U.N. court rules U.S. execution violated treaty

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Does anyone really give a dam what the UN court has to say?
We need to throw the whole group out of the building WE BUILT and GAVE THEM and just tell them to kiss off!

At least when this all went down, Texas had enough and told the FED and the UN to "stuff" it and killed the pos..........



U.N. court rules U.S. execution violated treaty - CNN.com

U.N. court rules U.S. execution violated treaty


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A United Nations court has found that the United States violated an international treaty and the court's own order when a Mexican national was executed last year in a Texas prison.


Jose Ernesto Medellin was executed by lethal injection for raping and murdering two girls aged 14 and 16.

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued a ruling Monday in an unusual case that pitted President Bush against his home state in a dispute over federal authority, local sovereignty and foreign treaties. Mexico had filed a formal complaint against U.S. state and federal officials

"The United States of America has breached the obligation incumbent upon it" to stop the execution, the ICJ announced in a unanimous opinion.

Jose Ernesto Medellin's death by lethal injection in August followed a 15-year legal dispute after his conviction for two brutal slayings.

At issue was whether Texas and other states had to give in to a demand by the president that the prisoner be allowed new hearings and re-sentencing. Bush made that request reluctantly after the international court in 2004 concluded that Medellin and about 50 other Mexicans on various states' death rows were improperly denied access to their consulate upon arrest, a violation of a treaty signed by the United States decades ago.

Their home countries could have provided legal and other assistance to the men had they been notified, the court said.

In a separate judgment, the ICJ declined Mexico's demand that the United States provide guarantees against executing other foreign inmates in the future.

The U.S. Supreme Court last March ruled for Texas, allowing the Medellin execution to proceed.

Efforts stalled in Congress last summer over legislation that would have given foreign death row inmates like Medellin a new hearing before any punishment could be carried out.

State Department officials have said the international ruling will not help other foreign inmates in U.S. prisons, because federal officials cannot force states to comply. Administration officials also said that the president did all he could to force state compliance and that Congress now needs to intervene with specific legislation.

Medellin was 18 when he participated in the June 1993 gang rape and murder of two Harris County girls: Jennifer Ertman, 14, and Elizabeth Pena, 16. He was convicted of the crimes and sentenced to death.

The prisoner's lawyers argued that Mexican consular officials were never able to meet with the man until after his conviction.

Only Oklahoma has commuted a capital inmate's sentence to life in prison in response to the international judgment. Days after Medellin died by lethal injection, Texas executed Honduran native Heliberto Chi Acheituno, who also said his treaty rights were violated.

The ICJ in 2004 ordered the United States to provide "review and reconsideration" of the sentences and convictions of the Mexican prisoners. That world court again in July mandated that the United States do everything within its federal authority to stop Medellin's execution until his case could be further reviewed by American courts.

Based in The Hague, Netherlands, the ICJ resolves disputes between nations over treaty obligations. The 15-judge panel is the principal judicial organization of the United Nations, laying out rights of people detained in other nations.

The Supreme Court appeal turned on what role each branch of government plays to give force to international treaty obligations. After the ICJ ruling, the United States pulled out of that international court's jurisdiction in matters arising from the Vienna Convention.

In allowing the Medellin execution to proceed, the Supreme Court majority noted congressional "inaction" on the issue, efforts that had "not progressed beyond the bare introduction of a bill in the four years since the ICJ ruling."
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Get Out! Us from the organization and them from our nation. We fund it and keep it afloat and get the most grief from members who are worthless wastes or oxygen. Personally, I'd have liked to see a hijacker mistakenly have hit that building instead of one of the WTC buildings. Put that money toward paying deficit, minus the cost of a big stick.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Does anyone really give a dam what the UN court has to say?

Yeah, in this case, you should. Or at least to not so quickly and easily dismiss it merely for being connected with the UN and the ICJ. The ruling has many implications that could come back to bite the US in the butt. These are complicated cases, involving many issues, but the basic treaty underlying most of them is one the US heavily promoted under Customary International Law (aspect of international law that are derived from custom) and from the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, and, primarily, the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

The Vienna Convention of the Law of Treaties stem from those earlier conventions, and is what it at issue here. The US has since pulled out of the VCLT, by mere fact that the US governement can live it to it's part of the agreement only just so far, as in it cannot force individual states within the US to conform to international treaty between countries. The US can only live up to its end of the bargain with respect to what the US itself does (FBI, Homeland Security, etc), but not to what an individual state may do (State's Rights).

The federal government didn't arrest, charge, convict nor execute Medellin, the State of Texas did. But the UN Court (correctly) interprets the VCLT to mean that the US federal government has final say in such matters, even over Texas. That's why the US pulled out of the VCLT, because it cannot be reconciled with the US Constitution. We have too few State's Right left as it is, and if the US had forced Texas to comply, that would have been the end of all State's Rights as wel know it.

So Bush played at trying to get Texas to cave, and Congress himmed and hawed and let the Bill die (they knew it wouldn't pass a Supreme Court test), which left the Supreme Court no choice but to rule as they did, for Texas.

At issue is the timing of a request from Medellin to consult with the Mexican consulate. He argued that he wasn't informed of his rights to contact his consulate, but he failed to file the habeas petition prior to the State's time limitations. The Supreme Court affirmed dismissal of the habeas petition, holding that neither an International Court of Justice case, nor a memo issued by the President of the United States, constitutes directly enforceable federal law that preempts state limitations on the filing of successive habeas petitions. Done.

I think the Supreme Court was right, and that Texas had every right to follow through with the execution. But I also think that Texas should have let Medellin contact the Mexican consulate as soon as he was arrested, instead of waiting until after he had been convicted.

Basically, it says that if you are arrested in a foreign country, you have the right to demand to see your country's consulate for legal advice and representation. The US is all behind that one, let me tell ya. They demand it from other countries. And other countries demand it of the US. But they cannot demand it of an individual state here in the US. The ICJ wants to blur the lines between the US and the states, and make it so that it doesn't natter if you are arrested by the FBI or Sherrif Joe, the international treaty still applies.

It's not a matter of thumbing your nose at the UN and the ICJ, especially since they are wrong on this issue (as they are using it to try to impose power and judgment over the US, in my humble onion, of course), but the ruling itself can, and will, have implications for US citizens abroad. The precedent has been set.


But as so many people say, get the US out of the UN, it sounds good, but whether we are in it or out of it, the decisions of the UN has direct and indirect implications for us here at home and on the world stage. If we got out of the UN, tore the building down and kicked every one of them out of the country, it wouldn't change a thing. The decisions made by he UN would still impact us here, either directly, or because of us having to respond to one of their decisions.

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer
, is a saying that directly applies to US involvement in the United Nations. If you think about that for a minute or two, you'll see why US withdrawal from the UN wouldn't be in our best interests.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
lol, nope, kill the scum bag, and tell the UN and yhe World court to .... well you know what i would tell them.

And as i said, toss the UN out of the country and do not ever send a dipolmat there again. It is that simple.....:D
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yeah, it's that simple. But there are consequences to such an action, and instead of talkin' tuff and beatin' yer chest, you have to logically and intelligently consider the ramifications. Do you really want the US to not have a seat on the UN Security Council? To let Russia, China, France, and now Mexico (a current member of the UN Council) have their way with us? That's what you're advocating.

One of the functions of the Security Council is to establish international sanctions, international meaning that all countries are supposed to follow them, and they usually do. What if we did as you'd like, then suddenly find that no one will import any of our goods, as a sanction for whatever they feel like? That's a very real possibility.

We can't be a world leader and be issolationists at the same time, much less be a world leader and the World Bully at the same time. We're supposed to be setting the example. While we can't have other countries messin' with Texas and other internal affairs of our country, if we want to be able to continue to mess with the internal affairs of others, then we at least have to play the part of being a part of the UN.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Id send the 1st donation to remove the UN building from the ground in NYC. Yes we should get out and not look back. We also need to carry a bigger stick and not beat our chest, but go to war whenever and whereever we feel the need to.

I have never worked buy "popular opinion" and what is PC. You do what you feel you have to do and either reap the benefits or suffer the consquences. And yes I personally have done both in more the a few situation...

So yes dump the seat at the UN and bulldoze OUR building....what are they going to do , "sancsion" us with their Security Council Committee ? Screw em

see i have been a "hip shooter" from the time i was making decision. Some good some bad, but i am still around to deal with those decisions. And I'll continue to do the same, and our government would be better served with a bit more "hip shooting" and taking action instead of looking for the "popular opinion"....
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Let's not get drastic. We should be able to sell the building or put it on a 40 yr lease and generate some revenue from it one way or the other.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I say try to lease it out, it we can't it would make a GREAT target, but leave the so called "Diplomats" in it. HEY, Diplomat and Dip-Sh*t both start with "DIP" Now it all makes sense. Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
You 3 couldn't see the bottom of the pool if it were empty....

Turtle you are correct....

Wonder how these three amogos will feel when U.S citizens are executed in the same matter, maybe even a televised public stoning to death because one had a beer in public in some eastern country....no legal representations no access to the Embassy....just public hanging of another American...

If the U.S can't honour its treaties why would you expect others to honour ours?

as far as the UN.....ditch the bums....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yep, OVM, I do understand, having lived overseas for 6 1/2 years it was always in the back of your mind. Of course, few countries follow that stuff. Americans are locked up all the time, often on bogus charges, not allowed access to thier Embasy etc. Not to mention how some of Obama's terrorist friends, you know, the ones who cry about the Geneva Convention? They take out American prisinors, drag them around in the streets, burn them alive, be-head them and then the world whines over Gitmo. Those guys just eat well and other than the odd hurricane live better than some of us do. Hey, they made thier bed. Maybe we should repay in kind? Or just shoot 'em as per the convention? Not to worry, Obama will just let 'em go to kill some more and most likely pay them for thier time there.
Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I understand all that.....but the U.S has a reputation....as selfish, self-centered, over bearing, and intrusive around the world.....This just shows that the U.S tries to make judgements in other countries but doesn't abide by the same standards at home....

BTW...I am glad Texas did what it did though..:D..maybe foreign nationals will think twice about commiting crimes over here.....;)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yea, we are selfish and self-centered. That is why we provide more charity money world wide than any other country. I say, we stop 100% of all money going out for a few years. No help for anyone or anything. Use the money to put our house in order. Since we suck so bad, the heck with them. The world is over-populated anyway. Layoutshooter
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Ovm wrote:

Wonder how these three amogos will feel when U.S citizens are executed in the same matter, maybe even a televised public stoning to death because one had a beer in public in some eastern country....no legal representations no access to the Embassy....just public hanging of another American...

You mean the way David Pearl the AMERICAN Journalist was killed, with his head cut off, or how the military contractors were hung headless in the town square and then the bodies drug thru town behind a truck? Is that the kind f justice for americans that you are talking abour? huh!?!? What did the UN do then? Maybe issue a Strongly worded statement to condem those type of actions?

Throw'em out!
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That is why we have bombers. Of course, out new kinder president won't do anything at all. OH, Expect find out what bad things the U.S. did to MAKE them kill our people. There is no way those people are at fault. Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Ovm wrote:



You mean the way David Pearl the AMERICAN Journalist was killed, with his head cut off, or how the military contractors were hung headless in the town square and then the bodies drug thru town behind a truck? Is that the kind f justice for americans that you are talking abour? huh!?!? What did the UN do then? Maybe issue a Strongly worded statement to condem those type of actions?

Throw'em out!

Those are bad examples Chef....those were rebels and terrorists....your conflicting things by tossing that in...we are speaking of civilized countries and people who disobey the llaw of that land....those examples are of just brutal animalistic murderous behavior....aimed at the media and the public to make a statement of how much a bad azz they are...or should I say were....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Civilized like Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria? All members of the U.N. All guilty of un-speakable cirmes on humanity. Never heard the U.N. Court tell them to stop. All we did was fry a worthless piece of scum. Sounds about right to me. Layoutshooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Civilized like Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria? All members of the U.N. All guilty of un-speakable cirmes on humanity. Never heard the U.N. Court tell them to stop. All we did was fry a worthless piece of scum. Sounds about right to me. Layoutshooter

Thats why the UN is a piece if shizt....
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The UN ain't right in the head...but it does employ 1,000's of Americans....and spin off jobs to maintain it....
 
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