Ok Man convicted of murder for killing a robber

bobwg

Expert Expediter
Saw this on the news today Oklahoma man working in a Pharmacy kills one of two armed robbers and is charged with and convicted of murder. The dead robber was a 16 year old the first shot hit him in the head but was not dead yet, the man runs outside toward the other robber then comes back and pumps 5 more shots into the 16 year old robber. What do you think ? self defense or over reacting vigilantte??
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Saw this on the news today Oklahoma man working in a Pharmacy kills one of two armed robbers and is charged with and convicted of murder. The dead robber was a 16 year old the first shot hit him in the head but was not dead yet, the man runs outside toward the other robber then comes back and pumps 5 more shots into the 16 year old robber. What do you think ? self defense or over reacting vigilantte??


Stupid. Once the threat was ended he should have stopped. He should have never ran outside and NEVER went back and shot him again.

All is fair when stopping an armed or any kind of robbery. Once it's stopped, it's stopped.

I understand the rage, I have been robbed twice. Once in England and once here. Self control is important. He should have shot better in the first place.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
The Story here..............

(why people don't post links to storys is something I still can't understand.........)

Oklahoma City pharmacist

The news video when it first happened.......

YouTube - ‪Ersland Charged With Murder in Pharmacy Shooting‬‏

Raw uneditted video of the shooting itself........

YouTube - ‪Raw Video: Pharmacist Kills Would-be Teen Robber‬‏

Opinion, Yes, he should have been charged with something. But, to get a "Life" sentence with this guilty verdict is absolutely ridiculous. I would understand a Guilty Verdict, thus leaving him a convicted felon for the rest of his life, along with 10 years supervised probation. But again, "Life" is pushing it too far.

As far as any sympathy for the 16 year olds death, None comes across my heart at all. He made the choice to have that first bullet enter his body. The other 5 that ended his life is what I am somewhat in confliction with. At least this Pharmacist made it so that there's 1 less criminal his fellow pharmacists have to worry about.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Should have never pumped in the other 5 shots. If he wanted the bad guy to die then he could have taken his time calling 911 and let him bleed out while waiting for the life squad to get there.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
The Story here..............

(why people don't post links to storys is something I still can't understand.........)

Oklahoma City pharmacist

The news video when it first happened.......

YouTube - ‪Ersland Charged With Murder in Pharmacy Shooting‬‏

Raw uneditted video of the shooting itself........

YouTube - ‪Raw Video: Pharmacist Kills Would-be Teen Robber‬‏

Opinion, Yes, he should have been charged with something. But, to get a "Life" sentence with this guilty verdict is absolutely ridiculous. I would understand a Guilty Verdict, thus leaving him a convicted felon for the rest of his life, along with 10 years supervised probation. But again, "Life" is pushing it too far.

As far as any sympathy for the 16 year olds death, None comes across my heart at all. He made the choice to have that first bullet enter his body. The other 5 that ended his life is what I am somewhat in confliction with. At least this Pharmacist made it so that there's 1 less criminal his fellow pharmacists have to worry about.
Gee excuse me today was the first time I saw anything about this story on the news, some of us may not know how to do the fancy links or everything else like you sir! please dont punish me:p
 
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Brisco

Expert Expediter
Gee excuse me today was the first time I saw anything about this story on the news, some of us may not know how to do the fancy links or everything else like you sir! please dont punish me:p

OK, no punishment this time..................:p

At least I didn't put the :rolleyes: after I said what I said.

I've seen this story a couple of times in the past. When you posted what you did above, many here that had not seen nor heard anything about the story would probably wonder "What pharmacist??? What murder???" Links always help so that one may be better informed on how it is they wish their opinion to be viewed by others.

BTW, you do know how to post links. Look at your sig..........;)
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Just read of a pharmacist for a Walgreen's in Benton Harbor, Mi, who shot an armed robber [who jumped the half wall into the pharmacy], with a concealed weapon he was licensed to carry, and was fired by the store. I'll post the link if I can find it again :confused:
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Just read of a pharmacist for a Walgreen's in Benton Harbor, Mi, who shot an armed robber [who jumped the half wall into the pharmacy], with a concealed weapon he was licensed to carry, and was fired by the store. I'll post the link if I can find it again :confused:


Scum deserves to die. Government cannot ever determine who is scum and who is not. Obama is proof of that@!
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
Just read of a pharmacist for a Walgreen's in Benton Harbor, Mi, who shot an armed robber [who jumped the half wall into the pharmacy], with a concealed weapon he was licensed to carry, and was fired by the store. I'll post the link if I can find it again :confused:

I saw this a couple of days ago too.......

Michigan Walgreens Pharmacist Jeremy Hoven Fired After Shooting at Robbers - ABC News

No one was shot, one was "shot at" though.

That pharmacist needs to go back to the gun range for more target practice. Know what I mean. :D
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter

By ALAN FARNHAM
May 28, 2011

"In Benton Township, Michigan, two armed robbers wearing masks burst into a near-deserted Walgreens at 4:30 a.m. To pharmacist Jeremy Hoven, it was a prescription for trouble. So he filled it with hot lead."

Alan Farnham should be fired for writing that paragraph. It's a news story, not a Philip Marlow or Sam Spade novel.

“Of all the script joints in all the towns in all the world, they walk into mine.” <snort>
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Time to contact Walgreens and advise them they lost customers to CVS until such time as Mr. Hoven is reinstated with back pay and an apology.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Time to contact Walgreens and advise them they lost customers to CVS until such time as Mr. Hoven is reinstated with back pay and an apology.
Knee-jerk reaction. Hoven is a man who refused to abide by the policies of his employer, despite receiving comprehensive training on their robbery procedures and how to react and respond, and was fired because of it. What should Walgreens apologize for? For hiring a man who can't follow the rules and procedures that he has agreed to follow?

What if he'd shot a customer? You think Walgreens wouldn't be on the hook for that bill? He admitted he had acted out of fear, and, "The adrenaline was taking over." From that and the fact that he missed repeatedly from a few feet away, is a clear indication that he isn't well trained in high pressure, high adrenaline situations, and probably has no business carrying a gun while in the employ of someone who will be financially responsible for his actions. Frankly, I'm surprised that he didn't end up getting shot with his own gun.

Incidentally, CVS has the same policy of no guns and no confronting robbers. So does Walmat. So does Rite-Aid. If you go to another pharmacy, you're doing nothing but supporting the same policy, just at a different store. Why wait until a policy gets enforced, why not just go ahead and boycott any pharmacy with those policies?

Better yet, boycott all business which have a no-guns policy.
 

Pakrat

Seasoned Expediter
My brother has taught concealed carry classes for years now. I was his first student and have helped teach several classes since he started. You are justified in using deadly force only while the threat exists. The guy should not have returned and finished him off. Not saying the punk didn't deserve to die. Not saying life makes sense either. Just saying if the threat has been neutralized, you are no longer justified to keep shooting.


"Let's Roll"
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Knee-jerk reaction. Hoven is a man who refused to abide by the policies of his employer, despite receiving comprehensive training on their robbery procedures and how to react and respond, and was fired because of it. What should Walgreens apologize for? For hiring a man who can't follow the rules and procedures that he has agreed to follow?
It's one thing to have a policy against chasing a robber out the door, or against detaining a shoplifter or something similar, but any policy against reasonable self-defense is immoral and to be ignored.

One place I worked had these old elevators and I got stuck in one. Someone brought a chair and I pried the doors open and stepped down and out. Later, my boss chastised me for not waiting to be freed some way that didn't involve crawling out. After all, he reasoned, had the car plummeted while I was half in and half out, I'd have been cut in half.

Perhaps, I rebutted, but when my safety is in question, I start making all the decisions that affect me.

Another time, when I was a guard, several of us who were off-duty stopped at the shopping center at night where one of our fellow guards was stationed. We were all standing around talking, and I noted that the guard on duty had bought a new gun.

"Sure did," he says, and unholsters it, safes it and hands it to me. I was a bit surprised he did that, but I looked it over to my satisfaction and returned it.

Later, after we had left, I was talking to the owner, who was also there at the time, and told him, "I don't know what he was thinking. If we had heard some shots fired on the property while I had the gun, I wouldn't have given it back to him." He said he wouldn't have if he were me, either. When your safety is at stake, you have the moral and ethical right to act in your own self-interest.

I had to shake my head back when the anthrax scare was going on in D.C. The capitol police sent a message to all congressmen and senators to "shelter in place," and they all complied. I wondered how binding that "order" was. I can't imagine considering that binding. Then again, I don't consider "mandatory evacuations" binding, either.

From that and the fact that he missed repeatedly from a few feet away, is a clear indication that he isn't well trained in high pressure, high adrenaline situations, and probably has no business carrying a gun while in the employ of someone who will be financially responsible for his actions. Frankly, I'm surprised that he didn't end up getting shot with his own gun. cy.

That someone inexperienced and untrained misses like that from so close in such a situation is closer to the rule than the exception. Cops do that all the time.

From what I've gleaned from your posts (unless I'm confusing you with someone else), you have some extensive firearms training and experience, right? So you know about how adrenaline and tunnel vision and all that affect someone in that type of situation. So that he missed like that is hardly unusual. To say that disqualifies him puts so lot of cops out of a job if that's the standard.


Incidentally, CVS has the same policy of no guns and no confronting robbers. So does Walmat. So does Rite-Aid. If you go to another pharmacy, you're doing nothing but supporting the same policy, just at a different store. Why wait until a policy gets enforced, why not just go ahead and boycott any pharmacy with those policies?

Better yet, boycott all business which have a no-guns policy.

But can't we differentiate between a policy against stopping a robbery and defending one's own life?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
How nice of you guys to assume the 16 yr old was SCUM...:rolleyes:


When the guy came back and put 5 more into the now defenseless teen ...WAS cold blooded murder....he should be executed.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It's one thing to have a policy against chasing a robber out the door, or against detaining a shoplifter or something similar, but any policy against reasonable self-defense is immoral and to be ignored.
That's fine, but ignoring it will will get you fired.

First mistake the guy made was trying to call 911 while the robbers were still in the store and confronting him. That's what caused one of the robbers to vault the counter, escalating a simple armed robbery to a desperate confrontational situation where the robber's adrenaline is flowing more than it was a few seconds ago. The pharmacist then panicked and drew his own gun. There's a reason these types of policies are in place.

After all, he reasoned, had the car plummeted while I was half in and half out, I'd have been cut in half.
Well, yeah, 'cause being cut in half is way worse than being splattered whole when the car pummels to the ground. One is messy dead and the other is really messy dead. His concern was probably for the janitorial staff.

That someone inexperienced and untrained misses like that from so close in such a situation is closer to the rule than the exception. Cops do that all the time.
Oh, I know. And many people would be surprised at how often someone with a gun ends up having it taken away from them and then getting shot with their own gun.

From what I've gleaned from your posts (unless I'm confusing you with someone else), you have some extensive firearms training and experience, right? So you know about how adrenaline and tunnel vision and all that affect someone in that type of situation. So that he missed like that is hardly unusual. To say that disqualifies him puts so lot of cops out of a job if that's the standard.
Some training, yes. Not all that extensive, I'd say. Never trained in high pressure situations, never experienced it, either, but I know about it. I wouldn't at all say that he should be disqualified, but I know a safety class and 3 or 4 times a year at the shooting range is nowhere near the amount of repetitive training one needs to be able to shoot instinctively while under high adrenaline pressure.

But can't we differentiate between a policy against stopping a robbery and defending one's own life?
Of course. I don't know of any business with a policy that says you can't defend yourself. But like I said, if he had followed the store's policies in the first place, it might not have gotten to the point where he was put into a position of having to defend his life.

Back when I was in restaurant management we had regular classes on how to handle robberies. One thing of importance is to know that, usually, when a robber or robbers enter the store their adrenaline is already pumping pretty high, and the last thing you want to do is to pump it up even further by some unexpected action, like a confrontation. They want to get in, get what they want, and get out. Anything that doesn't fall within that plan and they can panic.

Here's one for ya. You manage a store, or even as an employee, and you're in around 5AM to prepare for a 6AM opening. There's a bang on the back door, another employee coming in to work. Only you look through the peep hole and see not just an employee, but someone else holding a gun to the employee's head. The gunman says, "Let us in or I'll kill her."

What do you do?
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
How nice of you guys to assume the 16 yr old was SCUM...:rolleyes:

Well Van, let's see........

16 year old kid bursts through door wearing a mask and with a friend who's also wearing a mask AND carrying a big ole handgun. There is no audio on that tape showing this, but I'm presuming they both weren't yelling "Trick or Treat", "Surprise", or "Can you tell me where to find the Candy Bars at??"

Should we be calling them "Choir Boys who were having an off day"??? Or how about "Honor Roll students pulling a practical joke"???

Nah......I'll stick with "SCUM". Seems to fit just fine. :rolleyes:

When the guy came back and put 5 more into the now defenseless teen ...WAS cold blooded murder....he should be executed.

Not necessarily...........IMO.

One thing I don't like about his "Guilty of First Degree Murder" conviction is that the Jury was not given any other choices to convict him of. Which does happen in similar cases all over the country. The Jurys 2 choices were "Not Guilty", or "Guilty of First Degree Murder". Yes, he shot the kid 5 more times, so they really had no choice but to convict. In most states, to convict one of such a high felony, "Intent" has to proven. They say all this took place in less than 2 minutes time. (Kids barging in door, Pharmacists shoots, chases kid out the door, comes back in, shoots again.....) That Pharamcist has probably lived a LONG Law abiding life. Do you think he walked into that store that morning with the Intentions of KILLING that day??? Or how about 2 1/2 minutes before those Kids stormed through that door as he was speaking to one of his employees about a customers prescription? Do you think he was "Intending" on killing someone 3 1/2 minutes later??

If the Jury could have had more choices to choose from to convict him of, such as Manslaughter, either First Degree or Second Degree, for this "heat of the moment" crime he committed, I feel they would have. And, given him a proper sentence of say 6-10 years. For this Pharmacist to be convicted of "First Degree Murder", and be sentenced to "LIFE In Prison", is just absolutely assinine!!!

That is what I'm in conflict with over this whole thing. Yes, the guy needed to be punished for those extra shots. But, was the guy an outstanding citizen and human all of his life 2 1/2 minutes before those extra shots were fired??? YES. And, to punish him in this way because 2 young SCUM children decided they wanted to commit a crime involving a firearm is just wrong.

Personally, If he has to spend the rest of his life in prison over this, I wish he'd had filled BOTH kids full of bullets. Take it as you might, but that's I how feel over this injustice.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
How nice of you guys to assume the 16 yr old was SCUM...:rolleyes:


When the guy came back and put 5 more into the now defenseless teen ...WAS cold blooded murder....he should be executed.

Well, fine upstanding citizens do not commit armed robbery. Only scum do.

What that homeowner did after the scum was down was murder. I don't think execution would be right in this case though.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Well, fine upstanding citizens do not commit armed robbery. Only scum do.

What that homeowner did after the scum was down was murder. I don't think execution would be right in this case though.

I know...it was a 16 yr old with a gun...or any other weapon...But I was once a disturbed youth...maybe I too was scum back then...glad people didn't react like you guys...I would not be typing this post....gee whiz...

Unless you've been down in the gutter it is hard to understand.

I n this case yes execution would be over the bend....

In this case the guy was down and out, injured and the guy came back and pumped 5 more into him....sounds extreme..
 
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