Batteries and Crankinig Amps

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
pre luber?
Pre Lube Her, A.K.A., foreplay. Dancing, caressing, a little nibble on the ears, a kiss on the neck, letting her see you wearing an apron while doing the dishes, whatever it takes.

In the case of a motor vehicle pre luber, it's a separately installed motor thingy that will pressurize and flush the engine nooks and crannies with oil before you start the engine, thereby eliminating dry starts and excessive engine wear due to too much friction. Your bearings, crankshaft, pistons, well, you know. It's motor foreplay to get 'er all ready before you crank her over.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
glad you toook that in the spirit intended.
:D

Like Turtle said it is device designed to pump oil thru the motor to eliminate dry starts. The device can either be a motorized pump or an accumulator tank (usually ranging from 1 to 3 quarts - although I'd imagine that larger sizes are available for bigger motors)

The accumulator tank is closed save for a single opening/port - when the engine is started, oil is forced up into the tank, pressurizing it.

To use an accumulator as a preluber you need a valve that can be closed once the motor is running and the tank is filled and pressurized. When you go to start the motor again you open the valve just before starting, to send oil thru the engine's internal lube passages .... and the cycle repeats.

This type of a setup is used on racing vehicles (without a control valve) to keep oil going to the engine under extreme conditions (say hard cornering, where is is throw against the side of the pan in the sump by centrifugal force and the oil pump might suck air, as an example)

I plan on using an electric motorized pump for two reasons: 1. the pump can be run pretty much for an indefinite length of time (depending on it's duty rating) and you are not limited by the finite size of the tank as to how much oil you can pump, 2. even using a fairly good quality pump, it will be no more expensive, and likely cheaper.

It can also be turned on after you shutoff the engine to keep oil flowing to help cool down the engine and turbo.

It is a known fact that generally the majority of engine wear occurs during startup or cold startups - while this setup will minimize it to some degree, it is not a total solution (don't know that there is one)

Part of the problem is fully understanding what is meant by: "most engine wear occurs at startup" It isn't just the initial starting of a (relatively) dry engine which lacks lubrication ..... but the fact that the engine is not at operating temp (where there is full heat saturation) for at least 20 minutes or so after starting - until all the parts are warmed.

So once oil is flowing it isn't the end of the problem - because the engine isn't fully up to temp. The problem is due to the fact that component part sizes, clearances, and shapes change from the point of being cold to where they are at operating temps. This happens at varying rates, due to the fact that the component parts are made from different materials (an aluminum piston vs. a cast iron engine block, say)
 
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danthewolf00

Veteran Expediter
if there was some way to add something like a luber to the espar block heater to heat the oil up a bit that might help some.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
West Marine is good. Check out the Pro Charging Systems. Go to the section on reconditioned chargers. Great prices, they work great. The best way to insure a battery is properly charged and conditioned is to charge each one seperately. Layoutshooter
 

simon says

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
I wish I could find the exact formula for a good isolator/solenoid. Any info you have on this is appreciated...I had an RV type mounted in the battery box and it worked well until is corroded and started failing. I have not found something right since. Maybe a moot point now, I just use 4 dual-purpose batts- no separation-and replace as necessary. But- would still like to know the right device to use? thx
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Ask Turtle about that one, he is the best in here on batteries and related toys. I don't like the dual purpose batteries. Like most things that are dual purpose they do everything they do half way and don't do anything they do right. Just my opinion. Layoutshooter
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yeah, Hellroaring, or Sure Power for an isolator. You want a true isolator and not a simple continuous duty solenoid. On a Sprinter and a few other vehicles, a battery separator must be used, but most vehicles will use an isolator. Which isolator to get will depend on if your vehicle's charging system is alternator sensing or battery sensing. If it's alternator sensing, a separator will need to be used (Sprinter, 2005 and newer GM's with Delphi or Bosch alternators). Otherwise an isolator can be used.

For Sure Power, here's the guide that tells you what "group" your vehicles falls into (not much information for trucks, tho), as well as complete instructions for installation, witht he instructions separated out by "group".
http://www.surepower.com/pdf/180012q.pdf

Here's the groups and the Sure Power isolator parts numbers that fit within each group:
http://www.surepower.com/pdf/isolatorguide.pdf

Some general information about how isolators work:
http://www.surepower.com/pdf/isolator1.pdf

And if you need a seaprator, here's the information on that:
http://www.surepower.com/pdf/separatorinterconnect.pdf

Hellroariing has all the information about their products more easily acessible on their site, even though a lot of it is confusing. But a phone call to them will answer any questions.

Which to use, Hellroaring or Sure Power? I dunno, they're both very good. Flip a coin. Hellroaring has some benefits, particularly in having less resistence so you get more volts to the batteries. That could be very important if the charging cable going to your house bank is a small cable, like 6 ga. or 4 ga. cable, as the cable itself will have resistence that causes some voltage loss. If it's long cable, and thin-ish, you could loose half a volt or more. If that's the case, you should probably be using thicker cable, but I'd go with Hellroaring, or a Sure Power Schottkey isolator (which is pretty much what Hellroaring is).

Neither is cheap. Don't go cheap here. Stick with Sure Power or Hellroaring.

Or, with Power Gate, if you want really efficient charging. Essentially zero loss as compared to a traditional diode isolator.

POWER-GATE

and

POWER-GATE

Power Gate isolators aren't cheap, either. But they're quite probably the best.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yeah, that one should work. It's designed for the Bosch and Delco alternators with alternator sensing. Although, you might want to keep a close eye on the charging voltage at the house bank. It's likely to be between .7v and 1.0v less than the alternator is actually putting out. Depending on the batteries in your house bank, that's OK, it just might take them quite a bit longer to reach a full charge than you'd think it would. Those isolators tend to have a forward current voltage drop of 0.7v to 1.0v between the alternator terminal and the battery terminal.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I was afraid of that. 0.7v to 1.0v at the isolator, and then more voltage loss in the cable and connections before it finally gets back to the batteries, and yeah, 12.7, 12.8, sometimes as much at 13 volts is pretty much what I figured.

13.2 volts is considered a minimum charging voltage. Here's the thing. It takes about 5 times longer to fully recharge a lead acid battery than it does to discharge it (not nearly as long for AGM batteries, tho). Meaning, if you discharge a battery at a rate of 25 amps, however long that takes, it will take 5 times longer to put a full charge back into it at a current of 25 amps. The first 70% will charge up very quickly, but it will drop off dramatically after 70%, though, and then will take a few hours for those last few amps to get pushed back into the battery. And that's at the proper voltage. It takes quite a bit of voltage to punch those last 30% through. At lower voltage (less pressure pushing the amps back into the battery), it will take much longer. Much. If at all.

13.2-13.5 is actually considered a "float" charge, and will keep a battery topped off, after being fully charged at 13.8-14.1 or even 14.4 (temperature depending).

Trying to charge a battery at 13 volts or less is, well, for one, gonna take days to do, but mainly it's just a nifty way of efficiently sulfating the batteries (a.k.a. killing them). At 13 volts or less, what you're doing is, at best, charging the batteries up to about 70%. No more. The unused 30% will quickly sulfate, resulting in a rather dramatic loss in capacity with each charge/discharge cycle.

If your batteries will last 12 hours between charges, within a few weeks, couple of months at most, they'll soon only last 10 or 8 hours. Soon it's 5 hours, then 4, then within another month or so maybe an hour or two. Before you know it, 6 or 8 months have gone by and you're knockin' on Crown's door looking to get some replacement batteries.

The battery monitor may very well lie to you and tell you the batteries are fully charged when they're not. That's because of how the Xantrex determines the battery is fully charged. If you're charging them at 13 volts or less, eventually the inflow of amps will trickle down to nothing, and finally the monitor will see that the battery isn't accepting any more amps, and must therefore be fully charged up. It knows how many amps went in, and will thus adjust your capacity accordingly. When your capacity begins to noticeably drop down to less than what you think it should be, you'll be shocked at just how little time (in days or weeks) that it will take for them to be useless.

I can tell you all of this with great authority, because I have a Sprinter and I used to have... that... same... exact... isolator.

Simply put, it doesn't work. There's just too much voltage loss at the isolator, and then in the cable back to the battery bank. You need a near-zero loss isolator and then at a minimum of #2 cable to keep the voltage loss to a minimum. I use a much heavier 2/0 cable, to keep that resistence as low as economically practical. 4/0 would be better, but that crap costs more than the van did.

What you need is this:
Battery Separator 1315-200 sure power

It works. the voltage at the battery is virtually the same that the alternator puts put, with the only difference being a 0.1v or so loss from the cable and the various lug connections, busbars and fuses, that add up to slight resistance.

The link above for the 1315-200 is a bi-directional separator, meaning it will engage if the starting battery is being charged by the alternator, as well as engage if the house bank is being charged by a shore power charger (to keep the starting battery charged up at the same time the shore power is charging the house bank). The 200 means it's a 200 amp unit.

For almost no difference in money, you can get a uni-directional unit that will engage only when the alternator is charging the starting battery, and will not engage if the house bank is being charged by shore power.
Sure Power battery separator 1314-200

The links provided are merely to where I got mine, 'cause that was the best price I could find at the time, and there may be a better price somewhere else. I can't remember where RLENT got his, but he's got the same one. He'll chime in if he feels so inclined.

These separators do have a "start assist" where they compare the voltages of the starting battery and the house bank, and if the house bank's voltage is higher than that of the starting battery, it will engage and combine the batteries to allow the house bank to help with the starting. They have a spade terminal that gets connected to the ignition position of the ignition switch, so that it only looks at and compares the voltages only when the key is turned to the ignition position (and not all the time, like when the key is in the #2 RUN position). I don't recall what year your have, and I'm not sure about the 07/08 Sprinters, but on the 06's and earlier, connecting it to the ignition switch is harder'n Chinese 'rithmetic. It's somewhere up there in the steering column and I decided it wasn't that big a deal. RLENT came up with a more creative and elegant solution for it, which he may explain if you ask him real nice like.

But you really need to ditch that isolator and get a battery separator, and I'd do it toot sweet before you kill those batteries dead.
 
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