Vegas shooting, concert this morning

Turtle

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Staff member
Retired Expediter
Sorry man, we're never going to be able to establish a set of standards of who is responsible enough to carry firearms & who is not. So they should all be banned! They have no place in modern society.
Same thing can be said of cocaine, heroin, tobacco and religion.

I wouldn't have a problem banning all guns from society, as long as it's everybody everybody. But, whatever weapons the government has at its disposal to use on the citizenry, the citizens should have the same exact weapons to use for their defense. No exceptions.
 
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Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
They have no need for vehicles with more than 4 cylinders and 40 horsepower. They have no need for smart phones.
World of differences and you know it.

No, no difference at all. All are objects. All are legal to own. Granted, there is the difference that only one is guaranteed to us by the Constitution and the others are not. But otherwise no difference.
The Constitution doesn't not guarantee automatic weapons.

Let's compare shall we..... vehicles = transportation people and goods..... smart phone = communication..... automatic weapons = mass killing of human beings...

Big difference!

I have no problem with rifles, shot guns, etc.... my issue is with automatic.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The Constitution absolutely does guarantee automatic weapons as they are a part of arms. The intent is for the citizen to have the same arms as the government to offset the inevitable goal of the left to dominate and rule over society, whether then or now or in the future.

As to your comparison, vehicles, a privilege not Constitutionally protected, smartphones, a privilege not Constitutionally protected, arms, a right Constitutionally protected.

Those of you demanding the elimination of the rights of scores of millions of honest, law-abiding citizens due to the actions of scores of law breaking individuals in the name of saving lives and protecting the population must also demand the absolute ban of all automobiles from the public to save the lives of the scores of thousands killed annually by them. You must. You must demand every swimming pool be filled in. Every one. Finally you must demand the complete ban on abortion. After all, you want to save innocent lives.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Finally you must demand the complete ban on abortion. After all, you want to save innocent lives.
How did I know the debate over this issue would end up going there?

Amazing, just amazing!
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Oh, and don't forget an absolute and total ban on all tobacco and alcohol products as well as they each kill exponentially more people than firearms.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
Finally you must demand the complete ban on abortion. After all, you want to save innocent lives.
How did I know the debate over this issue would end up going there?

Amazing, just amazing!
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This is the forum with no topic! Want to just chit-chat? Talk about anything and everything? Shout out to someone? This is it! Nothing is off topic!
 
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Grizzly

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Finally you must demand the complete ban on abortion. After all, you want to save innocent lives.
How did I know the debate over this issue would end up going there?

Amazing, just amazing!

Agreed on abortion. It kills lives every single day. But one does not need to unilaterally agree on all those positions in order to value human life.

I'm not sure what I need to understand about purchasing a gun or The Constitution to understand that firearms are NO LONGER SAFE to the public at large. Set up a buy back period .... big penalties after & move on ...
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Guns are inanimate objects, no different than forks, toasters, televisions and dental floss. They are no danger to anyone until misused. You can't fix the problem by legislating against inanimate objects. The problem is society, not guns.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The Constitution doesn't not guarantee automatic weapons.
As Leo noted, yeah, it kinda does. It guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. Arms is defined very broadly as anything used in defense or offense. More specifically, it is defined as anything that a man wears or takes in his hands for his defense, or uses in his anger, to cast at or strike at another. But that covers a lot, and the Constitution doesn't cover such a broad guarantee.

Every Founding Father conversation prior to and during the ratification of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms was in the context of a militia. The Founding Fathers didn't provide for a standing army. They provided for a permanent navy, but not an army. Why? They feared the inevitable military coup. But they also knew that without a standing army, the only protection the people and the government had were militias.

The Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, explicitly states what militias do: they make sure the laws are followed, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions (lessons learned after Shays Rebellion of 1786-1787 and The Whiskey Rebellion 1791-1794). The Militia Act of 1792 detailed how the President can use militias. The same Militia Act of 1792 also made arms ownership and militia membership a requirement, and described in detail the arms of the infantry soldier, the cavalry and the artillery soldier. The word "arms" was always used in a military sense, which is why the Constitution doesn't prohibit laws restricting non-military weapons such as daggers, sling-shots, sword- canes, brass knuckles, etc.

But the Constitution absolutely protects the right of the People to keep and bear arms, in a military sense, meaning military arms. The same arms used by the soldier are the arms protected by the constitution for the People to keep and bear. So technically, the Constitution protects the right to keep and bear automatic weapons, since automatic weapons are the weapons of the infantry soldier.

But automatic weapons were severely restricted back in the 1920s (in a law that I don't particularly agree with, since what's good for the soldier should be good the the citizenry, but alas the citizenry proved not to be able to bear automatic weapons with responsibility), and were even more restricted in the 1980s. So with very few exceptions, the citizenry at large cannot own automatic weapons. The current cry du jour is to ban assault-looking weapons, because those are military weapons. But the emphasis should be on banning non-military weapons, weapons that cannot be used in a military conflict because they are useless in such a context, as per the Constitution itself.

Let's compare shall we..... vehicles = transportation people and goods..... smart phone = communication..... automatic weapons = mass killing of human beings...

Big difference!
Well, let's not get too carried away. The primary purpose of motor vehicles is the transportation of people and goods, but in the context of the earlier statement, they need not be more than 4 cylinders and 40 horsepower to accomplish that. More powerful vehicles can certainly be used to mow down people in a crowd. Smartphones are hand-held computing devices that can also use various apps for the purpose of communications. They can also be used as a cyber weapon, and you can even put someone's eye out with that thing. Automatic weapons simply fire many rounds of ammunition in a short period of time. They can certainly be used to kill massive numbers of people, but only if you point them at people while firing. They can also be used as a defensive deterrent and in actual defense of life and property.

I have no problem with rifles, shot guns, etc.... my issue is with automatic.
I'm grudgingly OK with the banning of automatic weapons in society. But only if the government (mainly the police) are also banned from using them on citizens.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm grudgingly OK with the banning of automatic weapons in society. But only if the government (mainly the police) are also banned from using them on citizens.
Perhaps I need to pay more attention to the nightly news, but I can't remember a story of a police department using automatic weapons on citizens.

Please enlighten me to when this happened.
 
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Grizzly

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Guns are inanimate objects, no different than forks, toasters, televisions and dental floss. They are no danger to anyone until misused. You can't fix the problem by legislating against inanimate objects. The problem is society, not guns.

Over 10,000 citizens are being killed by gun violence annually ....
Please tell me .. how many by toasters? How many homicides annually by dental floss?
These arguments are obtuse.
 
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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Don't like those? Fine. Then how about tobacco, alcohol, automobiles, all three responsible for more deaths by far. That doesn't alter the fact that you can't legislate against inanimate objects and bring about societal change. They are inanimate for cripes sake.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I'm grudgingly OK with the banning of automatic weapons in society. But only if the government (mainly the police) are also banned from using them on citizens.
Perhaps I need to pay more attention to the nightly news, but I can't remember a story of a police department using automatic weapons on citizens.

Please enlighten me to when this happened.
Well, my point isn't whether or not automatic weapons have been used on citizens by law enforcement, it's a question of whether they are available and able to be used on citizens. Any weapon the State can use on its citizens, the citizens should have the same right to those weapons. Otherwise we're getting into selective rights territory. Any weapon banned for civilian use should also be banned for government use against citizens.

In any case, Ruby Ridge in Idaho, and the Branch Davidians in Waco immediately come to mind where automatic weapons were used on civilians by law enforcement. Automatic weapons were also used by police in the Pulse nightclub shooting, as well as the North Hollywood shooting. When police use fully automatic weapons on citizens it's kind of a PR (and litigation) nightmare, and it's why rubber bullets are usually fired at rioters and the like, and the authorization to go fully auto in American streets is rare. And while it may not be the case in larger city police departments, most regular police officers and their police vehicles do not normally carry selective fire weapons (flip a switch and a semi automatic goes to full automatic and/or burst mode). However, fully automatic M16s, M4 and AR15 are standard issue for SWAT teams for nearly all departments. The DEA has standard issue machine pistols, as well. In many (if not most, I don't know) states you will find a selective fire weapon in the trunk of State Police vehicles. After Katrina, Department of Homeland Security and it's contracted Blackwater officers famously patrolled the streets of New Orleans with automatic weapons. The same happened in Houston after Harvey and in South Florida after Irma.
 

Grizzly

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Don't like those? Fine. Then how about tobacco, alcohol, automobiles, all three responsible for more deaths by far. That doesn't alter the fact that you can't legislate against inanimate objects and bring about societal change. They are inanimate for cripes sake.

How do you characterize Australia's recent gun legislation?
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm not Australian. I don't follow them or consider them. Legislating inanimate objects rather than humans and society is never going to work. Substitute guns for alcohol and look at how well Prohibition worked. It will be the same with guns. It is a fool's errand to enact more gun laws on top of the over 20,000 gun laws already in place. They don't work because guns are unable to read, comprehend and obey laws.
 

Grizzly

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I'm not Australian. I don't follow them or consider them. Legislating inanimate objects rather than humans and society is never going to work. Substitute guns for alcohol and look at how well Prohibition worked. It will be the same with guns. It is a fool's errand to enact more gun laws on top of the over 20,000 gun laws already in place. They don't work because guns are unable to read, comprehend and obey laws.

If we can't analytically look at how other citizens of the world govern themselves & possibly learn from it .... then we are ...


bird sand.jpg
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Oh yes, just one more gun control law and all will be well. That will fix things. We'll be saved and safe. pie in the sky.jpg
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
I'm introducing a ban on cars just in case , along with stepladders.



Ladders
In the study, Socias and colleagues analyzed U.S. national data for 2011. They found that work-related ladder falls caused 113 deaths, almost 15,500 nonfatal injuries that resulted in at least one day away from work, and about 34,000 nonfatal injuries that were treated in hospital emergency departments. Not many killed, but a lot of injuries.................

Cars, will at least 30k deaths a year.

What causes tree stand falls? For you deer hunters,,, structural failure

Various factors lead to tree stand injuries. These include structural failure, hunter entering or exiting the stand, alcohol, hunter falling asleep, and rifle recoil.



Another study reported mechanical failure of the stand as a frequent cause leading to falls, accounting for 32% of injuries, whereas hunter falling asleep accounted for 5% and intoxication for 4%. Interestingly, alcohol has been reported to be involved in cases anywhere from fewer than 2% to more than 20% of the time.
 
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