Buicks vs CMV's

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
A car breaks down and pulls to the shoulder of the highway. It weighs 4000 pounds. It's hit by another car also weighing 4000 pounds. That's definitely a bad thing. Now, I was criticized in another thread for commenting that it's worse to be hit by a loaded cargo van. I stand behind the comment. All else being equal, if the car is hit by a loaded CV weighing 8000 pounds that's twice as bad. If it's hit by a ST weighing 28,000 pounds it's 7 times as bad and if it's hit by a TT weighing 80,000 pounds it's 20 times as bad based on physics and mathematics.

Does that mean vans should be regulated? That's open to debate. What it does mean for sure is there is a difference between a 4k pound vehicle and an 8k pound van hitting a car or any other object.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Now, I was criticized in another thread for commenting that it's worse to be hit by a loaded cargo van. I stand behind the comment.
Might depend on what it's loaded with ..... :rolleyes:

All else being equal, if the car is hit by a loaded CV weighing 8000 pounds that's twice as bad.
Twice as bad ..... in what way ?

Unfortunately (for you) it's rather simplistic logic that potentially may, or may not, actually be borne out by real world statistical evidence.

Apparently it isn't - otherwise you would be citing that evidence, given your zeal on the subject.

If it's hit by a ST weighing 28,000 pounds it's 7 times as bad and if it's hit by a TT weighing 80,000 pounds it's 20 times as bad based on physics and mathematics.
That would be great - if the matter of true concern was purely and strictly physics - however that is not the case - the actual matter is:

Potential injury and loss of life

While your premise sounds entirely reasonable, the question remains whether or not it actually correlates to the area of true concern.

Does that mean vans should be regulated? That's open to debate.
Yup ....

What it does mean for sure is there is a difference between a 4k pound vehicle and an 8k pound van hitting a car or any other object.
Well, of course there is ..... a difference ....

It's just that's it's apparently not the difference that you would really like it to be .....

Otherwise the Feds, states, and others (like Joanie Claybrook at Public Citizen) would be on it like a frickin' dog on a bone ......

BTW, just so you know: a commercial cargo vehicle weighing 10K, or under, that is not carrying an amount of Hazmat that requires placarding is not a CMV (commercial motor vehicle)
 
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aristotle

Veteran Expediter
A bicyclist is pulled over to the shoulder of the road. The bicycle weighs 60 pounds. Said bike is struck by a Mini Cooper weighing 3000 pounds. That's definitely a bad thing. Regulating Mini Coopers is open to debate. Should the Mini Cooper driver now be required to keep a logbook and observe HOS? Why not?

Every driver, regardless of vehicle type, has a mandate to operate safely at all times.

This discussion is purely about a FedEx driver wanting to kneecap the competition.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I used CMV as a general category to differentiate from personal motor vehicles. I clearly stated "all else being equal" to clarify that it was strictly a comment on the physics and the fact that one must multiply the impact energy based on the weight of the impacting vehicle. I did not post this to obtain a specific result. I posted it to state the fact that there is a difference in the impact between a car and a twice as heavy loaded cargo van, nothing more and nothing less. I do find it amusing that you know what is in my mind moreso than I. I'll remember that should I ever be confused about my own thoughts.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Another who knows the thoughts of others. How interesting. No, it has 1. nothing to do with my contracting to Fedex and 2. nothing to do with wanting anything in particular other than to refute those who suggested there's no difference in a cargo van and a personal car in the event of a crash. Physics dictates differently.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Another who knows the thoughts of others. How interesting. No, it has 1. nothing to do with my contracting to Fedex and 2. nothing to do with wanting anything in particular other than to refute those who suggested there's no difference in a cargo van and a personal car in the event of a crash. Physics dictates differently.

Dead is dead regardless of the GVWR. Leo, the cutoff point for unregulated vehicles is 10,000 LBS. You need to come to terms with this longstanding fact. The safety record for cargo vans mirrors that of the general public. What more could you possibly want?
 

gsmacker

Seasoned Expediter
So what's really being said is that the bigger the vehicle, the bigger the bang? Also the odds of such vehicle striking the bicyclist (did they hit the bike or passenger too?)being a expedite cargo van or a Buick Riveria are the same? The debate is that the cv should be regulated because it has more potential to do damage cause its on the road more correct? If you are argueing that cv's need more regulations on this stat, then here's one to consider. I believe (not 100% on this one) most accidents happen within a 5 mile radius of home. Well in this world of expediting we are rarely 5 miles from home. The odds are we are either home or 500 miles from there. So one could argue that now people who commute that 5 mile distance should be regulated more cause they are at a higher risk for accidents. And since I'm at it, the whole its too easy to get your cdl and drive statement and the gov should regulate it more. Really!!?? Might as well say you're guilty till proven innocent. I know I'm young and all but isn't it fair enough that if you go through and get a cdl you have a right to try driving? And if you aren't good at it (wether it be citations, accidents, or whatnot) then you will loose your cdl or hopefully find a different proffession? Lastly since this thread was started because of another thread, (that went off track) does anybody know if "that" driver was killed and if any details were known?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I used CMV as a general category to differentiate from personal motor vehicles.
Got it.

I clearly stated "all else being equal" to clarify that it was strictly a comment on the physics and the fact that one must multiply the impact energy based on the weight of the impacting vehicle. I did not post this to obtain a specific result.
I understand.

I posted it to state the fact that there is a difference in the impact between a car and a twice as heavy loaded cargo van, nothing more and nothing less.
And I would not disagree - yes, there is a difference.

Just as there is a difference between a semi and a straight .... or two straights, with differing laden weights .....

I do find it amusing that you know what is in my mind moreso than I.
Let me be clear: the only thing I really know of what's in your mind is what you choose to share with us.

I can (and do) draw conclusions based on the totality of the statements you have made, that I have read ..... but I do realize that those are only my conclusions, and might very well be incorrect .....

I'll remember that should I ever be confused about my own thoughts.
Leo, as part of my own personal philosophy I have it as a goal to always be willing to at least consider helping ...... so if you ever feel the need, please don't hesitate ......

It is always a pleasure to be of service to others, even if only in some small way .... :p
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes, the premise sounds entirely reasonable, but when it comes to physics, "All else being equal" doesn't really apply, since "twice as bad" doesn't actually result in twice as severity of injury, twice the number of injuries, or twice the number of fatalities. So clearly, the parameters "all else being equal" doesn't apply, as "all else" isn't equal at all, not when actual physics gets involved.

In an overly simplistic illustration, which on the surface would almost confirm the "twice as heavy = twice as bad" theory, if a moving body crashes into a solid, non-yielding wall at 20 miles per hour, the kinetic energy dissipated in the crash = 1/2 M x 20 x 20 = 1/2 M x 400 = M x 200. But if it crashes into the wall at 40 miles per hour, the energy dissipated in the collision is 1/2 M x 40 x 40 = 1/2 M x 1600 = M x 800. Thus, four times as much energy is involved in the second crash as in the first (M x 800/M x 200 = 4). The speed has doubled but the energy has quadrupled. In this case, where kinetic energy alone is accounted for, twice as heavy (or twice as fast) would be four times as bad. The same holds true for wind resistance where twice as fast means four times the resistance.

But don't throw a party, yet, Leo. Several other factors must be accounted for, like the Friction of the tires of the stationary Buick, for example, with S(mph) = 5.5 x sqrt (Cd x length of skid).

The physics of a car cash include Newton's Laws of Motion, and the dynamic forces acting within Newton's Laws: mass, velocity, acceleration, among many others.

Newtons' Laws of Motion
First Law: "A body does not alter its state of motion without the influence of an external force." That is, there is no change in the velocity of a body (neither in magnitude nor in direction) unless some other force acts on that body.

Second Law: "The net resultant force applied to the body is equal to the first time-derivative of the momentum function."

Force = Mass x Acceleration.

This relationship is not so much a natural law as a rule for assigning a magnitude to forces which is necessary in these types of calculations.

Third Law: "For every applied force there is an equal and oppositely directed reactive force." You push on the wall, and the wall pushes back. The pusher and the pushed, the striker and the struck both experience forces of the same magnitude but of opposite direction.

We're dealing with force, mass, inertia, torque, velocity, acceleration, friction, momentum, work, energy, and power.

Not even accounting for the variations of the crash-force absorbing construction of the different vehicles (the results of many government and industry backed crash tests), which would make all else even less equal, let's do the math, shall we? For the sake of simplicity, I'll keep speed low, which will make it easier to extrapolate for higher speed crashes.


An 8000 pound cargo van runs into a 4000 pound Buick.
The road is asphalt and the coefficient of drag is 0.7, the van is going just 10 miles per hour, the Buick is at rest.

The momentum of the system before the collision is:

Momentum = Mass (van) x Velocity (van) + Mass (Buick) x Velocity (Buick)
= (8000 x 10) + (0 x 4000)
= 80,000

Let's assume the external forces acting on the system during the impact are minimal (the brakes of the van are off) momentum is conserved. Thus, after the accident the following relation holds true where V is post-impact Velocity of the vehicles:

Momentum before = Momentum after
80,000 = (80,000 x V) + (4,000 x V)

V = 80,000/84,000 = 0.95 mph

where "V" is now the post impact velocity of the vehicles. (We assume here that the van and the Buick are moving with the same velocity after impact. The introduction of the Buick being in Park would make a difference, but it's not necessary for this exercise, and would only complicate things). Thus, the van loses 9.05 mph = 13.3 ft/sec due to the action of the retarding impact force, acceleration and deceleration.

One "g" is an acceleration equal to that generated by a free fall in the earth's gravitational field, i.e., 32.2 feet per second per second. Thus, a body acted on by a 0.5 g acceleration experiences a force equal to half its weight. This force acts in the direction of the acceleration.

If the Buick is shortened about 8" in this impact, then the distance through which the retarding force acts is about 12" (the van starts moving during the impact; assume it moves about 4") so that the van travels about 1' during the impact with an average velocity of about 8 ft/sec. The duration of the impact can be estimated as follows:

Distance = Velocity x Time
Time = Distance/Velocity
T = 1 ft/(8 ft/sec) = 0.125 sec

So the van decelerates from 14.7 ft/sec to 1.3 ft/sec in a time of 0.125 sec. Its average deceleration is:

13.4 ft/sec / 0.125 sec = 107 ft/sec/sec = 3.33 g

The average force acting on the Buick then is 3.33 x 8,000 pounds = 26,260 pounds.

This is also the force that acts on the van (Newton's Third Law: Every force has an equal and opposite reaction force): So that the average acceleration of the van is: 8,000/9990 = 3 ft/sec/sec = 0.8 g


Now, do all of the same math for a 4000 pound car that hits the same 4000 Buick, and the end result is the average force acting on the Buick would be 19,695 pounds, and not the predicted 13,130 pounds. The reason is, less energy is lost due to friction, deceleration and other forces, and more of the force is retained within the moving vehicle and is transferred directly to the stationary Buick. A vehicle weighing twice as much, it turns out, is 1.5 times as bad, not 2.0 times as bad.

So, while an 8000 pound cargo van is clearly more dangerous than a 4000 car, it ain't all that much more dangerous. And certainly not more enough to require the same regulation as far heavier vehicles.

But other than not much, what does all this really mean to us expediters? Not much. All it means is that until cargo vans start causing more accidents and more fatalities, no amount of wishing from those who do log will get the DOT to regulate cargo vans.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Does it really matter?

I mean a bicycle can run over a person and kill them.
It only really matters if you want bicyclists and van drivers to log. Because, the reasons for wanting them to log would, in the end, have to be the same, since there is no other justification other than "they could kill someone" for wanting it.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Why do people want to impose their standards on me? They don't have my metabolism, my lifestyle, my sleep needs, and yet everyone should be the same by some sort of magic formula.
Yeah I know studies say this and studies say that...blah, blah...
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes, there are factors such as bumper heights, tire inflation pressures, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. that will have some effect. One could (and many have) write an entire book on the physics. The simplified and short version is as weight increases the energy transferred also increases. This thread has nothing to do with anything other than affirming the correctness of my earlier statement.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well, your earlier statement was made because, "Now, I was criticized in another thread for commenting that it's worse to be hit by a loaded cargo van. I stand behind the comment." So what's the point of stating here that as weight increases, the energy transferred also increases? We know that. It's obvious. It's not the simple math of twice the weight means twice the energy transfer, though, but it's still an increase and is still obvious.

However, when the increased weight and therefore the increased energy transfer argument is used to try and justify vans having to log, it all breaks down, since the increased danger is statistically insignificant insofar as the end results. There is a real number for the weight of a vehicle which begins to justify having to log. There mere fact that one vehicle weighs more than another doesn't justify it. If it did, then people would have different HOS restrictions based on the weight of the vehicle they were driving, and heavier vehicles would require more restrictive restrictions than would lighter vehicles.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
If it did, then people would have different HOS restrictions based on the weight of the vehicle they were driving, and heavier vehicles would require more restrictive restrictions than would lighter vehicles.
Perhaps what we cargo van drivers should really do is band together and start a campaign to reduce the available drive and duty times of those currently having to run under HOS - since all available studies and data points to them being the clear and present danger .....

Maybe to 9 hours for anything up to 26K, 7 hours for straights over that, and 5 hours for E-units, say ?

I mean, afterall, supposedly there are more of us than of them - so we got 'em outnumbered ..... and it might possibly mean alot more loads for us ......

Skip "Ban The Van" I say .... let's instead go with:

"Deflate The Straight !"

and

"Strip The Semi !"

Yeah .... that's the ticket (...... NOT)
 

Steady Eddie

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
We have all seen accidents- Big trucks, Small Trucks, Cars, Vans.....Some (most were regulated). Just look around you in a snow storm! Lots of regulated trucks laying on their side.

In short, you can not regulated Stupid.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
A car breaks down and pulls to the shoulder of the highway.

If the driver of the car was required to perform a pre-trip inspection this breakdown may have been prevented and this scenario would be moot.

Hey, I'm Moot and weigh 185 pounds. If a Mini Cooper hit me doing 63 mph how long would it take the Riviera to get to the train station?
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Riviera guys fly business class, they don't take the train.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
This discussion is purely about Sir Isaac Newton, laws of physics and a simplified presentation of how the heavier the impacting vehicle the worse the damage to the "impactee".
 
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