, anyone that maintains that the US government has no innocent blood on it's hands is a fool ...... or worse yet: a knowing and willing participant ....

(The Soviets have also used cluster munitions - in both the 1st and 2nd Chechen wars and Georgia - their use of them is just as despicable as ours ....)

Those ARE the REAL facts!!

Yup - they likely are ..... but, problem is, they ain't the only REAL facts .....

No matter what William Ayers or his ilk say.

Well, I really have no idea what William Ayers or his ilk (whoever they are ?) would say ..... sorry, not a fan ....

But this I do know: if you believe that anyone who would question the actions and conduct of our government are automatically a this .... or a that .... you have a fairly un-American view of what it means to be an American citizen ....

In fact, it seems to me that you yourself spend quite a bit of time on here doing exactly that - questioning and criticizing both our current, and former, officials in their conduct of governance ....

I can't imagine what it must be like to be so conflicted .....

You are right, your sources are VERY biased

I'm quite sure they are - like many, many others, they likely don't believe that such weapons, when deployed in the manner that they were, are moral.

and most likely lying.

Based on what ? ..... just cause YOU say so ?

And that's also probably a faked photo in the Times article I'm linking to immediately below right ?

Cluster Bombs of the Secret War

BTW, you got any real evidence of that lying - or are ya just popping off in defense of something that you possibly participated in, either directly or indirectly, as a way to absolve your own guilt and culpability ?

I would rather imagine that I could come up with sources till the cows come home ..... and it wouldn't matter one iota to you .... it would just be part of some vast Communist conspiracy ...... or some other "enemy of the state" .....

It couldn't possibly be that there are few folks in this world that, as a matter of conscience, find the use of such weapons to be immoral .... and see fit to report on it. As far as I know, being a Commie isn't required .....

The "left" is famous for that.

I wasn't aware that the International Committee of the Red Cross was a considered to be a particularly "leftist" organization ....

Just look at Barry and Co. Remember HE AND HIS FRIENDS BACKED THOSE WHO DID THE MURDERS!!

Well interestingly enough - while I am not a fan of Obama by any stretch of the imagination (largely opposed to most everything he stands for and/or believes in) - it does appear that occasionally he does do something I do agree with (as is the case with most politicians - regardless of which side of the aisle they are on):

US: Cluster Bomb Exports Banned

While it's a start, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough ....

And it STILL continues to this day!! North Korea is still a murderous bunch. Russia is moving into Central and South America, building a navel base in Syria and making noises about re-arming Cuba. Just look at what the "left" has done in Burma and Tibet

Yeah ................. and that excuses the immoral acts which our government has engaged in exactly how ?

and people say the WE are the PROBLEM? Give me a break.

Nope - sorry - no can do.

I never said that "WE" are the problem - but "WE" (or at least some portion of "WE") are certainly a part of the problem ....

The real problem is when such anti-social or psychopathic individuals manage to get themselves into positions of power .... often undetected .... the amount of damage that they can wreck is incalculable ..... given the fact that such folks often pass for "normal" and then add the fact the sheeple are way too easily (mis)led .... and it's indeed a deadly combination ..... often on a regional, and sometimes nearly a global, scale ....

I make NO excuses for my role in fighting that scurge all those years. I take PRIDE in it!! I will fight it again if needed, even at my age. WE were NOT wrong.

Sorry - but your last statement above is totally wrong.

If you had said something like" "we were not wrong to fight and oppose communism" you would have my agreement - but for you to say: "WE were NOT wrong" as a blanket statement is so easily disprovable as to be .... just laughable.

The United States government has engaged in all manner of wrong-doing - both in terms of it's conduct with foreign sovereign nations, and the innocent peoples thereof, and in it's conduct with it's own people - a fact that you have repeatedly asserted on this very forum.

That is not to say that there haven't been governments that were far, far worse however ..... but tell me - what kind of a moral argument is this:

"I am (we are) much better than them ..... they committed far more murders than we did ...."

It is just a sorry shame that so many want to believe what they saw on the nightly news. Pravda takes pride in putting all that out on our networks.

I don't often watch the nightly news - and trust me - whenever I do, it is with an extremely jaundiced eye.

But then I have pretty much the same jaundiced eye when it comes to anything that the government (or former government officials) is pushing either ...

As to Pravda ..... my subscription lapsed awhile back and I haven't bothered to renew ....

Have those "Peace" PEOPLE go and get the REAL bad guys to "take responsibility" YEAH RIGHT. They are either part of that bunch or would be killed by them if they wern't.

If you believe that anyone who would actively work for peace, who is in favor of peace as opposed to war, is somehow automatically a Commie or Leftist .... well, we are probably very lucky indeed that you no longer hold a post in government, or the (so-called) intelligence services ......

BTW, you can knock off the attempts to paint me as some sort of leftist in your posts anytime now .... I ain't ..... and besides, you really ain't that good at it anyways

 

[RLENT]

BTW, just in case you are not up to actually looking at and reading the full TimesOnline article (takes some nuts, I know) that I linked to above, allow me to quote from it:

"Between 1964 and 1973 when the Secret War was abandoned, US planes flew 580,000 missions and dropped two million tones of bombs on Laos – a third more than they used on Nazi Germany. These included 277 million cluster bomblets. Assuming a failure rate of 30 per cent, 84 million of these are still lying in the ground. These, at least, are what the US owns up to – Lao government officials estimate that the true figure may be double."

Dunno who or what his "source" was on the US aspect .... but I'd guess that it is likely that it has been admitted to by the US government, or an official thereof, at some point or another ..... if you really want to know, you could email him.

Sorta looks like the numbers I gave could be on the low side ....

BTW, I haven't even brought up our use of them in Korea, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq (in multiple conflicts).... or the fact that we equipped the Israelis with them - they used them in 1978, 1982, and 2006 in Lebanon ..... violating their agreement with us on the restrictions of usage .... they dumped over 4 million of them into Lebanon in 2006 in the last 72 hours of fighting ..... wow ....

But hey, you just keep on goin' .... I got no shortage of material if ya want to continue the discussion ......

 

[layoutshooter]

I have NEVER excused anything. I just said that I question the sorces. We would NOT been in Viet Nam had the Soviet not been there. Just as in Korea. Should we have sat back and let Germany and Japan take over the world? We sat back and allowed the murders in Soviet Eastern Europe. That TOO is a sin.

There are only two choices, stop them or let it occure. It is occuring in Tibet and Burman now. It is spreading in Central and South America, now. Talking will NOT stop them. It is spreading because we are weak.

Staying strong is the answer. Be so strong that they don't move in the first place. That takes 2 things, the army and the toys they need and the will to use them if pushed. THEN the stuff will stop. DO as we do now and the "gas chambers" will start up again.

If you don't know who Ayers is you must be a lot younger than I. The "Weather Underground"? 60's "Peace" group? They went around bombing, killing, throwing sailors down elevator shafts. He is now a college professor. Praised the 9/11 attackers and and said he wished he had done more violence than he did. Obama's freind.

My son feels much like you. He believes that we should NOT have fought WWII or ANY war. He believes it is better to just let someone kill you. I keep telling him to ask the 12 million that Hitler killed or the 20-25 million that Stalin killed it they felt like their deaths improved the world. He can't ask them, they are just DEAD!!

Don't get me wrong, there are many things that we do that either are wrong or went wrong. I don't make excuses. It you have a bettter way to stop the garbage, the mass murders, the enslavement of entire countries I am all ears. Start with Burma and Tibet and let me know how it goes.

 

[Pilgrim]

Well, that's a showstopper. No sharia law in my neighborhood.

"I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself. "
- Alexis de Tocqueville

Even in 1843, I believe Alexis was on to something.

 

[atlas1220]

B. Might say a little bit about your ability to understand and comprehend if you think I did make that claim ......

Exactly.......

The perils of losing one's grip on reality

 

[RLENT]

Even in 1843, I believe Alexis was on to something.

Yes - I think he truly was - although certainly not in the passage you quote above.

The following seems to be a much better fit to the actual facts on the ground at present, as it were:

"All free people are proud of themselves, but national pride takes different forms. The Americans, in their relations with strangers, are impatient of the least criticism, and absolutely insatiable for praise. The slightest congratulation pleases them, but the most extravagant eulogium is not enough to satisfy them; they are all the time touting for your praise, and if you are slow to give it they begin praising themselves.

It is as if they were doubtful of their own merit. Their vanity is not only hungry, but anxious and envious. It gives nothing, and asks insistently. It is both supplicant and pugnacious.

If I tell an American that his country is a fine one, he replies, "It is the finest in the world." If I admire the liberty which it enjoys, he answers, "There are few people worthy of such liberty." I remark on the purity of manners in the United States, and he says, "Yes, a stranger who knows the corruption of other nations must indeed be astonished at us."

At length I leave him to the contemplation of his country and of himself, but he presently runs after me, and will not go away until I have repeated it all over again.

It is a kind of patriotism that worries even those who honour it."

Yes indeed ..... Alexis truly did at least know us fairly well (if not others) .... and clearly understood at least one of the seven deadlies .... apparently unlike the eventual inhabitants of the nascent nation he wrote about long ago .....

Actually it's pretty funny that you would quote de Tocqueville Pilgrim ... wasn't he one of those ..... ahhhh .... Frenchmen .... that you seem to have an abhorrence of ?

Maybe that you would in fact quote him - in spite of that abhorence - just confirms what he said, that I quoted above .....

It is amazing though - that so many possess such dexterity ..... that no portion of their backs remain untouched .... as they pat themselves .....

Oh, the irony ....

 

[Pilgrim]

Yes - I think he truly was - although certainly not in the passage you quote above.

The following seems to be a much better fit to the actual facts on the ground at present, as it were:

"All free people are proud of themselves, but national pride takes different forms. The Americans, in their relations with strangers, are impatient of the least criticism, and absolutely insatiable for praise. The slightest congratulation pleases them, but the most extravagant eulogium is not enough to satisfy them; they are all the time touting for your praise, and if you are slow to give it they begin praising themselves.

It is as if they were doubtful of their own merit. Their vanity is not only hungry, but anxious and envious. It gives nothing, and asks insistently. It is both supplicant and pugnacious.

If I tell an American that his country is a fine one, he replies, "It is the finest in the world." If I admire the liberty which it enjoys, he answers, "There are few people worthy of such liberty." I remark on the purity of manners in the United States, and he says, "Yes, a stranger who knows the corruption of other nations must indeed be astonished at us."

At length I leave him to the contemplation of his country and of himself, but he presently runs after me, and will not go away until I have repeated it all over again.

It is a kind of patriotism that worries even those who honour it."

Cute...and it does serve to further the liberal cause of self-contempt, especially if one takes this isolated paragraph and mistakenly applies it to all Americans. But how does it relate to the subject matter of the thread, which is "How the 'religion of peace' treats its daughters"? However, since you brought it up de Tocqueville also says this further into his essay:

"Again, most Americans have recently acquired the advantages which they possess, and therefore have inordinate pleasure in contemplating these advantages, and in showing them to others; and as these advantages may escape at any moment, they are always uneasy about them, and look at them again and again to see that they still have them. Men who live in democracies love their country as they love themselves, and model their national vanity upon their private vanity. The close dependence of this anxious and insatiable vanity of democratic peoples upon the equality and fragility of their conditions is seen from the fact that the members of the proudest nobility show exactly the same passionate jealousy for the most trifling circumstances of their life when these become unstable or are contested."

We need to keep in mind that this was written in 1831 when the democracy was quite young. If anyone is interested in reading a condensed version, see the link below - it only takes about a 20 min. reading time and it's clear that de Tocqueville wasn't quite as contemptuous toward Americans as you would have us believe.

Alexis de Tocqueville - Democracy in America - 'Squashed Philosophers' Abridged Edition

Yes indeed ..... Alexis truly did at least know us fairly well (if not others) ....

With that in mind, he also wrote this:
"The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults."

Actually it's pretty funny that you would quote de Tocqueville Pilgrim ... wasn't he one of those ..... ahhhh .... Frenchmen .... that you seem to have an abhorrence of ?
Maybe that you would in fact quote him - in spite of that abhorence - just confirms what he said, that I quoted above .....

My disdain is for the socialist policies of the French Government, not the French people. There is a difference you know, but I can see how your false assumption enhances your false premise. Even if your assumption was true, it would be irrelevant to a Frenchman that died 150 years ago. But I digress - this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of this thread.

 

[greg334]

Before either of you start lecturing each other on Tocqueville, have you read anything other than Democracy or Old Regime?

How about Journey to America or Memoir on Pauperism.

You do know the philosophy of the French government goes way beyond their slogan - Liberté, égalité, fraternité

But again maybe Pertain had it right and that is where we are truly headed - Travail, famille, patrie