Extraordinary Rendition .....

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Interesting but hardly an unbiased source. As with all unbiased sources, they cannot be trusted. Biased groups cannot be trusted.
Just a little further comment on "sources" and the use of one's (presumably) God-given intelligence in determining what (or who) the actual source of something is:

While it is true that I linked to anti-war.com, the actual, original source of the article is the author of it - an individual - who happens to be Ray McGovern.

Antiwar.com simply carried it ..... as did other news outlets and organizations ....

http://therealnews.com/t2/component...mcgovern/979-render-to-caesar-extraordinarily

Render to Caesar, Extraordinarily | Consortiumnews

Render to Caesar, Extraordinarily | Bastiat Institute

Common Debate: Render to Caesar, Extraordinarily

Ray is a former CIA officer turned political activist. From his Wikipedia page:

"McGovern was a Federal employee under seven U.S. presidents over 27 years, presenting the morning intelligence briefings at the White House for many of them."

I think I can safely say - at least for myself - that he is at least as credible as you .... and perhaps moreso .... for a variety of reasons ....
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Enhanced interrogation isn't torture.
Of course it is. One is a euphemism for the other. Torture sounds really bad and is objectionable, but enhanced interrogation sounds happy and pretty and not at all objectionable, but they're the same thing. Such euphemisms are used all the time, most often by liberals, but by anyone, really, who is looking to sneak something objectionable past the masses. For example, "same sex" or "homosexual" marriage is quite objectionable to many (if not most) people, but how can anyone object to "equal" marriage? It's the same thing, though.

Torture is torture, regardless of what you want to call it. It's also treating someone in a manner in which you would not want to be treated, so there is that.

But none of that really matters. Those who want to use the euphemisms are pretending they are still in the sandbox, or at least trying to make others believe they are still in the sandbox. I, like many others, have finally woken up to the fact that the principles I was taught as a child, like fairness and justice, have no place in the world of power and money or government. The rules of the sandbox, strictly enforced by a wise and compassionate adult, are laughable when the sandbox is the government, which is controlled by power and money.

Strangely enough, despite my awakening to the reality of amorality, that old schoolyard programming continues to insist on its rightness. Ideas like "play nice," "share your toys," "no name-calling," "take turns" and "misbehaving gets punished" still resonate inside me as if they were some sort of fundamental truths. And they are, except when the sandbox is that of money and power, or government. At best, they're ideals. Lofty goals to aspire to. The truisms of the real world are more along the lines of, "my ball, my bat, my rules" and "money talks, and BS walks."

The upcoming presidential election is a perfect example of this. A classic showdown between the lessons we all learned as children and, well... the amoral reality. Further complicating the situation is our collective, unconscious desire to be supervised by that wise and compassionate adult. But there is no such adult. The truth is, we are alone in the sandbox. The game we play is called "Ideals vs. Money and Bats." For what it's worth, I'm betting on the latter, but there's a little boy in me who insists on voting for the former.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
FWIW:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: When did Antiwar.com start?

A:
At the end of 1995, the editors registered the domain name Antiwar.com. The site only became a full-time effort with the beginning of the US intervention in Kosovo. After the conflict became larger and more horrific, our interest grew along with our readership and today we consider ourselves one of the most important antiwar causes in the world.​

Q: Where do you get the news that you post on the site?


A:
First, we can direct you to our "Sources" page. Here you will find the various international, national and local news and commentary sites that we sift through every day searching for news worthy of our site. We also have a handful of researchers who send us links to news that is difficult to find and which makes Antiwar.com so unique.


Q: What is Antiwar.com's political affiliation?


A:
We pride ourselves on taking a open-minded position on anything that is antiwar related. This includes our choices of commentary we pick from outside sources. But we do have a political affiliation; we are libertarians. Emphasizing non-intervention abroad and here at home, our opposition to war is rooted in the Randolph Bourne'sconcept that "War is the health of the State."


Q: What are the intentions of Antiwar.com, do you have a motivation?


A:
Our primary intention is to get past the media filters and reveal the truth about America's foreign policy. In this process, we hope to show how the imperialistic tendencies of the American government lead to a loss of civil liberties and a centralization of political power.


Q: How do you choose the editorials that we post on the site?


A:
Every day, we scour the internet for the best commentary and editorials. We look for well-written pieces - from both the Left and the Right - that demonstrate the failings of an interventionist foreign policy and big government.


Q: Why do I see editorials from Patrick Buchanan next to a leftist columnist?


A:
An site that labels itself "Your best source for antiwar news, viewpoint and activities" must cover all antiwar issues. This includes those from the Right and the Left and thus explains the interesting dichotomy of ideologies that presents itself on many occasions.


Q: How often is the site updated?


A:
Updating Antiwar.com is a seven day-a-week enterprise. Depending on the events of a specific day, we may update the site on an hourly basis.


Q: Who is Justin Raimondo?


A:
Justin Raimondo is the editorial director of Antiwar.com and its principle columnist. He is also the author of Reclaiming the American Right: The Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement (with an Introduction by Patrick J. Buchanan), (1993), and Into the Bosnian Quagmire: The Case Against US Intervention in the Balkans (1996). He is an Adjunct Scholar with the Ludwig von Mises Institute, in Auburn, Alabama, a Senior Fellow at the Center for Libertarian Studies, and writes frequently forChronicles: A Magazine of American Culture. He is the author of An Enemy of the State: The Life of Murray N. Rothbard.

Q: How can I contribute financially to Antiwar.com's cause?

A:
As a non-for-profit group, we survive on generous contributions from our readers to keep the site active and growing. Please donate.


Got any other questions? Just send them to us!

 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
This acknowledgement at least forms a starting point or basis for a rational discussion.

Do you believe in the "rule of law" as a fundamental principle for the basis of society ?

Remember Randy, I have said more then once, "i could very easily be an anarchist"...

although some opinions are not hardline enough for me:

http://www.strike-the-root.com/

I have no problem hurting, punishing, torturing, or killing those I deem my enemy, just a our government does the same thing...agree or disagree, its a fact of life..and no our government does not believe in the "rule of law" as it pertains to anyone else or any other country.....as for what i believe, it makes no difference to our government what i believe...and as for myself, go back to the 1st sentence....

Basically, until we no longer carry the biggest stick on the block, we will be considered both the peace keeper and the bully...and yes we will force the situation both ways to our benefit...those that want it both ways are ok with that, those that arent, will be our enemy or think of us as protector...its a no win situation for anyone...but it is a fact of life...
 
Last edited:

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
PLEASE, PLEASE Mr. Terrorist, tell me where you are going to attack next. Wait let me get you some cool water and a couple of Virgins then you can tell us.:confused:
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"We pride ourselves on taking a open-minded position on anything that is antiwar related."

Now that's funny right there. :D
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Do I want to be interrogated in that manner? No. Is it torture? No. Disagree? Fine. Wrong, but fine. If the one interrogated has the same number of fingers/toes, finger/toe nails, functioning organs etc. after interrogation as before, no new blunt/sharp force trauma or other life threatening injuries then they weren't tortured.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Do I want to be interrogated in that manner? No. Is it torture? No. Disagree? Fine. Wrong, but fine. If the one interrogated has the same number of fingers/toes, finger/toe nails, functioning organs etc. after interrogation as before, no new blunt/sharp force trauma or other life threatening injuries then they weren't tortured.
Wow. You certainly have a unique definition of torture. The problem is, torture isn't defined by physical injury, but rather by physical pain or psychological trauma.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Is it torture? No. Disagree? Fine. Wrong, but fine.
Nope, it's not wrong - and no amount of burying your head in the sand and being unwilling to acknowledge what is a fact (by virtue of the US being a signatory to the Convention, which was ratified and thereby was made law ..... by virtue of the very Constitution which you so endearing profess ought to followed completely) will ever change that.

You can refuse to acknowledge it ..... you can try and refute it .... by repetition by some silly homespun "Leo-isms" (such as below) .... which have no force of law whatsoever - however none of them change the fact that UNCAT was, and is, the law of land .... tortured (pun intended) legal "findings" of a dubious nature by some amoral nazi dimwit (John Yoo) aside ....

.... someone by the way, who is on record as supporting the premise that if the President wanted to crush the testicles of an alleged terrorist's child as an enhanced "interrogation technique" .... it would be legally permissible .... and no law could stop him ...

[video]http://rwor.org/downloads/file_info/download1.php?file=yoo_on_torture.mp3[/video]

This joker was/is a fascist coward of the worst order .... who isn't even honest enough, and doesn't have enough balls, to claim his own words when queried in front of Congress ....

What a wuss ....

The reality of this is, that's entirely likely Mr. Yoo (and others) are quite careful about their plans for travel outside of the United States .... likely for very good reasons ....

If the one interrogated has the same number of fingers/toes, finger/toe nails, functioning organs etc. after interrogation as before, no new blunt/sharp force trauma or other life threatening injuries then they weren't tortured.
Next you'll be telling us all that Saddam did really have nukes ....
 
Last edited:

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
The United States will observe international protocol when it suits our purposes and ignore protocol when it doesn't suit. This happens under all administrations, Democrat and Republican. Obama makes a show of being more pious to international laws and treaties. Still, he skirts around such constraints when it suits his ends. Idealists can wring their hands as realism carries the day.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well I've eaten and slept since a lot of my posts but I'm pretty certain I never suggested crushing a terrorist's testicles much less a child's. That would indeed be torture. Now, given that option as a certainty to prevent a 9/11 type event, I'd probably go against the decision to not torture anyone. I frankly don't care what has been signed, nor do I care universally about opinions. Only certain ones matter to me. I know what torture is and isn't.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
First off, I do not post on any other site. I have only one screen name. Many in here know me and know that I am who I say I am. Those who know me know I am what I say I am.


Saddam did NOT have nukes. He DID have 500 metric tons of 'yellow cake' as well as several thousand nerve agent war heads, many of which he did use, mainly against the Kurds. Most of those war heads have yet to be accounted for. The best guess is that they are in Syria.


I don't trust source that labels themselves "anti-war". My personal experience teaches me that they are leftists who would resort to violence to put in their way of life. Which is control of the people. Only fools and the naive fall for their bull.

My experience was real life, not 'academic'. The nukes I targeted against were real. The nukes I had control of were real. I had no time for 'mind games'. I had a real job.

Funny how people ignore only those who they don't agree with. They only dismiss those they don't agree with.

Just because he was with CIA and 'turned' does not make his 'experience' any more valid than mine.

Just because I am an expediter now does not invalidate what I did before.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The United States will observe international protocol when it suits our purposes and ignore protocol when it doesn't suit.
This is a very funny statement (although not entirely surprising given the source) .... considering that it's coming from someone who evidently self-identifies as "conservative" ....

International protocol ?

Screw that - I'm talking about good old fundamental US Constitutional law .... you know: of the Article-VI-supreme-law-of-the-land variety ....

Surely you can't be that short-sighted ....

Essentially, what you are advocating is that the government ignore the fundamental basis that it was founded on (ie. the Constitution) .... and which defines it .... and by which it itself should be governed ....

At the point where such violations of said law become routine, and the excusing and acceptance of it becomes commonplace among the populace, we have reached the point where our nadir can be fully seen .... and the fall to it cannot be far away ....

The rule of law exists just as much to restrain misuse of the power of the state against individuals, as it does to prevent and remedy injustices by one individual acting privately against another.

"Where the law is subject to some other authority and has none of its own, the collapse of the state, in my view, is not far off; but if law is the master of the government and the government is its slave, then the situation is full of promise and men enjoy all the blessings that the gods shower on a state." - Plato

This happens under all administrations, Democrat and Republican.
Thank you for making my case that both parties are now so corrupt that neither is worthy of any support as a party.

Obama makes a show of being more pious to international laws and treaties. Still, he skirts around such constraints when it suits his ends.
No kidding ?

Gee .... I never would have thought it ....

Idealists can wring their hands as realism carries the day.
And "realists" (which is apparently a euphemism for hypocrites) can sit back and watch in utter amazement .... as the very thing which they claim they hold dear dies .... as consequence of becoming so utterly perverted as to be unrecognizable from what it was intended to be ....

Undoubtedly, they will wonder "why" it happened ....

I am also fairly certain that in so wondering, they will be unable to actually identify the source of the difficulty ....
 
Top