"Dream Act" immigration bill blocked in Senate

[layoutshooter]

How do you pay for your schools in your state? We pay our schools costs in property taxes. A BAD system to say the least since SO many don't pay their fair share, like those who live in mobile home parks, apartments etc. I don't know about that one family of which you speak, but EVERY U.S. taxpayer should be paid back for what was stolen from them, both by the illegals AND the Congress that has not only allowed this to happen but encouraged it.

 

[greg334]

I think you may understand this.

There are two sides of the issue, one is driven by those who look at the sovereignty of the country and the individual as being more important than one who wants to enter this country and enjoy the freedoms/rights that have been well established.

The other side of the issue has to do with money more than compassion or what others consider trivial crimes. When we have a country, Mexico, who helps people get over here without going through the agreed process (by the way of the treaties), it is a serious issue that breeches the concept of simple crimes committed and is for the most part an attack directly on the country. On top of that goes the smuggling of weapons, the criminals from other countries and people who for the most part are neither Mexican, or from any of the southern countries but form the Middle East and Asia who use Mexico as a gateway. I have yet touched on the crimes of human slavery or drugs.

NOW the issue is not whether we should allow those who came here as children to be part of our country, the issue is whether or not we want to continue to bend our basic laws or ignore them all together to serve the needs of a small minority of people.

There are a lot of cases where a crime has been committed and the family is either broken up or gone through hell. Family court is full of them and so are some of the federal courts, there are cases where children are used and those children are wards of the state. But if we look at it this way, when we deport the entire family, then there isn't a breaking up of the family. Their hardship isn't that they will faced with a removal of loved ones but rather the case that they will be removed from our country and returned to their own. In the case of a child being a citizen, that is still a solution, that child is in the care of the parent and the deportation of the parent is not breaking up the family - the child goes with them.

I know of two in similar situation as your example and both of them didn't expect to be given a pass but actually went back to their country, found jobs with their education and went through the process of returning legally. No special leeway was given and they had an adjustment to make when they returned home. Because their parents insisted on them retaining their heritage and culture as with a lot of Hispanic people, they had little problem with language, culture and fitting into their home country. One is now a naturalized citizens, served 10 years in the military after he went through the right process and the other is teaching in Mexico and here, is also naturalized and is fighting slavery on both sides that takes place with the open border. Their solution wasn't to cry about how unfair the system was or demand to pass a law that allowed them to take what they established and step over others who are going through the process but to go back to the right place to start, go through the system to obtain the goals of being proper citizens.

 

[witness23]

My English language and reading comprehension skills are just fine. There is nothing in your comments that even hint at sarcasm. Don't blame me because your ability to effectively communicate sarcasm is so weak that you have to get all pіssy and attempt to attack me personally using English language and the reading comprehension skills.

Take a note from Greg. He's clearly intelligent enough to disagree with what I said without attacking me in his response. He kept his comments to the issues. You, on the other hand, did not.

Wow, okay..... If you truly couldn't see the sarcasm in:

Yeah right Turtle, you're just makin' stuff up.

Considering most in here, including myself would not think you would just "make something up", I thought that would be your's or anybody else's first hint that I was being sarcastic.

Then you have this:

the odds of that happening again is a million to 1.

I would hope that anyone with the ability to grasp percentages would likely think that those odds were drastically high. Even when we are talking about Mexicans. Here I will make it obvious for those that cannot see the sarcasm in that last sentence.

Then this:

just lazy, no good, do for nothings, living off the Government teat.

The painting of Mexicans with a broad brush didn't give it away?I really thought the, "living of the Government teat" was an obvious attempt at sarcasm.

And what I thought was the clincher in my attempt at sarcasm:

I don't like those odds and I don't like me no Mexicans.

That didn't work? Really? hmmmmm?

Then you go on to say the following wich really has me befuddled.

you have to get all pіssy and attempt to attack me personally using English language and the reading comprehension skills.

p*ssy? I really, really thought you would've been able to see my sarcasm in what I wrote. I was truly surprised in the way you responded.

Attack? C'mon Turtle, if you took that as an attack you are becoming paranoid.

He's clearly intelligent enough to disagree with what I said without attacking me in his response.

Oh Turtle, Turtle, Turtle........so by my post you thought I was disagreeing with you? I am truly surprised of that. I am surprised that you could not see the sarcasm in my comments, I am surprised of the words ****y, attack, disagree in your posts following my comment. Next time, maybe you should PM me before posting. That way you would be clear that I agree with your example of how things aren't just BLACK and WHITE when it comes to immigration.

 

[Turtle]

NOW the issue is not whether we should allow those who came here as children to be part of our country, the issue is whether or not we want to continue to bend our basic laws or ignore them all together to serve the needs of a small minority of people.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the issue is exactly whether or not not we should allow whose who came here as children to be part of our country. That's what the bill was about, it's what the thread is about, and it's what the example of the kid from home is about.

Fact is, we've never had a consistent immigration policy. Prior to the most recent major change in immigration policy, thanks to the honnnooraaable Senator Ted Kennedy (I actually choked a little bit while typing that), the last major change was not to bend or ignore the law, but to actually change it so that it benefited and served a rather snotty minority of the people who wanted to keep western and southern Europeans as the preferred immigrants, and severely restrict everyone else.

Then along come dear old Teddy (God disturb his soul) who fought for and got sweeping changes that has now resulted in precisely what he predicted would not happen, where nearly unimpeded immigrants are rapidly turning this country into a majority of minorities.

The borders must be secured, in no uncertain terms. Nothing can be done with immigration until that happens. But, as in the example I used, those who came here at a young age and are productive law abiding members of society should not be punished (especially for the sins of their fathers and mothers in a decision an infant cannot make) simply because we as a nation allowed them to come here illegally, and then allowed them to stay.

 

[Turtle]

Wow, okay..... If you truly couldn't see the sarcasm in:

Aaaaand you're still talking about me, instead of the issues. Sheesh.

Get over it. If you meant it as sarcasm and I didn't get it, well then, OK. Not everybody gets my sarcasm or humor, either. But I try not to beat them up because they failed to get it. Time to move on.

 

[witness23]

Secure the borders for real, crack down on corporations and those that are taking advantage of "cheap" labor, pass the DREAM act bill that is held up in the Senate. In that order. If the Government can show the American people that they care one iota about the border and get together and pass some real legislation that will work, then the rest will fall in line.

I like the DREAM act, but its not time for it just yet. The border has got to be secured first. Unfortunately that's not going to happen anytime soon, even with the newly elected Congress. You are not going see any difference in Washington, even when the house changes over or if there is a Republican president in 2012. The politicians do not want to cut off cheap labor and or votes. It's good for both parties.

All the talk about the border is political folly, ratings for some news outlets and talk shows. Oh...and by the looks of it, conversation for the Soapbox.

 

[witness23]

Aaaaand you're still talking about me, instead of the issues. Sheesh..

Well, I was going to talk about the issues after my first post, but I had to point out to someone that I was being sarcastic and agreeing with him and not attacking him.

Get over it. If you meant it as sarcasm and I didn't get it, well then, OK. Not everybody gets my sarcasm or humor, either. But I try not to beat them up because they failed to get it. Time to move on.

Saaayyyyyyy you're sorry then. Say you made a mistake and you should've realized that I was being sarcastic. All will be forgiven then.

 

[Turtle]

If you (we, they) secure the borders for real, then we won't have to go after corporations and others who are using cheap labor, since the borders will be secured. Trash the DREAM Act since it's a Band Aid at most, and certainly trash the part about being able to come here at 15 years old as a path to citizenship.

But if the borders are secure, for real, the DREAM Act becomes moot, anyway, since at that time a workable immigration policy can be created which deals with both immigration as well as those who are already here illegally. People say "deport them all!" but these people are largely stupid, since you can't, even on your most productive day, round up and deport somewhere between 13 and 20 million illegals. They will have to be dealt with. Some will be deported, yes, but many will have a path to either permanent residency or citizenship. There's simply no way around that.

 

[Turtle]

Well, I was going to talk about the issues after my first post, but I had to point out to someone that I was being sarcastic and agreeing with him and not attacking him.

If you have to explain a joke in detail so that others will get it, then you told it poorly. Same thing with sarcasm.

Saaayyyyyyy you're sorry then. Say you made a mistake and you should've realized that I was being sarcastic. All will be forgiven then.

Are you a US citizen?

 

[Black Sheep]

Uhm, if you say so.

Second in a million - Pedro Ramirez, Fresno State's student body president, came here when he was 6 weeks old

Third in a million - Hector Lopez, former student body class president at Rex Putnam High School, came here when he was 3 years old

Considering how law abiding, upstanding and conscientous these young adults are in every other aspect of their lives, why is it that at some point they haven't gone to a legal aid office our some other pro bono organization and started the process to gain citizenship legally? Of course in CA the state laws seem to indirectly encourage them not to.

 

[witness23]

If you (we, they) secure the borders for real, then we won't have to go after corporations and others who are using cheap labor, since the borders will be secured.

You will still have illegals here and companies that will hire them for cheap labor after the border is secured. You even mention that below. The problems with illegal immigration will not magically disapear if the borders are actually secured. Which that will never happen anyway, you will still have illegals coming into the United States and companies willing to put them to work. It just won't be as easy and if they do, we would have policies and laws in place to deal with them accordingly. You can't even get the ball rolling without securing the borders

Trash the DREAM Act since it's a Band Aid at most, and certainly trash the part about being able to come here at 15 years old as a path to citizenship.

I guess I should've been more specific. If the borders were actually being secured, then you would obviously have to draft a bill after the border security has been addressed. A bill similar to the DREAM Act, if you will, one that would then have to be drafted after concerns have been addressed. A lot of the bill right now is concerning those that are here already here and those that have been born here. There is a lot of common sense stuff in the DREAM Act bill for the circumstances we are facing now. Again, I would like to see the border secured before the next step is taken.

But if the borders are secure, for real, the DREAM Act becomes moot, anyway, since at that time a workable immigration policy can be created which deals with both immigration as well as those who are already here illegally.

Exactly.

People say "deport them all!" but these people are largely stupid, since you can't, even on your most productive day, round up and deport somewhere between 13 and 20 million illegals.

I don't know if I'd call them "stupid", how about passionate? Ahhhh....who am I kidding, yeah they are pretty stupid, huh?

They will have to be dealt with. Some will be deported, yes, but many will have a path to either permanent residency or citizenship. There's simply no way around that

Yep. Any common sensed individual would take that approach to our situation.

Unfortunately, when it comes to politics and money, common sense is usually thrown out the window. So, like I said, if anyone is expecting any true immigration reform to happen any time soon, they will be most disappointed.

But hey, we will still have something to talk about here in the Soapbox. Some cable news outlets will have something to get everyone excited over and talk show hosts will have "old reliable" in there back pockets when ratings are falling.

 

[witness23]

Are you a US citizen?

Does it matter?

 

[Turtle]

Does it matter?

It was a joke, and an on-topic one at that.

 

[Turtle]

You will still have illegals here and companies that will hire them for cheap labor after the border is secured. You even mention that below.

Well, I mentioned that illegals would still be here. The fact that so many illegals come and go across the border as they please, and can take or send money back to Mexico at their whim, will be a thing of the past if the borders are secure. There will still be some who take advantage of illegals and lower pay, but it will not be on the scale we currently see. Illegals aren't as likely to take what amounts to slave wages if they know they can't get back home.

The problems with illegal immigration will not magically disapear if the borders are actually secured.

Maybe not, but it'll certainly put a dent in the flow of illegal immigrants.

Many of the problems will magically go away, tho, since securing the borders removes the incentive to keep on doing things like we (and the illegals) have been doing.

I guess I should've been more specific. If the borders were actually being secured, then you would obviously have to draft a bill after the border security has been addressed. A bill similar to the DREAM Act, if you will, one that would then have to be drafted after concerns have been addressed. A lot of the bill right now is concerning those that are here already here and those that have been born here. There is a lot of common sense stuff in the DREAM Act bill for the circumstances we are facing now. Again, I would like to see the border secured before the next step is taken.

The DREAM Act is a feel-good thing (that largely benefits Democrats in their struggle to get those much needed votes for generations to come), but mainly it's closing the barn doors after the horses have gotten out. Or more pointedly, it deals with the symptoms rather than dealing with the problem, with the symptoms being too many illegals utterly ingrained in our society, and the problem being that we failed utterly to secure the borders. Once you get the borders secure, then you can deal with the problems of having failed for so long to secure them. But the DREAM Act, if signed into law prior to securing the borders, would be nothing more than a "Come and get it!" to everyone not already here illegally.

I don't know if I'd call them "stupid", how about passionate? Ahhhh....who am I kidding, yeah they are pretty stupid, huh?

It's just a figure of speech.

But hey, we will still have something to talk about here in the Soapbox. Some cable news outlets will have something to get everyone excited over and talk show hosts will have "old reliable" in there back pockets when ratings are falling.

I have satellite TV in the truck, and I rarely watch cable news shows other than when they are giving the actual news, instead of sitting around giving personal commentary on the news and telling me what to think about it. In the mornings, HLN gives the news and not a whole lot of commentary. The rest of them (Fox and Feinds, CNN, Morning Joe) are mainly National Enquirer type journalism and rarely worth my time. On the rare occasion I do watch, I'm ticked off in short order because these journalists somehow got to be journalists without knowing what journalism is. As for Beck, Olberman and the others, they're high paid blowhards, nothing more, and I don't listen to them any more than I do the blowhard fools at the truck-stops. At this point a minute, maybe two, is all I can take of any of them.

I pay as much attention to Beck, at al, as I did the fool at the truck stop the other day who admonished me for wasting my money on Power Service, where all I really need to do is dump a quart of rubbing alcohol into my fuel tank because it does the same thing. Considering rubbing alcohol is 70% alcohol and 30% water, no, it won't do the same thing, and I told him as much. It might remove water or prevent freezing if it's 99% alcohol or denatured, but rubbing alcohol causes more problems than it solves, and it absolutely won't add lubricity or keep the injectors clean in a TDI engine, not to mention alcohol has a zero cetane boost. I said it might work fine in his truck, but I'm in a Sprinter.

He said all diesels are the same.

I pray he one day buys a Sprinter. <snort>

 

[Turtle]

Considering how law abiding, upstanding and conscientous these young adults are in every other aspect of their lives, why is it that at some point they haven't gone to a legal aid office our some other pro bono organization and started the process to gain citizenship legally? Of course in CA the state laws seem to indirectly encourage them not to.

You're assuming they haven't taken steps to legally gain citizenship. I don't know about Pedro Ramirez (first link), but I would guess that he has. You really should read the story in the second link about Hector Lopez. Not only has he taken steps, but his parents tried to get here legally in the first place, but fell victim to an immigration scam when the immigration papers were not filed for them as promised. Hector was deported as a teen, and was promptly pummeled in Mexico for not being Mexican enough, and now sits in an Arizona detention center, apart from friends and family, for months, awaiting his asylum hearing, rather than at his home in Portland, OR. Oh, yeah, we are a compassionate people.

As for Miguel (the kid at home), when he found out he was an illegal, it prompted his parents to do something they had been putting off, at the risk of being deported, which was to have their attorney begin the process of getting them either legal residency status or a path to citizenship. They have said that if they get deported, so be it, as long as their son can stay and be the American he always has been. They don't want Miguel to be punished for their actions. Miguel has filed for legal status and citizenship, as well. The way things stand last time I heard, since Miguel does not own property, he may very well be deported, while his parents might be allowed to remain as legal residents, and possibly citizens. Depends on how anal the bureaucrats want to be that day.

 

[witness23]

We got off track, but we both have the same realistic opinion on what needs to be done to start the fix on illegal immigration.

I have satellite TV in the truck, and I rarely watch cable news shows other than when they are giving the actual news, instead of sitting around giving personal commentary on the news and telling me what to think about it. In the mornings, HLN gives the news and not a whole lot of commentary. The rest of them (Fox and Feinds, CNN, Morning Joe) are mainly National Enquirer type journalism and rarely worth my time. On the rare occasion I do watch, I'm ticked off in short order because these journalists somehow got to be journalists without knowing what journalism is. As for Beck, Olberman and the others, they're high paid blowhards, nothing more, and I don't listen to them any more than I do the blowhard fools at the truck-stops. At this point a minute, maybe two, is all I can take of any of them.

Preaching to the choir brother. My sentiments exactly.

I pay as much attention to Beck, at al, as I did the fool at the truck stop the other day

Oh how I pray others would see the light such as yourself Turtle!

For the record, that includes Beck, Olbermann, Limbaugh, Hannity, Mathews, O'reilly, Scarborough, Mark Levine and Fox & Friends, I'm sure I'm missing a few.

 

[layoutshooter]

We got off track, but we both have the same realistic opinion on what needs to be done to start the fix on illegal immigration.



Preaching to the choir brother. My sentiments exactly.



Oh how I pray others would see the light such as yourself Turtle!

For the record, that includes Beck, Olbermann, Limbaugh, Hannity, Mathews, O'reilly, Scarborough, Mark Levine and Fox & Friends, I'm sure I'm missing a few.

What happened to Randy? Just ANOTHER blow hard, just from a different angle. Why is it you ONLY RAG on "Right Wing" idiots? There are just as many "Left Wing" idiots out there. Just look at Obama!

 

[witness23]

What happened to Randy?

Randy who?

Why is it you ONLY RAG on "Right Wing" idiots? There are just as many "Left Wing" idiots out there.

Read the list again.

I would also like for you to take notice of my sig line.

Cable news. Making the ignorant confident.....
I probably should add Internet Blogs also.

Just look at Obama!

That's funny layout, you know what really made it funny? The "stick out the tongue" emoticon, that was brilliant. <sarcasm>

 

[EnglishLady]

CNN Dec 20

Full report Report: Lenient passport law enforcement heightens risk along border - CNN.com


.........But, during a phase-in period that now has stretched over 18 months, very few travelers have been referred to secondary screening, the report from the Homeland Security department's inspector general's office found. That assertion -- the study concluded -- "increases the risk that someone could enter the U.S. under false pretense of citizenship."


On a typical day, some 700,000 people arrive at U.S. land borders, trying to get into the country. But every day, authorities say, some 4 percent -- or 28,000 people -- do not have the required documents.

In an effort to implement the law without clogging international borders, Customs and Border Protection instituted a phase that it called "informed compliance" to transition the law into effect over time. It sought compliance through a carrot-and-stick approach, by promising the benefit of speedier travel and punishment of secondary screening and travel delays.

The results have been mixed. Compliance has been greatest along the northern border, where 98 percent of travelers had the appropriate documents, the inspector general's report says. Along the southern border, compliance has been spottier, with an average of 93 percent of travelers having required documents.

Compliance is lowest at Texas border crossings,