Who should you use to send Hazmat?

[ATeam]

I would say that you're my daddy and that you are right and that I and the people I know who do HAZMAT shipping for a living are wrong.

It is probably best to not use the "people I know who do HAZMAT shipping for a living are wrong" argument. I'd just come back with people I met who do HAZMAT shipping for a living and have been proven to be wrong, and with people I know who are HAZMAT experts who are right.

I have turned to people I know for assistance in this debate but let's leave the people we know out of it. There are lots of HAZMAT professionals out there and it is probably safe to say that eveyr one of them have been wrong about HAZMAT at one time or another. Instead of singing "My dog's bigger than your dog," let's stay focused on the regulations themselves.

I know I won't have to say any if that, however, because of two very simple things: the unambiguous requirement that you must have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement in order to be able to legally haul HAZMAT, ...

That is not the requirement.

It is not the HAZMAT status of an item that triggers the HAZMAT-endorsed CDL requirement, it is the placards.

Say that you and I are standing at a busy loading dock where some freight with a HAZMAT label (label, not placard) on it is on a skid waiting to be loaded. And say there is also a truck there that is loaded, sealed and placarded.

If you pointed to the placarded truck and asked me if a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required to DRIVE it, I would say yes, absolutely. If placards are required on the truck, a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required to drive it.

If you pointed to the skid and asked me if a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required to HAUL it, I would say that I do not know. In order to answer that question, I would have to know more about the material on the skid.

What is its hazard class (gasses, corrosive, etc.)? Is it Table 1 or Table 2 material? If it is Table 2 material, does it weigh more than 1,001 lbs.? The answers to those questions will tell me what the vehicle placarding requirements are. If placards are required, then I would say, yes, a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required to drive a truck that is loaded with that skid.

Notice the leap you are making here. Notice the difference between "haul" and "drive." You don't drive HAZMAT, you transport it in a truck. You don't haul a truck, you drive it. Notice too how "haul" is too imprecise of a term to be useful in arriving at a definition of HAZMAT.

You are going straight from Table 1 and 2 to the HAZMAT-endorsed CDL requirement, but that is not what the regulations do. When stating the circumstances in which a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required to drive a truck, the regs say nothing about the material being transported. They talk about the truck being placarded or not. If the truck is placarded, a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required. If the truck is not placarded, a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is not required.

While it is very common for drivers to say in casual conversation that they have a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL and because of that they can haul HAZMAT, a careful look at the regs show that there is no such thing as a license to haul HAZMAT. There is only a CDL that is HAZMAT endorsed. The endorsement does not license you to haul HAZMAT. It licenses you to drive a placarded truck.

Table 1 and Table 2 do not tell you what kind of driver's license is required. They tell you what kind of placards, if any, to put on the truck. To know whether or not a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required, you must first know the placard requirement.

You are saying that because a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required to haul HAZMAT, the stuff being hauled is HAZMAT. The error in that resides in the assumption that you can know from Tables 1 and 2, and from the weight of the material being transported, what kind of license is required. That assumption is incorrect because the tables say nothing at all about licenses. They talk only about placarding requirements.

To know if a material or substance is HAZMAT, you do not look first at Table 1 and Table 2 to determine the placard requirements. You look first at the Hazardous Materials Table to see if the item in question is listed there.

Further, it is impossible to know from Table 1 and Table 2 whether the item in question is HAZMAT. You can view those tables here (page 2 of the .pdf). Notice that the tables do not include the names of any substance or material. They only include the hazard class.

To determine the hazard class of a material or substance, you must first know its name. You get that off the shipping papers and the packaging. Then you look up the name in the Hazardous Materials Table to find it's hazard class. Then you go to Tables 1 and 2 to determine the placard requirement (or use the placard advisory column in the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook).

It is only after you know the placard requirement that you can know if a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is required to drive a vehicle into which the item(s) in question will be loaded. And you can't know the placard requirement until you know the hazard class. And you can't know the hazard class until you look the item up in the Table of Hazardous Materials. And you can't look the item up in the table until you know its name. And you can't know its name until you see it on the shipping papers and/or packaging.

The requirement to have a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL to drive a vehicle in certain circumstances is not the place from which to begin a definition of HAZMAT. It is the place where you end up.

... and HAZMAT is defined as those materials listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials which require placarding.

I'm sorry to disagree, Turtle, but that is incorrect. The Table of Hazardous Materials tells you nothing about placarding requirements. You can view that table here. Notice the column headings. Notice that while many materials and substances are named in the table, and that the table columns provide information relating to the named items, the table says nothing about placard requirements.

As stated above, to know the placard requirements, you must first know the hazard class. The hazard class is provided in the Table of Hazardous Materials. Once you know that, you go to Table 1 and Table 2 to determine the placard requirements.

You correctly pointed out earlier that the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook is not an official publication. Yet it is commonly used by drivers who haul HAZMAT. Oops! Excuse me. I should have said it is commonly used by drivers who drive HAZMAT-laden vehicles.

In that book, where the Table of Hazardous Materials is partially published (columns 8, 9 and 10 are left out because they are not of immediate relevance to drivers), two additional columns that are not from the Table of Hazardous Materials are added for driver convenience.

While those columns are convenient because they give you the ERG page number and the placard requirements from Tables 1 and 2, you are not looking at the true Table of Hazardous Materials when you are looking at those pages. A casual glance at those pages suggest it is all one table, but that is not the case and a careful look at the column headings on those pages will show that.

Consequently, the conclusion cannot be drawn from the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook that "... HAZMAT is defined as those materials listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials which require placarding" since you are not looking at a true reproduction of the Table of Hazardous Materials.

Nor can the conclusion be drawn from Tables 1 and 2 that "HAZMAT is defined as those materials listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials which require placarding" because there is no way to identify a material or substance by name in those tables.

Now, let me take a little detour to point to the placarding regs. I do so not to talk about placards but to show that the regs do not talk about HAZMAT as something that is HAZMAT because a vehicle in which it is hauled must be placarded. The regs talk about HAZMAT as something that is already defined as HAZMAT and that may or may not trigger the requirement to placard the vehicle in which it is loaded.

§ 172.500 Applicability of placarding
requirements.
(a) Each person who offers for transportation
or transports any hazardous
material subject to this subchapter
shall comply with the applicable
placarding requirements of this subpart.
(b) This subpart does not apply to—
(1) Infectious substances;
(2) Hazardous materials classed as
ORM-D;
(3) Hazardous materials authorized
by this subchapter to be offered for
transportation as Limited Quantities
when identified as such on shipping papers
in accordance with § 172.203(b);
(4) Hazardous materials prepared in
accordance with § 173.13 of this subchapter;
(5) Hazardous materials which are
packaged as small quantities under the
provisions of § 173.4 of this subchapter; ...

Notice that this reg lists different kinds of HAZMAT, refer to them as HAZMAT, and state that some kinds of HAZMAT do not require vehicles carrying it to be placarded. Clearly there exist some kinds of HAZMAT that are indeed HAZMAT but do not require the vehicles that carry it to be placarded.

You state that weight doesn't turn something into HAZMAT. Yet in some cases that is precisely what occurs.

Actually, not. As shown above, the weight does not turn something into or define something as HAZMAT. The weight triggers the requirement to placard the truck.

The whole reason behind the HAZMAT regulations is to protect the public and the environment from unreasonable risk. There are many substances which do not pose an unreasonable risk to the public or the environment when shipped in certain quantities, but do, in fact, present such risks when shipped in larger quantities. Materials which do not present an unreasonable risk are not designated as Hazardous Materials, and those that do pose an unreasonable risk are designated as Hazardous Materials.

I'm sorry, once again, Turtle, but that is not correct. I grant that your argument can be logically made based on the definition of HAZMAT that you cited above, but, contrary to the claim you earlier made, the definition you cite is not the only definition of HAZMAT that can be found in the regs. I have found one other (and could find more, I believe, if I dug deeper).

We have dueling definitions. Neither one is wrong on its face. The question becomes, which one is the right one to use for the purpose of a truck driver who transports HAZMAT? I maintain that the definition I cited is the one to use because it's applicability focuses directly on what we truck drivers do.

The definition I cited points to the Table of Hazardous Materials. After I posted that definition, and asserted that if an item is listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials, it is HAZMAT, you and Cheri both argued that that is not so. Cheri said:

Phil: I'm not seeing where your point is supported by the snippet you quoted - it says "the term includes [ellipse] materials designated as hazmat" but it doesn't follow that every substance listed in the hazmat tables is hazmat in every instance.

You called it "assuming facts not in evidence."

In response, I promised to show in the regs that the regs themselves state that if a material or substance is named in Table of Hazardous Materials, it is in every instance, defined as HAZMAT. In other words, if it's in the table, it's HAZMAT.

Turtle, when I talked above about the "for the purpose of" language and applicability, you agreed:

I concur. Especially the applicability. That's the one thing that is critical to the understanding of the definitions and regulations with each section and subsection of the regs. If not understood in the proper applicability context, misunderstandings and misinterpretations can easily occur.

In that spirit, I offer the following:

The Table of Hazardous Materials is published in 49 CFR 172.101. Section 172.101 begins with this language:

§ 172.101 Purpose and use of hazardous
materials table.
(a) The Hazardous Materials Table
(Table) in this section designates the
materials listed therein as hazardous
materials for the purpose of transportation
of those materials. For each
listed material, the Table identifies the
hazard class or specifies that the material
is forbidden in transportation, and
gives the proper shipping name or directs
the user to the preferred proper
shipping name. In addition, the Table
specifies or references requirements in
this subchapter pertaining to labeling,
packaging, quantity limits aboard aircraft
and stowage of hazardous materials
aboard vessels.

Notice the words "The Hazardous Materials Table
(Table) in this section designates the
materials listed therein as hazardous
materials for the purpose of transportation
of those materials."

It does not say some of the materials. It does not say materials that exceed a certain weight. It does not say materials that require a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL to haul. It does not say It does not say materials that require the truck to be placarded.

It says "the materials listed therein."

I hate to do this because it is going to make me sound a lot like Bill Clinton when he said "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." But to make my point, I have to talk about the meaning of the word "the."

In this case, and in this context, "the materials listed therein" means all of the materials listed therein. If another meaning was intended, a word or phrase other than "the" would have been used.

It might have been more clear if the word "all" had been used instead of "the", but it remains the case that "the" means "all" in this section. There is no other language used in this section that would suggest otherwise. Any language found elsewhere in the regs that might suggest otherwise would be less persuasive because it is the language of the section itself that directly applies.

I could support this point more by deploying my attorney wife Diane to talk about the cannons of statutory construction and other such things, but I will spare readers and myself that ordeal.

I have presented my argument -- that if it's in the Table of Hazardous Materials, it is, for that reason alone, and for our purposes as truck drivers, defined as HAZMAT -- and I rest my case.

Thank you again, Turtle, and thanks to Cheri too for participating in a stimulating and fun debate.

 

[Ragman]

I have to admit, I am enjoying this thread.

2 highly respected members, debating an issue without resorting to name calling.

Thanks guys.

 

[Turtle]

Drive, haul, both euphemisms for "transport".

I never once stated that having a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement made whatever you are transporting magically become HAZMAT simply by virtue of the type of license you have.

As Cheri noted, the problem is largely that of terminology. The term HAZMAT has a very specific meaning to the Department of Transportation, namely that of regulating the transportation of hazardous materials in a manner to ensure the safety of the public and the environment. Substances which pose an unreasonably high risk to the public or the environment are designated as Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT). It is in that context in which the regulations, and the definitions, are written.

Yes, every item listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials is hazardous material, but in the context of transporting it where an unreasonable risk to the public and the environment exists, only those materials listed on the table which require placarding are designated by the Secretary of Transportation as Hazardous Materials and are regulated by the Department of Transportation.

The use of the term HAZMAT to refer to unregulated material is incorrect, because the term itself is a trigger for regulations.

In making you case, Phil, you continue to ignore the definition of Hazardous Material that I provided directly from the regulations, in preference of the one you provided, which is also directly from the regulations. But those two definitions are not mutually exclusive, and must be reconciled with each other. The only way they can be reconciled is within the context and precise language of the regulations themselves. Read the definition I provided very carefully, and see if you can reconcile it with the case you've made, and do so without introducing anything outside of the regulations, including assumptions and interpretations of what the DOT is saying. Yes, placarding triggers the endorsement, and that's because placarding triggers the HAZMAT designation, and the regulation of its transport.

 

[moose]

Why can't you leave the shipper with a load of Alcohol ?
all the alcohol we can buy in a store (or the stupid idea of selling it in a gas station) arrived there in a truck. over the years i delivered many loads of alcohol. none of which was placard .
it will not becomes a Hazmat until they drink it.

 

[ATeam]

Yes, every item listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials is hazardous material, ...

Thank you. That is one of the important points I was trying to make.

Regarding the definition you offered, I did not ignore it. I acknowledged it and agree that it comes from the regulations. But I rely on the definition I cited because I believe it is more applicable to truck drivers.

As for the rest, I think I have said just about everything I can say to make and defend my case. I am content at this point to move on to other topics and leave it to readers to consider our words and views.

 

[Turtle]

I must say that quoting a partial sentence out of context to make a point is very disappointing to see. I admit that when I typed that sentence I thought it might be done, but I really didn't think it would be done by you, so I left it alone and didn't reword it. Silly me.

 

[ATeam]

I must say that quoting a partial sentence out of context to make a point is very disappointing to see. I admit that when I typed that sentence I thought it might be done, but I really didn't think it would be done by you, so I left it alone and didn't reword it. Silly me.

Then clarify your meaning and I will acknowledge my error.

I will not however drop the assertion that if it is on the Hazardous Materials Table it is HAZMAT. Indeed, I will promote it as an established fact.

 

[Turtle]

My meaning was clarified in the rest of the sentence which you edited out. It was further clarified in the next paragraph. You cannot reconcile the definition I provided using HAZMAT in the terminology you are using it, because your preferred definition omits placards entirely as being important to what we do as truckers. It also ignores the entire reason for the regulations themselves, that of protecting the public and the environment from an unreasonable risk.

You make a fine case, a very common sense-centric case. But in making it you are putting the cart before the horse, reasoning out things by confusing cause and effect, the very triggers you are misunderstanding.

The case you are making requires a word change in the definition I provided. It's really that simple. If they one word, "and", is changed to "or" (requires placarding) then you are absolutely correct. But as long as that definition exists in the regs as worded, you cannot be correct in using the HAZMAT terminology in the way you do.

 

[ATeam]

A lot of digital ink has been spilled in the above debate over the definition of HAZMAT. It's funny, though, as a practical matter, neither definition needs to be known by a truck driver to properly perform his or her HAZMAT duties.

I'm going to give a hypothetical example to illustrate that point, and also to get back onto the ground regarding day-to-day HAZMAT transport. Diane and I do a fair amount of it and I want expediter wannabees who read this thread to have a more down-to-earth understanding of what a typical HAZMAT load involves.

HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE:

Diane and I are dispatched to pick up a load tomorrow morning, drive it straight through and deliver it the following morning. The dispatch notes say it is one piece, 1,200 lbs., HAZMAT, UN3066.

Notice that I know this is a HAZMAT load, not because of any definitions of HAZMAT that I have to think about or look up, but because the dispatch notes tell me it is a HAZMAT load. That is meaningful to me for two reasons. First, we get paid more to haul the stuff. Second, certain rules apply that I must follow.

Before we arrive at the shipper I will do some work. First, I pull out from the driver's door pouch our copy of the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook. Using the ID cross reference table therein, I see that UN3066 (UN number 3066) is paint.

I then turn to the Hazardous Materials Table in the pocketbook and find the entry for Paint. I see that the proper shipping name for UN3066 is "Paint or Paint related material." I know from my HAZMAT training that the "or" means either "Paint" or "Paint related material" is an acceptable proper shipping name.

The table provides more information but I don't worry about that now. It's not meaningful until I can put eyes on the freight and shipping papers. For now, I tab the page (mark it with a sticky thingy) in the pocketbook, and also tab page 153 in the Emergency Response Guidebook, which we also carry in the driver's door pouch.

I know to tab ERG page 153 because a column in the Hazardous Materials Table tells me that is the page for UN 3066, as do the front pages of the ERG where UN numbers can be looked up. While at page 153, I read what's there to remind myself what to do in the event of a spill, fire, etc.

The next morning, when Diane and I arrive at the dock, we see one skid waiting for us and the shipper nearby, ready to do the paperwork. I am usually the one on duty that time of day so I proceed as follows:

1. I greet the shipper and verify that the skid in view is the cargo we are there to pick up.

2. I inspect the skid, to make sure the pails of paint are securely stacked and secured to the skid (usually shrink wrap around the pails and the corners of the skid.) I look for cracks, leaks, loose covers, etc. Everything looks good.

3. I inspect the labels and markings on the containers. I find that they show the proper shipping name "Paint" and the UN number that: a) is the number the dispatch notes told me to expect, and b) matches the proper shipping name. I also note the directional arrows. Everything looks good.

4. I get the shipping papers from the shipper and check them against the freight and the Table of Hazardous Materials. There is only one item on the paperwork. The columns (quantity, HM, ID, description, etc.) are listed in the order the HAZMAT regs require (shown in the pocketbook), the proper shipping name matches the freight and the table, the shippers certification and signature are on the paperwork, as is the emergency response telephone number, etc. Everything looks good.

5. I use my pallet jack to load the truck and then secure the skid for transport. (We prohibit forklifts in our truck, they mess up the floor.)

6. I know from the Table of Hazardous Materials that the hazard class is 8. I know from the placard advisory column in the pocketbook that if the weight is over 1,001 lbs., which it is in this case, placards (Corrosive) are required.

7. Being the good shipper she is, she has Class 8 placards ready to give me (shipper furnishes placards) and I placard the truck. Before doing so, I check to make sure these are non-bulk placards since bulk quantity is not being shipped. Everything looks good.

8. The paperwork is signed by the shipper and me. I arrange the shipping papers so the HAZMAT info will be on top of the stack and place the shipping papers in the door pouch (or within reach of the driver with the seat belt on) as required by regulations.

9. With all regs complied with up to that point, I check to make sure Diane is still in the truck (important!) and drive away.

(This is Landstar, not FedEx Custom Critical. The HAZMAT training is more extensive. Contractors are required to know HAZMAT well enough to do it by themselves and do it right. No HAZMAT departure call to dispatch is required. You can call the HAZMAT department if you wish but it is not required.)

There are more HAZMAT duties to perform between the pick up and delivery but enough is written here to illustrate my point. The point is that you need not put a lot of thought into what the legal definition of HAZMAT is before doing a HAZMAT load.

At the practical level in this case, the dispatch notes told me this was a HAZMAT load and I began my HAZMAT work.

If for some reason, the HAZMAT info had been omitted from the dispatch notes, I would have figured out in any number of ways that it was a HAZMAT load. The shipper might tell me. I would notice the labels and markings. The UN number would tell me. The shipping papers would indicate this to be HAZMAT with an X in the HAZMAT (HM) column. At no time would I need to know the definition of HAZMAT offered earlier in this thread by Turtle or me. The fact that this is a HAZMAT load is communicated in several ways.

Notice too that the HAZMAT work I described in the example above, and the HAZMAT duties I am required to perform, would be exactly the same if the freight weighed less than 1,001 lbs. The one exception would be that placards are not required, so I would not placard the truck. Otherwise, all other HAZMAT duties remain (freight inspection, check proper shipping name, inspect shipping papers, tab the HAZMAT books, carry papers in the proper place, etc.)

Again, everything I would do with a shipment that requires the truck to be placarded, I also do with a shipment that does not require the truck to be placarded, except placard the truck.

Whether the truck is placarded or not, you are subject to all HAZMAT regulations when you transport HAZMAT. Exactly which definition of HAZMAT applies is subject to debate (see above!) but it does not matter on the ground.

Regardless of the definition you accept, you are going to end up using the same tables and following the same rules. If you fail to do so, you risk being cited for a violation by the DOT.

 

[ATeam]

My meaning was clarified in the rest of the sentence which you edited out.

I apologize, Turtle, for quoting you out of context. It was wrong for me to do so.

I continue to maintain that the case I make is correct and legally sound. My case is made, and as I said above, I am content to let readers do what they will with what I presented.

 

[Turtle]

Apology accepted.

I am curious as to why you think the definition which includes the placarding requirement is less important to what we do as truck drivers, though.

 

[ATeam]

Apology accepted.

I am curious as to why you think the definition which includes the placarding requirement is less important to what we do as truck drivers, though.

Already explained above. See comments about applicibility.

 

[Turtle]

OK. I read those. It's just that by using the terminology the way you are, it leaves the distinct impression that if you transport anything on the Table of Hazardous Materials, then it is HAZMAT for the purposes of having to have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement. That's the applicability of the regs with respect to the transportation of Hazardous Materials. When someone says something is HAZMAT, it means you need the endorsement to haul it. And that's simply not correct using your reasoning (that everything on the table, regardless of quantity, is HAZMAT).

It's no different than the differences in terminology of Commercial Vehicle and that of Commercial Motor Vehicle. The two terms are often incorrectly used, which causes great confusion. Both terms have specific, distinctly different meanings.

There was an instance I know of where a single Group 31 truck battery was shipped expedited. The experts at the shipper and the experts in Safety at the carrier both agreed that the shipment was HAZMAT since it is listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials. And because it was HAZMAT, they both concluded, using precisely the argument made by you, that an endorsement was required. They were both wrong. That's just one case of using the wrong terminology can cause undue confusion.

 

[Moot]

I got a bloody ear debating the definition of hazardous material with Turtle on the phone some time ago. I enjoyed sitting back and reading this debate between ATeam and Turtle. I have a question for both of them; I am a shipper, shipping one 450# drum of flammable paint, what is the minimum information required on the B.O.L.?

 

[billg27]

Another question about hazmat freight. Just a straight simple answer, I don't have the IQ that some of you do. Let's say I get to the the shipper and he has about 815# of paint. The paperwork would show a UN1263 for this commodity. I know it doesn't need placards because it's under the 1,000# limit. But could I legally haul this freight without my hazmat endorsement?

 

[ATeam]

I got a bloody ear debating the definition of hazardous material with Turtle on the phone some time ago. I enjoyed sitting back and reading this debate between ATeam and Turtle. I have a question for both of them; I am a shipper, shipping one 450# drum of flammable paint, what is the minimum information required on the B.O.L.?

I do not know since I have never prepared shipping papers in my life and have had no training on how to do it.

 

[Moot]

I do not know since I have never prepared shipping papers in my life and have had no training on how to do it.

Then how can you sign for and accept any shipment, hazmat or not?

 

[ATeam]

Another question about hazmat freight. Just a straight simple answer, I don't have the IQ that some of you do. Let's say I get to the the shipper and he has about 815# of paint. The paperwork would show a UN1263 for this commodity. I know it doesn't need placards because it's under the 1,000# limit. But could I legally haul this freight without my hazmat endorsement?

Yes. If the vehicle does not require placards, a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL is not required to drive it.

 

[ATeam]

Then how can you sign for and accept any shipment, hazmat or not?

I was not trying to be a smart ***. I answered the question you asked. You asked, what is the minimum information required on the B.O.L.? Shippers have rules to follow in preparing shipping papers and I do not know what they are. I only know what the driver is responsible to check before the shipping papers are accepted by the driver.

That gets more complicated than I care to go into here and it varies by the item(s) being shipped. In all cases, I use the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook to guide me through.

The "General Requirements" section of that book includes several paragraphs, examples and illustrations that help me understand what I need to know about the shipping papers for a particular shipment.

 

[cheri1122]

I have to admit, I am enjoying this thread.

2 highly respected members, debating an issue without resorting to name calling.

Thanks guys.

And I'm chopped liver?
At least the "2 highly respected members" acknowledged me - and neither sent me to fetch a beer, so that's progress, eh?
Thanks, guys.