Today's New Truck Drivers and Their Training

[paullud]

Yea, I think I saw them at the TA in Nashville trying to park last weekend.

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LOL I don't know how they can make a driver a trainer with less than a year experience.

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[Camper]

Except for the fact they are one of the worst carriers and if you think back Swift was the same company that had some serious issues with their "school".

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"Worst" is a a relative term. They're actually a much better carrier than their reputation would suggest. For someone starting out with no CDL experience, they do provide a means for one to get their foot in the door.



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[AMonger]

LOL I don't know how they can make a driver a trainer with less than a year experience.

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I forget how long (actually short) it is before Werner makes you a trainer, but iirc, it's measured in weeks. You can be a trainer without having gone through a single winter. They have guys with years of experience who have to go out with a trainer because they haven't driven in a couple years and are just getting back into the industry, and their "trainer" is barely qualified to drive alone.

 

[AMonger]

"Worst" is a a relative term. They're actually a much better carrier than their reputation would suggest. For someone starting out with no CDL experience, they do provide a means for one to get their foot in the

Actually, "worst"is an absolute.

 

[tenntrucker]

LOL I don't know how they can make a driver a trainer with less than a year experience.

Well at least they provided we with 30 minutes of entertainment!

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[Camper]

Actually, "worst"is an absolute.

Not when it's tossed around arbitrarily..



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[cheri1122]

"Worst" is a a relative term. They're actually a much better carrier than their reputation would suggest. For someone starting out with no CDL experience, they do provide a means for one to get their foot in the door.

If they provided sufficient actual training [sending new drivers out with a 'trainer' whose qualifications and motives may be less than stellar is not good enough], so as not to risk the life & safety of everyone else, that would be admirable. But they don't.
Drivers whose school and carrier training began and ended during the summer months are NOT ready to drive solo through the mountains and big city snow piles [Chicago, Philadelphia, NYC] in December, but with forced dispatch and customers to cover, Swift [and the rest like them] they have no choice - anything happens, it's the driver who takes the blame. The carriers that fail to equip rookies with training in snow, ice, and mountains aren't held accountable for the failures, and haven't the ethical integrity to do what they can to prevent them, either. They just keep replacing them instead.




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[jjoerger]

But what about there CSA scores?
You know, that program that was supposed to weed out dangerous carriers and drivers.

 

[paullud]

Not when it's tossed around arbitrarily..



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I meant that Swift has the worst program, and wasn't tossing the word in arbitrarily. They run the road test and pass people that have no business being behind the wheel, then they put rookies in a position as a trainer. There are other companies that do similar things but I just haven't seen them do things to the illegal and unethical standards of Swift.

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[Camper]

"Worst" is a a relative term. They're actually a much better carrier than their reputation would suggest. For someone starting out with no CDL experience, they do provide a means for one to get their foot in the door.

If they provided sufficient actual training [sending new drivers out with a 'trainer' whose qualifications and motives may be less than stellar is not good enough], so as not to risk the life & safety of everyone else, that would be admirable. But they don't.
Drivers whose school and carrier training began and ended during the summer months are NOT ready to drive solo through the mountains and big city snow piles [Chicago, Philadelphia, NYC] in December, but with forced dispatch and customers to cover, Swift [and the rest like them] they have no choice - anything happens, it's the driver who takes the blame. The carriers that fail to equip rookies with training in snow, ice, and mountains aren't held accountable for the failures, and haven't the ethical integrity to do what they can to prevent them, either. They just keep replacing them instead.




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As with all large scale programs, you're bound to hear both ends of the success spectrum. I've heard just as many, if not more success stories about Swift and their training as I've have regarding the negative ones.

Another factor that comes into play is individual ability. Someone who starts off with more natural ability will tend to perform better than someone who might need more intense(perhaps one on one) training. Some seem to confuse intense with "sufficient".



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[Camper]

I meant that Swift has the worst program, and wasn't tossing the word in arbitrarily. They run the road test and pass people that have no business being behind the wheel, then they put rookies in a position as a trainer. There are other companies that do similar things but I just haven't seen them do things to the illegal and unethical standards of Swift.

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With all due respect, you're wrong if you think Swift has the worst program. It might not be stellar. One can argue whether it's adequate for some. However, It's not the worst program out there.


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[AMonger]

But what about there CSA scores?
You know, that program that was supposed to weed out dangerous carriers and drivers.

A new driver has a perfect CSA score. Once he has accidents and violations, get rid of him and find a new driver with a perfect score.

 

[Camper]

I can't be wrong, it's my opinion based on what I have seen, heard, and read. I have not seen such a poorly run, unsafe program that puts as many drivers behind the wheel that don't belong there as Swift has.

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Exactly, it's an opinion, one of an untold number. It's not gospel. Swift might be the worst program in your mind, based on your perspective but that doesn't mean it's the worst out there(far from it). The complaints I tend to hear regarding Swift aren't unlike those I hear regarding those of other carriers. I also happen to know a fair number of folks who went through Swift's program with no complaints.




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[cheri1122]

As with all large scale programs, you're bound to hear both ends of the success spectrum. I've heard just as many, if not more success stories about Swift and their training as I've have regarding the negative ones.
Here's one for you: I was one of the rookies who survived driving solo through the mountains and major cities [often in an unfamiliar truck, because they'd switch it frequently for their own reasons/purposes] over the winter months, but it sure wasn't the training that I'd credit for the accomplishment.

Another factor that comes into play is individual ability. Someone who starts off with more natural ability will tend to perform better than someone who might need more intense(perhaps one on one) training. Some seem to confuse intense with "sufficient".

While others seem to confuse sufficient with minimal: if they pass the test in August, don't even think about how prepared they are for a November run through icy sleet in the mountains - that's their problem. The carrier is under no obligation to determine whether the individual has the ability, until the individual has proven that they don't. If the proof includes injuries and deaths, that's just a 'cost of doing business', eh?
My point is that the carriers DON'T know, because they don't bother to determine, every driver's ability to drive safely in the adverse and often treacherous conditions of snow and ice, particularly in the mountains.
They have an obligation to the rest of us to ensure their drivers have demonstrated their competence in the very different demands of winter driving, and this obligation is ignored, and the consequences for their failures are borne by others.



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[Camper]

I never said it was gospel, I said it was my opinion which for some reason you have decided you know my opinion better than I do and told me my opinion is wrong. Who are these other carriers that you say have a worse training program than Swift? My opinion is based on the fact that not only did Swift ignore safety by putting unqualified drivers behind the wheel they have also done so illegally.

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Here's the thing, you threw out an absolute term(worst). If you had stated their program is bad, well fine but to state Swift has the "worst" one out there is off base. Off the top of my head I've heard more complaints about JB hunt's program and Werner's Program. Now, does that mean they're the worst out there..No but It does call into question whether they're good programs or not as do the complaints about Swift. I wouldn't point to one and say they're the worst. Absent actual data, that's nothing more than personal perspective.

BTW..Here's Swift's FMCSA Safety Rating:

http://safer.fmcsa.dot.gov/query.asp?searchtype=ANY&query_type=queryCarrierSnapshot&query_param=USDOT&original_query_param=NAME&query_string=54283&original_query_string=SWIFT TRANSPORTATION CO OF ARIZONA LLC

Granted, these ratings are far from gospel but they certainly call into question the theory that they're the worst out there.

 

[Camper]

As with all large scale programs, you're bound to hear both ends of the success spectrum. I've heard just as many, if not more success stories about Swift and their training as I've have regarding the negative ones.
Here's one for you: I was one of the rookies who survived driving solo through the mountains and major cities [often in an unfamiliar truck, because they'd switch it frequently for their own reasons/purposes] over the winter months, but it sure wasn't the training that I'd credit for the accomplishment.

Another factor that comes into play is individual ability. Someone who starts off with more natural ability will tend to perform better than someone who might need more intense(perhaps one on one) training. Some seem to confuse intense with "sufficient".

While others seem to confuse sufficient with minimal: if they pass the test in August, don't even think about how prepared they are for a November run through icy sleet in the mountains - that's their problem. The carrier is under no obligation to determine whether the individual has the ability, until the individual has proven that they don't. If the proof includes injuries and deaths, that's just a 'cost of doing business', eh?
My point is that the carriers DON'T know, because they don't bother to determine, every driver's ability to drive safely in the adverse and often treacherous conditions of snow and ice, particularly in the mountains.
They have an obligation to the rest of us to ensure their drivers have demonstrated their competence in the very different demands of winter driving, and this obligation is ignored, and the consequences for their failures are borne by others.



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With all due respect, it is up to the individual in any professional to make sure s/he has the right tools/training for the trade. There is no utopian program that covers every type of situation/condition that one is going to encounter. Thus, it is up to the individual to learn as s/he goes and pick up where the training leaves off.

I agree, there’s always room for improvement with respect to training but it will never be a perfect science. Ranting and raving about that reality does nothing more than invite unwanted government intervention and more needless regulations.

 

[ATeam]

I agree, there’s always room for improvement with respect to training but it will never be a perfect science. Ranting and raving about that reality does nothing more than invite unwanted government intervention and more needless regulations.

If your complaint is about regulations, why have regulations at all for CDL drivers? No one in this thread has suggested that the standard three weeks of training followed by questionable on-road training with a trainer/co-driver is sufficient. If existing regulations are not good enough and more would be worse, why have them at all?

With a hypothetical stroke of a pen, you could eliminate CDL requirements and all the compliance hoops and burdensome regulations they create. You could make it simple. You could make it such that if you are licensed to drive a car, you are also licensed to drive a truck.

What do you think about that approach? How would things be if you let carriers decide how much training they want their drivers to have? How would things be if you let drivers decide how much more training they want to get on their own if they feel it necessary?

 

[jjoerger]

A new driver has a perfect CSA score. Once he has accidents and violations, get rid of him and find a new driver with a perfect score.

I agree, but the carrier has a CSA score also and just because the driver leaves any violations he has accrued stays on the carriers record for (I think) 2 years.
It would be in the carriers best interest to have qualified and safe drivers in the seat at all times.
When we passed our CDL A Test we had doubles and triples and tanker endorsements. Does that mean someone should turn us loose in that type of vehicle unless they are sure we are fully qualified to operate that vehicle in a given circumstance? Like Donners Pass in a snow storm.

 

[cheri1122]

With all due respect, it is up to the individual in any professional to make sure s/he has the right tools/training for the trade.

Which is exactly what those individuals aren't getting from the carriers who advertise training as a benefit, and sometimes charge a lot of money for it, too.

There is no utopian program that covers every type of situation/condition that one is going to encounter. Thus, it is up to the individual to learn as s/he goes and pick up where the training leaves off.

'Utopian' is a gross mischaracterization of a training program that addresses the normal and usual conditions all drivers will face between November and April - and a condescending deflection of the very responsibility that is promoted in the next breath.

I agree, there’s always room for improvement with respect to training but it will never be a perfect science.


Don't ask for perfect, adequate is fine. But it will never even reach the level of adequate if the reality of the differences between June & December is simply ignored, forcing drivers to learn how to handle icy mountains on their own. Call it machismo, or just pride, but how many drivers will admit they lack the knowledge required? Not enough to skip the subject during training, that's for sure.

Ranting and raving

Excuse me - this is discussing. Calling it' ranting and raving' is just more of the dismissive condescension that furthers nothing but someone's ego.

about that reality does nothing more than invite unwanted government intervention and more needless regulations.

Business has proven itself to be no more or less trustworthy than people in general, some of whom think nothing of harming others. Probably less, actually, as 'business' has a current politically correct cachet that overlooks almost anything [especially if it claims to provide jobs]. That fact makes government intervention and regulation as necessary as law, which is neither unwanted nor needless in most cases.
"Trust, but verify" is excellent advice.

 

[Camper]

You don't seem to understand that my opinion can't be wrong, it is impossible as it is an opinion. My opinion that Swift has the worst training program is far from off base and I have facts to back my opinion up.

Your assertion that Swift is the worst program is nothing more than your opinion. To equate it to fact is wrong.

Swift runs their own school and puts unqualified and unsafe drivers behind the wheel illegally, that is a fact.

Prove it.

Let's assume though for the sake of argument that is fact. To assume they're the worst program is to assume they're the only ones who cut corners. If you believe that as fact, I have waterfront property in the Sahara Desert I'd like to sell you.

I doubt you have heard recent complaints about JB's program since they don't train new drivers and haven't done so in years. You might of heard complaints about them as a company and the way they treat drivers or maintain equipment though.

I'm talking about both, their training program and general operations - basically the same gripes you hear about most big carriers.

There is some actual data for you so it is more than personal perspective but it still is only an opinion.

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As there is on most big carriers with 14,000 plus drivers.

Also, there are just as many facts to the contrary. Case in point, the link to Swift's FMSCA record in my previous post.