I think

[OntarioVanMan]

I think America got too "fat" its growth extended beyond its economic abilities.....Like corporate expansion....432 different clothing stores on every street mall..some needed to close..restaurants every 100 feet..some needed to close...you get the drift....Like the stock market that gets out of whack when stocks and companies are over valued...and then it adjusts to a more real value...this recession is something like that..an adjustment to a more real type of living....

 

[layoutshooter]

That is basicly what happens. The problem this time is that the housing market had been "Set Up" to fail by VERY poor or VERY nasty government policy. IF this was NOT intentional then they are ever more stupid than I give them credit for. I have very strong concerns that the mess with housing was set up on purpose to "Force" this to happen. Why? To make it easier to control the people.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

That is basicly what happens. The problem this time is that the housing market had been "Set Up" to fail by VERY poor or VERY nasty government policy. IF this was NOT intentional then they are ever more stupid than I give them credit for. I have very strong concerns that the mess with housing was set up on purpose to "Force" this to happen. Why? To make it easier to control the people.

Maybe to a certain extent with the banking and the government sticking its nose in...not everything is a control issue.

BUT over the years, Corporations...like the Gap, Star Bucks JCP...have over expanded to what the real economy can support.

 

[layoutshooter]

We shall see, I am waiting for the next "round". I do not trust this bunch. Me thinks that they is up to something
"STINKY"

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I am more concerned about the American people and getting them back to work....the politics will rattle itself around....The American people are speaking up...

Manufacturing is up .05% this month first time in a year and the cost of living held steady with NO hyper inflation expected any time soon....

I know you guys don't want to acknowledge anything that is remotely positive because you know who'll take the credit...but we know it is just Corporate America making the necessary adjustments....not the head idiot!

 

[layoutshooter]

I don't believe that report on NO hyper-inflation soon. The M-1 supply is rising FAST. It won't take long till it reaches Carter levels. The last time I checked it was rising faster than it did in Carters days. The REAL un-employment rate is rising to VERY high levels. The Fed is buying up 7 year T-bills with printed money as well. ALL that cash is going to hit at one time. NOT GOOD!! I repeat, Me thinks they is up to something "STINKY" IF I was in my old job and I was analysing this I would be putting out "strong warnings" on the situation. I would be looking at this as a possible situation that could 'de-stablize" the government I was watching.

 

[greg334]

OVM,
You do know that the manufacturing employment needs to grow by something like 26% to mean anything?

The problems we are faced with are not going to be solved any time soon. The expansion of the economy will be a false one because of the monetizing of the debt and the large amount of spending that the government is doing.

The best thing to do is lower taxes, stop spending, and raise interest rates to at least 3 or 4%.

The other best thing is reduce government involvement but we know that ain't going to happen any time soon.

Can you imagine if we didn't do a thing except apply the laws as they were written in the finance sector - how much better we would actually be right now?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Now we need only 25.5 % now...and where did that number come from.....?

Cut taxes,spending yes...but let the markets dictate where the interest rate goes....you are asking the Feds to interfere in business by setting interest rates?

 

[greg334]

First I didn't explain the number right, I have to remember how it went. It has to do with the amount of jobs lost and the growth needed. That is the number from people at the U of the M here in Ann Arbor. They seem to think we need the growth by that percentage to start properly growing the economy for long term.

The thing is the federal reserve controls the interest rate, not the market. They have been for something like 97 years and it is there that our national debt interest rates are determined. So raising the rates will help not us, the consumer but the country by shoring up the dollar and making things a bit more attractive to the debt holders.

The monetizing of the debt, which is paying ourselves and our debt holders with money we just printed is a very very dangerous thing. If it is not tightly controlled and if our creditors demand other forms of payment, then we are in trouble. It will reduce the value of the dollar more, force us to pull money back out of the system and then we will see uncontrolled interest rate hikes and inflation take over. I don't have the faith in Geitner or anyone in the treasury department simply because since 2002, no one really knows what they are doing over there. Geitner embarrised us with the chinese by lying to them - he really should be replaced.

We have seen this before, where credit got really tight and businesses started to fail, but then the government did nothing - the banks did. We got out of it in a very short time but now we have over regulated markets, we have the government meddling in things they shouldn't even approach and there is a fear that taxes will go up at the same time a fear that commercial notes will be called in and no credit available to cover the notes.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I think America got too "fat" its growth extended beyond its economic abilities.....Like corporate expansion....432 different clothing stores on every street mall..some needed to close..restaurants every 100 feet..some needed to close...you get the drift....Like the stock market that gets out of whack when stocks and companies are over valued...and then it adjusts to a more real value...this recession is something like that..an adjustment to a more real type of living....

If anything, Americans overdue stuff! The biggest is overuse of credit. That, more than anything, got us into this mess.

Maybe to a certain extent with the banking and the government sticking its nose in...not everything is a control issue.

Ahh... but with the Democrats, most is a control issue. Take a look at what they advocate: taxes, gun control, restrictions on industry for whatever issue (currently environmental), minimum wage, anti-smoking, universal healthcare, pro-UN, pro-union, anti-religious/political correctness, anti-freedom of speech/political correctness AND legislation (a man who killed because of race is more evil than a man who killed because he's just a killer), etc.

I'd be surprised if anyone could come up with something major that Dems support, that ISN'T based on control.

 

[Steady Eddie]

Two more banks have failed....oh me....doomed we are all doomed......

 

[chefdennis]

The biggest thing that will keep the ecomoy in to bucket is the fact that we do NOT MANUFACTURE anythinganymore...we import it all....and as for the stock market, its coming out that the fed is feeding the bigger banks from the stimulus funds to buy stock to pudh the market up...all smoke and mirrors...prices are actually donw, we are going to see a deflation for a bit and spending is way down....but we will see inflation and probably hyperinflation by the end of 2010...and unemployment is going to get worse alot worse.....

 

[OntarioVanMan]

The biggest thing that will keep the ecomoy in to bucket is the fact that we do NOT MANUFACTURE anythinganymore...we import it all....and as for the stock market, its coming out that the fed is feeding the bigger banks from the stimulus funds to buy stock to pudh the market up...all smoke and mirrors...prices are actually donw, we are going to see a deflation for a bit and spending is way down....but we will see inflation and probably hyperinflation by the end of 2010...and unemployment is going to get worse alot worse.....

that was my original point....because we don't manufacture much anymore cept for cars.trucks.....MAYBE we were too "FAT"

You keep saying to bring it back to what was..I am asking is what was,.. might be too high of an expectation? Maybe we don't belong that high to begin with? say like a market correction...

I don't give a rats azz what OBama and his wrecking crew TRY or propose...my money is on the people....

 

[FIS53]

Part of the problem with the current crash was the fact of lower regulation in the financial sector. Countries with tight financial regs still have cash rich banks and investment facilities and credit is still available. So it is evident that some regulation must be in place in certain sectors of the business community or you have problems. Everyone harps about less regulation but apply that to the housing industry and watch what you get (ever see pics from other countries slums?). Now you'll say that industry needs regs. But so do a lot of them to keep things safe and running properly. protection not only for the consumer but for the business community.

Yes the US needs to take back a lot of the manufacturing it has lost. This means reinvesting in industry both light manufacturing and heavy industry manufacturing. Reduce the union demands or get them to work with industry to allow for long term viability. This doesn't mean low wages or a lack of benefits but a reasonable thought put into the process.

We haven't been in a one wage household affordability for the last 2 decades or more. So the situation will continue for years to come. We've made it this way so we have to live with it.
Rob

 

[greg334]

Rob,
It is not regulations that matter, it is the enforcement of the regulations that already exist or lack of that is what caused this problem.

For example, there is a law on the books that says lending institutions can not lend money for more than appraised value of the property - period.

But the main selling point for many variable rate loans were the fact that you could get a loan for 125% of the value of the property. A lot of loans were made for 125% of the value of the property and these were in most part the problem loans and a great percentage of the foreclosures.

There were two things that happened when the regulators purposely overlooked the lenders who practiced this;

1 - the loans were made without proper due diligence to ensure that this was not a speculative loan by lending against possibly declining property or the borrower was able to pay back the loan - the latter is still being done today.

2 - the safer approach was to allow inflation of the inspection reports and appraisals of the property to ensure that when the loan was handed off, it appeared to be lucrative.

3 - the unchecked practice of selling loans as an investment vehicle itself. It is a questionable practice and once tightly controlled.

4 - the lack of enforcing anti-trust laws to prevent the Too big to fail syndrome that plagued the US back between 1890 -1915.

 

[chefdennis]

the manufacturing that was lost was because of the governments intrusion into business on more then a few occasions nothing worse then the EPA and the corporate tax structure...the government regulated the corps and then taxed them to the point that it affected their bottom line and that forced them to move overseas...and they ain't comin back...no jobs in that sector and that is where the gains need to be made...it ain't happening...and that had nothing to do with being "too fat"...it had to do with the ability of the corps to make the money they needed to pay shareholders and the bills and wages and still make a profit....

everything that as devoloped since the loss of manufacturing, tech industries, service industries by and large have done well for a while then fallen off....we have over time become a comsumer nation not a producing nation, now we are becoming a 3rd world nation....and as barry pushes his agenda and ideals, we are heading to the same fate as zimbabwe...where you will need a bucket of cash to buy a loaf of bread

The people can't grow the industries or the nation as the government continues to nationalize industries and monitize the debt....it is all going to collapse around the people....at the hands of the government....the people can't fix it without taking over the government...once these socialist, facist, statist bills are in place, they are here to stay...until the people take back the government....and that won't happen through the ballot box...once the plans are in place, they are there to stay....