I understand that too.....Reading a snot load of Anti Obama and OBC crap gets tiring too....
I could swamp the room with Canadian Politic stuff?.....oh wait I tried that and got run off Loooong time ago.....LOL
Extreme Cowardice
- Thread starter RLENT
- Start date
I understand that too.....Reading a snot load of Anti Obama and OBC crap gets tiring too....
I could swamp the room with Canadian Politic stuff?.....oh wait I tried that and got run off Loooong time ago.....LOL
Brisco
Expert Expediter
OK......Agree.......
Getting Tired of this Soapbox myself too.....
But........He is covering.......PUSHING.....a subject that is OFFENSIVE to a few people around here. Not going to name names.......but others.....including a well respected Jewish Member here....Has spoken out against these Obsessive Anti Jewish - Anti Israel - basically Anti-Semite Rants also. (In the other 74 - 111 Threads he's started over this)
Aint worth it.......know what I mean. Let's just let him have his Last Word that he ALWAYS strives for...........
I don't think...I might be wrong...but I don't think Rlent is "anti" anything,... The thing is, I think he is just showing the "other side" of the story....The U.S. is so biased in blindly siding with the Jews on nearly every issue...the majority of the blame is always the Palestinians and never the Jews....to take the Palestine side is labeled anti Jewish and to criticize the Jews actions is anti semetic...
Is there any other religion in the world that it is illegal to voice an opposition to it?....anti Catholic?....you can run around saying Crusades never happened, No problem.....
BTW..you are also free to swamp the Soapbox with any other issues you might have as well....right now Rlent has taken control unopposed.....2 years ago it was Chef with all his conservative stuff....LOL
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Actually, I'm "anti" quite a few things ... but religions (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) ain't one of them.
I'm largely anti-state, anti-war, anti-militarism, anti racism, anti senseless violence, anti violation of civil and human rights, anti injustice ...
I'm also anti religious bigotry ...
On the last one tho', that doesn't mean I won't criticize people over religion - but I largely try to confine my criticism to instances where people claim to be adherents of a faith ... when their words and deeds actually seem to be the exact opposite of the tenets of the faith that they claim to profess.
I do make an effort to try not to mock or ridicule the actual true tenets of a faith as I understand them however ...
Just a very little bit of it ... there's actually a whole lot of story (or stories) there ... almost an incalculable number ...
Simple question:
When was the last time anyone here saw/heard/read a Palestinian explaining their cause on American Mainstream Media TV or radio or in print ?
The answer to that alone to ought to cause some real serious thought ...
It ain't because they don't want to be there ... it's because they are, to a very large extent, shut out ...
That is starting to change however ... albeit slowly ...
And the images and portrayals of the Palestinians that one does see tend to paint them - with a very broad brush - as savages or extremists ... which, of course, is quite useful to some, whose agendas are highly suspect, to be kind about it.
It's also largely false ...
This is so utterly obvious that it ought not need explaining or pointing out ... yet, for some, it does ...
BTW, in framing the issue, I would say "siding with the Israelis" ... because that is, in fact, what is happening for the most part ...
The US does not give aid to "the Jews" - unless of course you want to count the 97% of Homeland Security grants that were given to Jewish organizations - which was largely just another bone thrown to the Israel Lobby, and was specifically designed to be:
Islamophobia? Fuhgeddaboutit-- 97% of Homeland Security grants go to Jewish orgs!
... the US gives aid to a foreign country ...
I try to be very careful about how I frame the issue (Israeli vs Jewish issue) ... because 1. I want it to accurately reflect my actual thoughts, and 2. carelessness in framing it leaves one open to being attacked by those with less than unbiased motives ...
Yes, it is ... and it is a total inversion of what is warranted. It probably originally stemmed, from among other things, a collective guilt in failing to prevent the Holocaust from happening, along with a collective guilt from the unwillingness to accept Jews as refugees in the early 20th century ...
It's classic overcompensation ...
At this point in time, the actual motivations (above) really don't exist for the most part ... because that generation has largely passed on ...
Instead, what we have now is just a "We're-doing-it-because-we've-always-done-it-and-we-really-can't-explain-why" ... along with the continued exploitation by some (Abe Foxman & the ADL, AIPAC, et al) of previous Jewish victimhood ...
This is probably why the presentation of an alternative narrative is so disturbing to some: They know that they feel a certain way about the issue of Israel-Palestine ... but they would probably be very hard-pressed to really explain the reasons (valid ones based on the actual history of the conflict) why they feel the way they do, in a dispassionate way, using logic and historical fact ... without becoming emotionally charged to the point of near-hysteria over it ...
The alternative narrative - in which there are many true historical facts - is very disturbing to these folks, because by virtue of it's very nature it stirs up incredible amounts of cognitive_dissonance ...
Brisco's last reply to me in this thread - which wasn't really much of a reply at all - is a perfect example of this.
In my post to which he "replied", after making a very thorough effort to address the issues he raised in his previous post in a substantive manner, I raised myself a number of legitimate and substantive issues (clarity of language of UN resolutions, property rights, the right to self-defense, etc.)
His reaction to that ?
He addresses absolutely not one iota of it ... and instead proceeds with hysterical (false) characterizations ... which are based not on intellect and reason, but on nothing more than pure highly-charged emotion ...
He, in a later post, then readily admits what he really wants: cessation of any further of discussion of the issue ... although he misidentifies and misstates the real reason for that:
He claims that it is "a subject that is OFFENSIVE to a few people around here" (apparently implying someone other than himself)
Fact is, it's offensive to him - because it stirs up things which he has no way to resolve in his own mind, without enduring some serious mental pain and anguish (which includes potentially discovering he's actually on the wrong side of the issue):
A right to property ?
Of course he's for it ... but ...
A right to self-defense ?
Ditto ... but, but ...
A right for a people not to be genocided ?
Certainly ... but, but, but ...
Etc, etc, etc ...
That is the world that some - including the fellow that you are replying to - would like to create.
Sorry ... but I ain't gonna play that game ...
It is a lie ... put forth with less than sterling motives, in furtherance of an agenda ...
Well, I dunno if I've really taken "control" or swamped the Soapbox for that matter ...
I have confined my posts to a limited number of threads ... and the fact is there have been posts I've made about certain matters in those threads which actually could have had (or indeed, deserved) their own thread, if I really wanted to be exacting in terms of focus ...
Anyone may choose to participate in the threads I start or not ... and as you say start their own threads if they wish ...
LOL ... 5+ years ago it was Leo and his "liberal" stuff ...
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Originally Posted by OntarioVanMan
... to take the Palestine side is labeled anti Jewish and to criticize the Jews actions is anti semetic...
That is the world that some - including the fellow that you are replying to - would like to create.
As a non christian, I have been following Rlents postings with great interest and can honestly say I don't see any anti semetic comments at all.
Perhaps some confuse anti Israel government policy with anti semetism. It is not!
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Well, that certainly didn't take very long ...
I, like many others I'm sure, always have a great deal of admiration for ... a man who keeps his word once given and does what he says he's going to do ...
I suppose the absolute irony of the fact that you said you were "done" here on this matter and are now back spewing your emotional hysteria is entirely lost on you isn't it ?
Now ... what was that you were saying about an Obsession ?
Point to one post where I said that Israel ought to be genocided.
You can't.
What I have said (I think it was in the "International Day of Rage thread) in response to a question by another, is that it would be my preference that there be a single state from the river to the sea, which functions under democratic principles (one wo/man, one vote) and uphold the rights of all it's citizens - no matter their race, ethnicity, or religion.
In order to see justice done, that state would necessarily have to allow the full, unconstrained right of return for every single original indigenous inhabitant (and their descendants) who was/were dispossessed and ethnically cleansed at least from the point of the creation of the "state" of Israel forward (if not earlier) ... and would also provide compensation for those had their property stolen who elected not to return.
Not just the right of return based solely on one's religion or ethnic heritage ... for individuals who actually were never inhabitants of the region.
I'm not the one here that has demonstrated a love for and complete willingness to use violence.
That would be you, not me.
BTW - your statement is oxymoronic, in that you on the one hand profess a desire against suicide bombings, and on the other hand you say you would be glad to see me leave to undertake such a thing.
To me, that sounds functionally insane ...
Grow some stones ...
Your assertion that they are non-lethal has already been throughly refuted ...
If you continue to assert something which is demonstrably false - by virtue of historical fact - sane normal people may begin to question whether you have a very firm grasp on reality ... or sanity ...
I really don't think there is any country that doesn't have a western acceptance part of their population.. even Iran... Muslims as a whole and a religion are taught and practice peacful and loving tenants... The problem lies in the fact the governments are not so western friendly and MOST Muslim countries tend to support and harbor terrorism...
Including our own. After 9/11 and really after the latest bombing in Boston, not much of a word out of the Muslims communities here at home. They will only denounce it if cornered and actually questioned.
Brisco
Expert Expediter
You're kidding - right?? For starters, since the Obama administration took control it can hardly be said that the US is "blindly siding with the Jews on nearly every issue". On the flip side is it fair to say that anyone that disagrees with the political/religious policies, human rights abuses and terrorist tactics of Iran and their lackeys, Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO, Al-Quaeda - the list goes on forever - is Islamophobic? That term has been tossed around quite a bit lately in this forum. Does that apply to those against the fatwah issued against Salman Rushdie and the Dutch newspaper cartoonists and the resulting riots in Europe that followed? How many times have you seen Jewish barbarians beheading innocent civilians on the internet, or blowing themselves up in shopping malls or detonating bombs in the Boston marathon? BTW, should I mention the anti-American vituperation that this character has spewed against the American military and those that have given their lives to protect our way of life?? That's easy enough to find in the "search" feature. Talk about "extreme cowardice"!
Is the measure of "control" the quantity of bilge that's dumped into the forum accompanied by ad hominem attacks and personal insults? Wonder why no one else does that? The Chef's "control" only consisted of articles copied and pasted without his editorial comment most of the time. He's gone now - guess he wasn't offensive enough to be interesting.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Ya coulda fooled me ... but hey, I'll take you at your word and give you the benefit of the doubt ...
What do you anticipate will be your remedy for that condition ?
Well, I don't think your participation here comes with any guarantee to not be offended by something someone may write that you might read here.
My rants are not anti-Jewish or anti-semitic under any proper sense of the non-perverted, non-propagandized meaning of either term.
In fact, I have regularly cited Jews - both secular and religious - that hold very similar views to mine on the matters of both Israel and Zionism, as well as people who are Zionist to some degree or another.
And I do certainly hold a position which criticizes and condemns Israel - and Zionists - for some of their actions and speech.
That's not something I have any desire to deny or sugar-coat, because from my perspective it's entirely justified.
Now, you may well disagree with that and you are entitled to say so ... hopefully, if you do, you'll be able to defend your position with something more than inflated emotionally-charge rhetoric and over-inflated hyperbole ...
You know: something like say, well-thought out reasoning and a command of present and historical facts.
More emotionally-based, overly-inflated hyperbole and hysteria ... an inspection of the recent record would show that I have started less than a dozen threads on the topic of Israel recently ... precisely six to be exact ... seven if you count the thread on Lia Tarachansky's (who is a Jewish Israeli) film on the Nakba ...
Do you ever consider the idea that your (willful) use of distortion and gross exaggeration might adversely reflect on your cause ?
Or how, in doing so, you manage to caricature yourself ... entirely without the help of anyone else ?
Then why do you persist and continue ?
I'm not necessarily looking for the last word ... I am looking to promote and foster a discussion ... hopefully one that will involve good reasoning and intelligent dialog ... and not one that consists almost entirely of logical fallacy, misinformation, and emotional hysteria ... on a subject which has been for the most part politically taboo to even touch ...
I certainly do have an opinion and viewpoint on the matter ... one which I'm not at all afraid to share ...
Quite to your chagrin I suspect ...
I don't think it has anything to do whether he does or doesn't have the last word. Many of these posts with regards to the Palestinians aren't challenged by many simply because most have limited knowledge about what goes on over there. I would include myself in that category simply because I don't research it and my general exposure to that topic is through the MSM.
As more information becomes available, then different opinions will likely follow. If the same thing isn't constantly repeated, then some (clearly not all) will gain some education in to something they otherwise wouldn't have.
As more information becomes available, then different opinions will likely follow. If the same thing isn't constantly repeated, then some (clearly not all) will gain some education in to something they otherwise wouldn't have.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Once again, your actual actions are in direct contradiction to what you profess and claim ...
It's the functional equivalent of you handing me the ammo that will be eventually flowing in your direction. Not terribly bright, to say the least ...
But by all means, please do continue - it makes dealing with you that much easier for me.
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MSM? And all this time I thought you were A Fox news fan.
Still am a Fox fan but try to be worldly on Monday and Fridays. Contrary to popular beliefs, on those days I even take in MSNBC/CNN just for some opposing views and cheap entertainment.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
I suspect he isn't ...
That's probably a fair characterization ... at least in terms of the Executive Branch's blindness ... and may it ever be so ...
Nevertheless, the Administration is still largely in the tank for the Israelis, even if they have there eyes wide-open ... may it ever be otherwise in the future ...
Congress is another matter entirely ... what The Lobby wants, it has - up until very recently - for the most part, gotten ...
So much so that it passed into the common dialog with Saturday Night Live opining on the matter by caricaturing what Congress Critters would be willing to do for Israel on national TV ... in terms of activities involving a donkey ... or mule ... or something ...
(burro ?)
While that sketch did not air, it is reflective that what is largely known, but publicly unacknowledged, is passing the into mainstream conversation.
FWIW - The US should not blindly side with any nation.
No ... it's not fair to say that ...
The real problem comes in when people carelessly conflate that with all, or most, Muslims ... something I think, if one were to inspect the past record closely, we might find evidence of you yourself doing ...
Perhaps even in a highly venomous manner ...
Doing such is, very likely, reasonable evidence of either racism or religious bigotry ...
Nope ...
It does apply to the wife of a friend of mine though, who is a fallen (largely non-practicing) Catholic (the exact religion is largely irrelevant, I'm just being accurate) who remarked on the Toledo Mosque, while having my wife and I over to their house for dinner, saying something to the effect of:
"After 9/11, how dare they put that thing there ..."
And which point I promptly proceeded to tell her in no uncertain terms that I thought her comment was utterly (religiously) bigoted and was probably one of the most un-American things I had ever heard in my life ...
Needless to say, desert was rather ... subdued ...
It also likely applies to the nutjobs down in Tennessee (and elsewhere) who think that they can deny Americans their right to build and have a house of worship ... simply because they happen to be adherents of the Islamic faith ...
How many times have seen Palestinians using F-16's with cluster bombs and bombs with white phosphorus indiscriminately targeting a civilian population ?
How many times have you seen Iran or Iraq launch a foreign invasion of "Christian" country in pursuit of a unprovoked "war of aggression" ...
Implicit in your efforts above is the motivation to cast one side as "barbarians" and "savages" ... and another side (or sides) as "civilized" ...
It is certainly highly selective ... if not outright disingenuous and utterly dishonest ...
Of course drama queens often rely solely on appeal to emotion and highly-charged verbal imagery, which of course is a logical fallacy.
Your ability to spit out logical fallacies and irrelevancies is really something to truly behold ... I don't think ever seen anyone who is capable of packing more of them into a paragraph on a strictly per word basis. Congratulations !
Go ask a Palestinian father or mother who has had his home indiscriminately shelled by an Israeli Merkava tank and had his/her 3 year-old daughter killed who he thinks the "savages" and "barbarians" are ...
Or go ask a Palestinian wounded by an Israeli experimental D.I.M.E. (Dense Inert Metal Explosive) round who the "savages" and "barbarians" are:
Italian TV Exposes Experimental IDF Use of U.S. Weapon Which Severs and Burns Limbs Below Genitals Tikun-Olam Tikun Olam-????? ????
Dime bombs leave Israel's victims with mystery wounds - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
I'm sure you mean the anti-military (slash) anti-imperialist vituperation ... and not anti American ... because you are, after all, so intellectually honest and would never resort to a fallacious argument ...
BTW - how are you coming with that whole invading Iraq and launching an unprovoked "war of aggression" was "defending the Constitution" thingie ?
Are you making any headway at all ?
I don't mean to seem impatient or anything, and I don't know for sure without checking the calendar ... but it's probably coming up on a year since you decided to share that little bit of apparently self-generated idiocy with us ...
Jus' sayin' ...
No - it's actually not cowardly - simply by virtue of the fact that it is very much a minority view at present ... and is one which is, in some quarters, highly reviled and detested ... most particularly by little authoritarian thug wannabes ...
I can tell you tell that my outspoken anti-militarism is something that I have been actually threatened with physical violence for - which was not a threat which I took at all lightly ...
And I wonder what we'd find if we closely inspected your history of posts ?
Of course, we'd have to go back aways ... before you learned that it might be a good idea to tone it down a little ...
Like much of what you post, I'm not sure that your proposed conclusion necessarily follows from the facts you cite ...
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You're not listening. Every time there is a Muslim "incident" the Muslim communities here denounce it. Unlike the Catholics and some other religious groups, Muslims have no real hierarchy here, so there is no one to speak for them. Immediately after the Boston bombings, "After the terrible and sad events of last night, the criminal of the bombings on the loose, and the strong recommendations of our Governor, the ISBCC will be closed until further notice. Please be safe and pray for our city and state."
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
The text of Richard Silverstein's article on D.I.M.E @ Tikun Olam which accompanied the photograph of the D.I.M.E. wound I posted above ... mostly just because:
Yes siree ... winning hearts and minds the world over ...
Great ... it's apparently an American product ... why am I not surprised ...
Yes siree ... winning hearts and minds the world over ...
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