Wisconsin Union Woes

[davekc]

This may be part of the problem if it is accurate.

Heard about unrest in Wisconsin ? This is what it is all about.....




For anyone who thinks teachers are underpaid this is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. Look up your own district !!!

The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% towards their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too.

AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work)

TEACHERS:

Milwaukee $86,297
Elmbrook $91,065
Germantown $83,818
Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
Men Falls $81,099
West Bend $82,153
Waukesha $92,902
Sussex $82,956
Mequon $95,297
Kettle Mor $87,676
Muskego $91,341

STAFF:

Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525
Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519
Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222
Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!)
Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835


UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone):

Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828
Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000
Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??)

(source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)

How about some other "public servant job" ??? What do they make?

Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):

* Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
* Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598
* 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000
* 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000


MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):

136 Drivers made more than $70,000
54 Drivers made more than $80,000
18 Drivers made more than $90,000
8 Drivers made more than $100,000
Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ)

(The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.)
AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CONTINUE PAYING 100% OF THEIR GENEROUS RETIREMENT?
THEY HAVE SHUT DOWN SCHOOLS AS THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY 5.8% OF IT THEMSELVES
....REALLY?
THAT IS SHOCKING!!!!!! HOW OH HOW DID WE EVER ALLOW, AS A TAX PAPER, THINGS TO GET SO OUT OF CONTROL ??!!!!!!! REMEMBER WHEN THE SCANDAL WITH OF THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE, AMENT, WHO HAD WRITTEN IN THE UNBELIEVABLE AMOUNTS THAT WOULD BE GUARANTEED TO ALL COUNTY RETIREES, ESPECIALLY HIMSELF, WHEN THEY RETIRED. WHEN IT WAS UNCOVERED MANY COUNTY EMPLOYEES TOOK AN EARLY RETIREMENT RATHER THAN RISK LOOSING THAT MONEY......I KNOW BECAUSE THESE EARLY RETIREES WHERE SHARING THIS INFORMATION WITH ME WHILE THEY WERE SPENDING 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON NEW FURNITURE BECAUSE, AT THE YOUNG AGE OF 50, THEY WERE RETIRED FROM THE COUNTY WITH HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY AND...LAUGHING ABOUT IT !!!!!

 

[Pilgrim]

Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):
* Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
* Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598
* 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000
* 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000

Question about the garbagemen: are these six-figure guys actually riding on the backs of trucks, or are they in some sort of administrative position?

 

[Dabus1952]

Dave I always find your information accurate for the most part. Today I will agree to disagree with you. I will start with teachers My daughter is a teacher in Racine Wi.She earns about 37,000 a year. She runs a summer school program Therefore working 11 months out of the year. She teaches in an area where people arent earning much money. Therefore she buys school supplies for children out of her pocket.In the hay day before the rich politians, sold out our country, along with the big corporations. People in Wisconsin had good paying jobs in industry. Today Milwaukee is the 4th poorest city in all of America.
As for Milwaukee county transit , I spent my career there as a bus driver and Instructor in the training division.In order for a driver to earn 70 to 80 thousand dollars he would work about 60 hours a week. As for pension with them we invest in a 457 plan similar to 401K plans.We pay for health care just like anyone else.As for the big figures it is all the upper managment who sits on there dead butts all day in the lunch room playing cards or outdoors smoking cigarettes. We wont mention the amount of bus drivers who get bricked. punched, cussed at or bus shot at .We wont mention about four years ago before I retiried we had a gang shooting on bus that killed two people.If you think you can find people to do that job for $9.00 an hour good luck as when we hiried 90 % of the people couldnt pass our test nor back ground checks nor drug test.The unitied auto workers made more in an auto plant then our bus drivers or teachers.Once again the media is selling the public a bunch Of bull crap. The people sreaming should be foucsed on the CEO s and politians in this country who have all the sweet heart deals.I too am a business owner, but I feel everyone deserves to earn a decent living.You should have a right to collective bargaing . By the way it insures a mediator from the outside comes in to mediate. Oh I forgot to mention we received a huge pay increase over 4 years of 1.5 % Ask Scott Walker what he is earning as Govenor .Ask him about his health care his pension. Or ask Congressmen Senators Mayors of large cities about there sweet heart deals.I need say more . You need not agree but people need to know the true facts not the media's version of selling papers or telivision.

 

[layoutshooter]

It does NOT matter what they earn or don't earn. They work for the TAX PAYER, not the city or the state. They, just by the math, earn more than those who pay them. The taxes to pay these people are putting people out of their homes. NO ONE is worth that.

 

[buckwheat]

This may be part of the problem if it is accurate.

Heard about unrest in Wisconsin ? This is what it is all about.....




For anyone who thinks teachers are underpaid this is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. Look up your own district !!!

The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% towards their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too.

AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work)

TEACHERS:

Milwaukee $86,297
Elmbrook $91,065
Germantown $83,818
Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
Men Falls $81,099
West Bend $82,153
Waukesha $92,902
Sussex $82,956
Mequon $95,297
Kettle Mor $87,676
Muskego $91,341

STAFF:

Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525
Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519
Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222
Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!)
Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835


UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone):

Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828
Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000
Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??)

(source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)

How about some other "public servant job" ??? What do they make?

Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):

* Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
* Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598
* 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000
* 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000


MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):

136 Drivers made more than $70,000
54 Drivers made more than $80,000
18 Drivers made more than $90,000
8 Drivers made more than $100,000
Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ)

(The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.)
AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CONTINUE PAYING 100% OF THEIR GENEROUS RETIREMENT?
THEY HAVE SHUT DOWN SCHOOLS AS THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY 5.8% OF IT THEMSELVES
....REALLY?
THAT IS SHOCKING!!!!!! HOW OH HOW DID WE EVER ALLOW, AS A TAX PAPER, THINGS TO GET SO OUT OF CONTROL ??!!!!!!! REMEMBER WHEN THE SCANDAL WITH OF THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE, AMENT, WHO HAD WRITTEN IN THE UNBELIEVABLE AMOUNTS THAT WOULD BE GUARANTEED TO ALL COUNTY RETIREES, ESPECIALLY HIMSELF, WHEN THEY RETIRED. WHEN IT WAS UNCOVERED MANY COUNTY EMPLOYEES TOOK AN EARLY RETIREMENT RATHER THAN RISK LOOSING THAT MONEY......I KNOW BECAUSE THESE EARLY RETIREES WHERE SHARING THIS INFORMATION WITH ME WHILE THEY WERE SPENDING 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON NEW FURNITURE BECAUSE, AT THE YOUNG AGE OF 50, THEY WERE RETIRED FROM THE COUNTY WITH HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY AND...LAUGHING ABOUT IT !!!!!

Is there a source or link available for this information?

 

[layoutshooter]

Is that 37,000 wages or total compensation? If it is wages only that is not all that bad. What does she pay towards her pension? What does she pay towards her health care?

As a federal employee I paid 7% towards my pension AND 40% towards my health care. NO ONE, except the military, should get these things for free.

 

[Dabus1952]

Layshooter they pay a portion of there health care .They to invest in a 457 plan. I cant speak for all school districts. As for Milwaukee county tranist This is not run by the County. It is run by Milwaukee Transport services. As for transit systems this is almost all federal money and fare box revenue .The state divides there transportation funds many ways including roads etc.Milwaukee county transit receives a small percentage.

 

[layoutshooter]

Layshooter they pay a portion of there health care .They to invest in a 457 plan. I cant speak for all school districts. As for Milwaukee county tranist This is not run by the County. It is run by Milwaukee Transport services. As for transit systems this is almost all federal money and fare box revenue .The state divides there transportation funds many ways including roads etc.Milwaukee county transit receives a small percentage.

IF it is run off of a federal subsidy it is WORSE!! Why should truck drivers pay to give city people cheap bus rides? NO fuel tax money should EVER go to public transportation. Those systems should be their own way or go out of business. I cannot afford them. Even though I subsidize them I STILL have to pay a fare to use them. DOUBLE taxation WITHOUT ANY representation. NOT a good idea.

By the way, I pay 100% of my and my wifes, health insurance. Why can't everyone else? Why should the tax payer subsidize teachers benefits? I can barely afford our own and now, thanks to Obama Care, our HSA policy is going away. I cannot afford anything else. Why should I pay for someone else's? My wife comes first, then mine, and if I have ANYTHING left MAYBE I MIGHT contribute to someone else. Their health care AND pension is NONE of my concern OR responsibility.

 

[layoutshooter]

Put it this way. When my dad bought his house his ENTIRE house payment including ALL taxes was under $80 per month. That INCLUDES snow removal.

His TAX only bill is now OVER $2300 per year, NO snow removal. MOST of those taxes go to schools, he is 88, NO kids in school and gets NO pay raises. FAIR? He can no longer afford it. What is the unions solution? MORE pay raises and FIGHT paying anything more.

 

[aristotle]

The Big Government gravy train is over. We are a debtor nation. Our federal government operates on debt. Many of our states and cities are broke as well. The days of borrowing money to mask over problems are dwindling. Those who depend on government payrolls, or have future hopes of drawing from the public largesse, face a bumpy ride.

Taxpayers are beginning to question the lavish pay and benefits granted to government employees, dependents and retirees. Government unions are at odds with the common taxpayer. Taxpayers are picking up 100% of the tab. The government union labor strife going on in Wisconsin,Indiana and Ohio will spread as we are entering a period of lower expectations. Concessions, givebacks. Delayed, deferred or diminished delivery of government services. Government promised too much to too many for too long.

Much like the ship Titanic, America has been running full speed in the dark toward an iceberg of debt. Let 'er rip... or change course quickly.

 

[Dabus1952]

I too agree that goverment has been on a crash course for many years. I am only defending a myth about the transit system and some teacher jobs .There were many consessions made.( A proven fact ) I am not here to debate if the system is broken.If you read into it I mentioned the Politians several times. The federal goverment not only sends money to transit systems, what about the airlines, or the farmers we pay not to grow a crop. Why dont we talk about the generations of welfare abuse, Social Security disabilty abuse .Section 8 housing.Why dont we talk about the millions that are spent per year to educate illegals .Provide them with free health care.Why not talk about the millions we wasted on the bank bail outs .or auto makers.The list goes on and on. At the end of the day it is forgotten about , so our great elected officals can get votes in elections.I too am for reform but darn it lets start from the top.Lets fix the entire system ,I too am a tax payer.

 

[AMonger]

In the hay day before the rich politians, sold out our country, along with the big corporations.

That part you got right. NAFTA and GATT and the people that promoted them sold our nation down the river. I've heard conspiracy theorists call it "the planned shutdown of America." I'm starting to think like them.

You should have a right to collective bargaing .

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! There is absolutely no right to bargain collectively, especially with the taxpayers. You have the right to request that the company bargain with you collectively, and you have the right to all walk out en masse if they decline. Collective bargaining is a privilege because you're compelling performance from someone else, your rights trumping theirs. Then union thugs get the government involved to prevent the company from replacing the lazy union thugs permanently, so they can go back to their hourly 45-minute coffee breaks. And now bankrupting the states as well, taking the public's money.

Ask Scott Walker what he is earning as Govenor .Ask him about his health care his pension. Or ask Congressmen Senators Mayors of large cities about there sweet heart deals.I need say more .

I don't think anyone would mistake me for someone that loves the gummint, but the fact is that a governor or mayor has far more responsibility than a union worker (yes, that's an oxymoron) and is essentially on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and deserves to make more than a bus driver, teacher, or factory worker. Congressmen and senators do nothing worthwhile and should be on subsistence wages and nothing more.

 

[greg334]

Why dont we talk about the generations of welfare abuse, Social Security disabilty abuse .Section 8 housing.Why dont we talk about the millions that are spent per year to educate illegals .

This is a great set of questions but they can't be addressed due to the fact that many of these programs have too many people getting money.

I think that ending Medicare and Medicaid is a great start.

putting strict limits on welfare and returning back to the time when assets were counted - no more new cars in the drive or that flat screen TV sitting in the living room.

How about cutting social security when a person grosses over 50k, they can get back the money they "put" into the system even though they are not entitled to it, but beyond that, nothing.

But even here, too many get their monthly check where they feel entitled to it because it is their right. Nothing can be solved until someone stands up and changes it because without the change, it simply won't be around.

 

[bobwg]

It is estimated the protesters caused about $350,000 damage to the State Capitol the unions should pay for the damage

 

[layoutshooter]

How did "peaceful", "law abiding" citizens partaking in a protest manage to cause all that damage? Surely no union worker would EVER cause damage on purpose. They should be looking into criminal charges if this story is correct.

 

[chefdennis]

What people seem to overlook, well really don't they just ignore it when they say that teachers and public employees contribute to their own healthcare and retirement is that teachers (unless they work in the private sector) are paid with tax dollars and all their money is taxpayer dollars, without taxpayers, they have nothing.its the taxpayer that pays wages and benefits...and the taxpayers are fed up with payng, being asked continually for more and getting less in return...

The fact is all of these "public" employees are a failure of their unions success...they played their heavy hand far to long and now they are going to pay a price...

I was raised in a heavily union household and have cousins that are teacher, these public ecor unions have out lived their time...

Teachers Wonder, Why the Scorn?

By TRIP GABRIEL
Published: March 2, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/education/03teacher.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

The jabs Erin Parker has heard about her job have stunned her. Oh you pathetic teachers, read the online comments and placards of counterdemonstrators. You are glorified baby sitters who leave work at 3 p.m. You deserve minimum wage.

“You feel punched in the stomach,” said Ms. Parker, a high school science teacher in Madison, Wis., where public employees’ two-week occupation of the State Capitol has stalled but not deterred the governor’s plan to try to strip them of bargaining rights.

Ms. Parker, a second-year teacher making $36,000, fears that under the proposed legislation class sizes would rise and higher contributions to her benefits would knock her out of the middle class.

“I love teaching, but I have $26,000 of student debt,” she said. “I’m 30 years old, and I can’t save up enough for a down payment” for a house. Nor does she own a car. She is making plans to move to Colorado, where she could afford to keep teaching by living with her parents.

Around the country, many teachers see demands to cut their income, benefits and say in how schools are run through collective bargaining as attacks not just on their livelihoods, but on their value to society.

Even in a country that is of two minds about teachers — Americans glowingly recall the ones who changed their lives, but think the job with its summers off is cushy — education experts say teachers have rarely been the targets of such scorn from politicians and voters.

Republican lawmakers in half a dozen states are pressing to unwind tenure and seniority protections in place for more than 50 years. Gov. Chris Christie’s dressing down of New Jersey teachers in town-hall-style meetings, accusing them of greed, has touched a populist vein and made him a national star.

Mayors are threatening mass layoffs, including in New York City and in Providence, R.I., where all 1,926 teachers were told last week they would lose their jobs — a largely symbolic gesture since most will be hired back.

Some experts question whether teaching, with its already high attrition rate — more than 25 percent leave in the first three years — will attract high-quality recruits in the future.

“It’s hard to feel good about yourself when your governor and other people are telling you you’re doing a lousy job,” said Steve Derion, 32, who teaches American history in Manahawkin, N.J. “I’m sure there were worse times to be a teacher in our history — I know they had very little rights — but it feels like we’re going back toward that direction.”

Those pressing for teachers’ concessions insist the changes will improve schools.

“This is in no way, shape or form an attack on teachers; it is a comprehensive effort to reform a system,” said Tony Bennett, the superintendent of public instruction in Indiana, where demonstrators have also besieged the Capitol in opposition to bills supported by Dr. Bennett and Gov. Mitch Daniels, a Republican. The legislation would limit teachers’ collective bargaining to pay and benefits and allow principals to set class sizes and school hours and to lay off teachers based on job performance, not years of service.

Dr. Bennett said the state teachers’ union had distorted the legislation to create fear.

There are signs of a backlash in favor of teachers. A New York Times poll taken last week found that by nearly two to one — 60 to 33 percent — Americans opposed restricting collective bargaining for public employees. A similar majority — including more than half of Republicans — said the salaries and benefits of most public employees were “about right” or “too low.”

As for teachers’ mood, an annual poll sponsored by the MetLife Foundation found in 2009, before this year’s blast of opprobrium, that 59 percent were “very satisfied,” up from 40 percent in 1984. In interviews this week, even teachers facing layoffs or pay cuts said they felt a calling to be in the classroom.

“I put my heart and soul into teaching,” said Lindsay Vlachakis, 25, a high school math teacher in Madison. “When people attack teachers, they’re attacking me.”

Although crushing state budget deficits are the proximate cause of lawmakers’ pressure, a further justification for many of the proposed measures comes from the broad accountability movement, which aims to raise student achievement and sees teachers’ unions as often blocking the way.

Accountability, particularly as measured by student test scores, has brought sweeping changes to education and promises more, but many teachers feel the changes are imposed with scant input from classroom-level educators. Nearly 70 percent said in the MetLife survey that their voices were not heard in education debates.

Chester E. Finn Jr., president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, a conservative-leaning education policy group, said the decline in teachers’ status traced to the success of unions in paying teachers and granting job security based on their years of service, not ability.

“They are reaping a bitter harvest that they didn’t individually plant but their profession has planted over 50 years, going from a respected profession to a mass work force in which everyone is treated as if they are interchangeable, as in the steel mills of yesteryear,” Mr. Finn said.

Those who oppose the gathering momentum to evaluate teachers based in significant part on student test scores argue that it will drive good teachers from the neediest schools.

Anthony Cody, who taught middle-school science for 18 years and now mentors new teachers in the Oakland, Calif., school district, said many leave at the three-year mark for higher salaries and easier conditions elsewhere.

Oakland has many poor students and schools at the bottom on standardized tests — schools the federal Education Department identifies as candidates to be sweepingly overhauled by removing half their staffs.

“What we need in these schools is stability,” said Mr. Cody, 52, who writes a blog about teaching. “We need to convince people that if they invest their career in working with these challenging students, then we will reward them and appreciate them. We will not subject them to arbitrary humiliation in the newspaper. We will not require they be evaluated and paid based on test scores that often fluctuate greatly beyond the teacher’s control.”

Mr. Cody acknowledged that many of his younger colleagues, who have come of age in the era of test scores used to gauge progress and accountability — first for schools, and now increasingly for teachers — are not as resistant to the concept.

“I’m not too concerned or worried about that,” said Kevin Tougher, 31, who teaches third grade in Lake Grove, N.Y., where a new statewide evaluation system will rate teachers based 40 percent on their students’ test scores or comparable measures.

Last month Mr. Tougher was notified that because of his lack of seniority, he will be laid off, or “excessed,” this year under the state’s proposed cuts to school aid. A union activist, he believes seniority-based layoffs are fair.

“The seniority part, I get that,” said Mr. Tougher, who is single. “While it would be a bummer if I were excessed for next year, that’s just how things go sometimes.”

and from a personal point of view, I don't believe those poll numbers supporting the teachers or unions, union membership does not enjoy the majorities they once did and the "baclash" spoke of might be there, but it will be against those public employees...