The Other Side Of The Coin

MrGautama

Not a Member
The sole fact that I haven't been banned from the forum attests to the openness of this platform, a plus for the powers in charge. I did read all of the replies on the other posts to my comments and have to say they were for the most part insightful and honest, including some long and well thought views in the context of the conservative discourse. Specially interesting was Greg's story about his grandfather during the depression that sparked images in my mind of the period and its problems.
Unfortunately our points of view are irreconcilable at this point and I think it's unlikely that will change in the near future. For me I can say that not only love my country but my countrymen as well, and that I believe that weakness is much a human trait as is compassion. I believe that every individual has travel as far as they can given their particular circumstances, in other words every individual has become what it is to the best of his abilities. I am not Bill Gates not because I didn't work as hard as he did but because I don't have his capacity to create and his cunning business vision. But in all I am one of the lucky ones, my abilities and my circumstances have kept me safe from poverty, ignorance, hunger, crime, etc. and have provided me with the resources to live a happy and relaxed life; now, what happens to the people who's abilities and realities didn't stretch as far as mine?, right now for the most part they are discarded and fall through the wayside. Is that the correct and moral way to treat the weak in our society; our own countrymen?. The truth is that no one is poor, an addict or a victim because that's what they wanted in life, their lack of ability and their circumstances brought them there and I think is our moral obligation to stretch a net to catch their fall and help them to their feet again; and not because I fear some welfare lady will drive a better car than me we should do away with a comprehensive social network to assist the ones in need; of course abuse happens everywhere but is not a reason not to make ourselves a nation that prides itself in taking care of its own.
Compassion is probably the only uniquely human trait, besides our intellect, that separate us from the animals, and it can be found in almost all of us, people will do incredible things for compassion, from pulling someone from a burning vehicle to saving a dog from the thin ice on a frozen lake; even at the risk of their own lives. I think that we should incorporate compassion to the vision for our country and don't depend on charity to manage the problems of the most vulnerable amongst us, but a combined effort to solve the problem to the best of our collective abilities.
The obstacle to achieving a prosperous society for all is, in my view, the irrational greed that is left on us from our ancestral origin and by bringing it to the light and exposing it for what it is would help us, collectively, to keep it in check. Simply said, I just can't agree to bend the laws (or create them with the least needy minority in mind) and rules to allow someone to get another Ferrari at the cost of 100 kids going without health care or 50 homeless families having nowhere to turn to, I just can't morally justify it. This greed and hysterical pursuit of riches and power beyond the reasonable needed is driving our kids insane, violent, and miserable. And is making some of the adults take a position against the progress of our society so not to ruin it for themselves when they get to be rich, which by all accounts is very unlikely. Sure I would like to have a bit more of money, but if it implies leaving some corpses by the side of the road; I think I'll pass.

As I said before our points of view are antagonistic at this point in time but I think it's valid to show the other side of the coin; I have been called naive and a dreamer by some simple minds before so if there is any here please don't bother.
I would like as well to apologize for yanking chains around here, it was pretty insensible considering the effort you put in your replies. All of you are my colleagues and have my admiration and respect for being one of the highlights of the transportation industry.

Good luck to all.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Somewhere out there in space, along with the many paragraph returns that are missing, we'll likely find whatever sensibility suggests a society that ignores responsibility and rewards those who don't take care of themselves. Not everyone is going to be Bill Gates but it is naive and dreaming to suggest those who succeed should support multi-generational welfare dependence.

The liberal left has failed dismally in everything other than multiplying the number of domestic leaches draining our limited resources while importing millions of additional criminal alien welfare drains for the votes that buys them. If the liberal agenda worked the last half century would see positive results and improvements. Instead we are FAR worse than we were before the New Deal and the Great Society et al.

Limited assistance for those in need? Certainly. Lifetime assistance for multiple generations? Absolutely not. More money for each new baby made? No. Random drug testing for those on assistance? Yes. Repayment required through monetary or public service means? Yes. There are numerous reasons for far tougher and more sensible programs and requirements. Those who think with their heart and not their mind can only see the ridiculous measures our embarrassment in chief et al are foisting on those who are capable of thinking with their brains but sadly outnumbered by the fluff brigade.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Compassion in and of itself is a noble thing. But it can also be misplaced. To use compassion to save a dog from thin ice is noble indeed, but if you and the dog die while carrying out such a noble deed, then the compassion is misplaced. The same holds true for society at large. Just as you would not use your own personal compassion to force someone else to go out on the thin ice to save the dog, you can't use your own personal compassion to tell others how to be compassionate. You do what you want to with your money, and leave mine alone.

Incidentally, Bill Gates and Paul Allen stole Altair BASIC and rewrote it, keeping it for themselves while at the same time licensing the improved version back to Altair, as well as licensing it to Atari and Commodore. Gates then bought the exclusive use rights to QDOS (and SC-DOS), which was a stolen clone of Digital Research's 86-CP/M, for $25,000. He then sold a version of DOS bundled with BASIC to IBM, but kept the more open version of it for himself. Then after Steve Jobs stole the WIMP interface from Xerox, Gates stole that from Apple. Microsoft was founded and built on stolen ideas. Bill Gates succeeded by cheating, never having an original idea of his own.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
Incidentally, Bill Gates and Paul Allen stole Altair BASIC and rewrote it, keeping it for themselves while at the same time licensing the improved version back to Altair, as well as licensing it to Atari and Commodore. Gates then bought the exclusive use rights to QDOS (and SC-DOS), which was a stolen clone of Digital Research's 86-CP/M, for $25,000. He then sold a version of DOS bundled with BASIC to IBM, but kept the more open version of it for himself. Then after Steve Jobs stole the WIMP interface from Xerox, Gates stole that from Apple. Microsoft was founded and built on stolen ideas. Bill Gates succeeded by cheating, never having an original idea of his own.

All true, almost. I wouldn't say Bill Gates never had an original idea. We don't truly know what might have become of BASIC had Mr. Gates not gotten involved. When you move a grain of sand, you change the face of the Earth..
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
BASIC had been around since the mid 60's when it was written by a couple of professors at Dartmouth so that non-scientist students wouldn't have to learn how to write custom software for the computer in order to use it. It was used on almost all computers built after that, especially the microcomputers as they came about in the mid to late 70's. Several variations of BASIC were written to take advantage of new commands and ideas, but they were all basically the same. BASIC was a de facto part of all computers before Gates got involved. Gates merely rewrote it again and added commands for QDOS, which would have happened regardless (it had already happened with C/PM in the meantime, which is where he got that idea, too).

I'm not trying to take anything away from Gates, other than the notion that he and/or Micro-Soft came up with anything new or unique. What Gates did was recognize was that computers were just pieces of sculpture without the software, and he steered hardware makers towards concentrating on the hardware instead of also having to worry about operating systems or programming languages. He bundled BASIC and DOS together to make it easy for them. His vision was a computer on every desktop, and who made the hardware didn't matter, so long as they were all running his software. He managed to convice hardware makers that the hardware was the most important thing, but that they needed to bundle his software with the hardware in order to sell computers to those who might not otherwise buy one (because they weren't programmers). And he managed to get them to agree to it in writing, locking in licensing agreements with IBM that had them paying Gates a small fee for every computer they sold, even the ones that didn't come with Microsoft software. Brilliant.
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
Not everyone is going to be Bill Gates but it is naive and dreaming to suggest those who succeed should support multi-generational welfare dependence.


Why see it that way?, who is talking about "multi generational welfare dependence"?. No one is advocating to have people in permanent paid vacation at the expense of the tax payers. Also why is paying a fare share to the society that enable business to make the fortunes they do in the first place a bad idea?, there would be no money to be made without the security that our "socialized" police provides, the transportation that our mostly "socialized" road systems allows, etc.

By the way LBD, there is no such thing as "liberal left" in our county; at this moment the "right" is in power and the "extreme right" is in the opposition. If you think Obama is a liberal I know you haven't seen a real one; his election can pave the way for a better tomorrow for us but is not the solution in itself. The only difference between the democrats (the right) and the republicans (the extreme right) is that the former leave a bit more on the plate for the bottom dwellers.

I'm sure that during the robber barons times I would not only have been called a dreamer but maybe just killed right away if I had talked about 8 hr workdays and 5 day workweeks, abolition of child labor and a reasonable minimum wage. But it was because of people that dared to dream a better future that you and I have many of the rights we take for granted.
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
You do what you want to with your money, and leave mine alone.


In other words, let them fall trough the cracks?, why don't we stop reserving handicapped parking spots and building wheelchair ramps now that we are at it?, I imagine that if you can't climb the stairs you don't belong in any public building in the first place.

As I mentioned before, this society gives you the tools to live in a civilized manner and they are financed by the taxes you pay. You want to have good roads, the protection of the police, national security, etc., but you don't want to pay for them?.

When taxes are spent for the country and not diverted to fake wars, reconstruction firms and crazy subsidies to the already rich we may start to get the bang for our tax buck; but to see that we need a government of the people, by the people, for the people; and the removal of the extreme right from power is a first step.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Common sense is only "right wing" if you are too far to the left. I guess by your definition I possess "extreme" common sense.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The only one's that can "fall through the cracks" are the ones that are just plain too stupid to put thier arms out to stop from falling. You have to want to make it. You have to want to work. You have to want to succeed on your own. It is all up to the individual. Anyone can do it, but it takes EFFORT!!! Layoutshooter
 

Steady Eddie

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Why see it that way?, who is talking about "multi generational welfare dependence"?. No one is advocating to have people in permanent paid vacation at the expense of the tax payers. Also why is paying a fare share to the society that enable business to make the fortunes they do in the first place a bad idea?, there would be no money to be made without the security that our "socialized" police provides, the transportation that our mostly "socialized" road systems allows, etc.

By the way LBD, there is no such thing as "liberal left" in our county; at this moment the "right" is in power and the "extreme right" is in the opposition. If you think Obama is a liberal I know you haven't seen a real one; his election can pave the way for a better tomorrow for us but is not the solution in itself. The only difference between the democrats (the right) and the republicans (the extreme right) is that the former leave a bit more on the plate for the bottom dwellers.

I'm sure that during the robber barons times I would not only have been called a dreamer but maybe just killed right away if I had talked about 8 hr workdays and 5 day workweeks, abolition of child labor and a reasonable minimum wage. But it was because of people that dared to dream a better future that you and I have many of the rights we take for granted.

No such thing as a "liberal left"? Obama Washed are you? I know who you are now, you are an employee of Acorn....do you ever "express" your views on Expediting? Company you drive for? Or did you just come on here a month ago to see how p'ed off you can make folks on here?
 
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MrGautama

Not a Member
No such thing as a "liberal left"? Obama Washed are you? I know who you are now, you are an employee of Acorn....do you ever "express" your views on Expediting? Company you drive for? Or did you just come on here a month ago to see how p'ed off you can make folks on here?

I already apologized for yanking chains around here Eddie and I'm not about to start with you.
About expressing my political views to the company I drive for, why the question?; should I be dismissed?, reported to the FBI?, shot dead?. If you had it your way... what would you do with the ones like me?
 
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aristotle

Veteran Expediter
I already apologized for yanking chains around here Eddie and I'm not about to start with you.
About expressing my political views to the company I drive for, why the question?; should I be dismissed?, reported to the FBI?, shot dead?. If you had it your way... what would you do with the ones like me?

Sooooey... this reeks.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
I already apologized for yanking chains around here Eddie and I'm not about to start with you.
About expressing my political views to the company I drive for, why the question?; should I be dismissed?, reported to the FBI?, shot dead?. If you had it your way... what would you do with the ones like me?

LOL, what a joke!! do we have a "martyr" want to be among us!?!? lol.......:D
 

Steady Eddie

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I already apologized for yanking chains around here Eddie and I'm not about to start with you.

But yet you just keep yanking.

About expressing my political views to the company I drive for, why the question?;

not to the company you drive for..


should I be dismissed?,

never crossed my mind


reported to the FBI?,

Don't know. You hiding something?


shot dead?.

no, What a comment!


I
f you had it your way... what would you do with the ones like me?

Nothing, you are beyond help. You have your lopsided views and NOTHING I can do or say will change that. So have a good life!
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
In other words, let them fall trough the cracks?
Pretty much, yeah. The strong survive, the weak perish. It works well, always has, always will. If they're too stupid to even make the attempt to keep from falling through the cracks, or too stupid to ask for my help, it's not up to me to see that they don't.

, why don't we stop reserving handicapped parking spots and building wheelchair ramps now that we are at it?,
Sounds good to me. Or, rather, if a business wants to reserve some spots for handicapped parking, or build their own wheelchair ramp, fine, let them. It's their business. Let them run it as they see fit. If they don't want to spend the money for handicapped parking and wheelchair ramps, then they'll have to deal with the lost business. But just because someone is handicapped doesn't in and of itself entitle them to go where they want, or even where everyone else can go. It's not called "handicapped" for nuthin'.

I imagine that if you can't climb the stairs you don't belong in any public building in the first place.
I don't think the ability to climb stairs is the litmus test for whether or not you belong in a public building. But if a particular building has stairs that I can't climb, it's a pretty good bet that I don't belong in that one. That's like going to a restaurant and then complaining because I'm too fat to fit into their booths. I'll sit at a table, thanks.


As I mentioned before, this society gives you the tools to live in a civilized manner and they are financed by the taxes you pay. You want to have good roads, the protection of the police, national security, etc., but you don't want to pay for them?.
Excuse me, but I don't recall ever saying that I didn't want to pay for the basic services that society demands. Those services were not put in place against overwhelming objections, they were put there because of overwhelming demand. Roads, police and fire, national security, those are part of the essential services that we all demand. Welfare, free health care for those who can't or won't afford it, those are not services in overwhelming demand, and they are absolutely not part of the basic services we all demand.

When taxes are spent for the country and not diverted to fake wars, reconstruction firms and crazy subsidies to the already rich we may start to get the bang for our tax buck; but to see that we need a government of the people, by the people, for the people; and the removal of the extreme right from power is a first step.
Now you're wanting to pick and choose where your tax money is being spent. Why can you do that, and not me? I can think of a snotload of crazy subsidies and wasteful spending.

It's the pork that gets the headlines, but pork spending actually accounts for a mere one-half of one percent of the federal spending. You know where the spending is? Only six, count 'em six categories in the federal budget - Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Defense, National Debt Interest and Assistance programs like HUD, Welfare, Unemployment Compensation - account for 82 percent of total spending. 82 friggin' percent. Are you kiddin' me? The remaining 18 percent are programs for Homeland Security and Highways and everything else.

Medicare, Medicaid and Welfare are effective on autopilot, which means their spending is not set by a specific amount appropriated by the president or Congress on an annual basis, but rather is determined, get this, by the number of people eligible for the programs and the costs they create, whatever that figure comes to. That's a blank check. It should be no surprise that such "mandatory" programs (as they are called in Washington) have been, and will continue to be, the fastest-growing and largest parts of the federal budget, and the most wasteful.

The money spent on defense or some "crazy subsidy" for the rich is a drop in the bucket compared to this. Bang for your buck? Puhleeze.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Are you ready for this, even while my opinion is irrelevent as I said, i totally agree with Turtles last post......:D

When a person puts his own hand in his pocket and gives money to help another that he feels is in need, that charity and how it should be, when the government sticks its hand in a persons pocket and takes money (TAXES) to give to the walfare state, thats thief.......and no where in the Constitution does it say a siongle thing about the government using tax dollars to benefit on class of people at the expense of another...sorry it ain't how its done, other then when the liberal entitlement mentality groups do it illegally...........
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I didn't post here for a reason but here is why.


One real problem we have today is all aboutthe stuff. A vast majority of people, conservative and liberal, religious and secular, minority and majority all have an underlying predisposed attitude about their stuff and nothing else matters to them.

The stuff has roots in the union movement but someone can point out that it actually came to America through capitalism redefined in the 1950s by advertising companies and business.

Since we have a war on poverty, we have become used to having the government do the work for us, freeing us up for the pursuit of the stuff. Our charitable work that was done in the past by individuals is now done by the government and we have allowed ourselves to ignore our neighbors, our friends and our family because in the back of our minds we know that the government will help them somehow while at the same time become more greedy and selfish on all ends of the social spectrum.

As a collective force through our taxes, our society takes care of people who for a lot of reasons can or won’t take care of themselves at the same time the same taxes prevent a lot of us as individuals who want to help not help while others can’t afford to help because they must maintain the balance of the stuff within their world.

When people scream about the rich, they fail to understand that money does not get horded but it actually gets spent. I am not talking about the ultra-rich, like gates or buffet, but the family who has wealth of a few to a hundred million – they actually understand that the money is more than just the stuff.

The sad thing is, since FDR, there has been less of an involvement of people, less taking care of the neighbor, friend or family member. There was a time when people at the top took care of their employees; Ford, Studebaker family, Kellogg, Hershey and a lot of others had the money to setup programs, stores and medical care for their workers. Ford had a very good food program, he hired individuals how could barely work and put them to work and even helped southern during the depression handing out food, helping improve their farms and even schooling them. Kellogg for example took steps to prevent people from being laid off during the depression.

Charity works well with the individual than it ever could with government, the reason government got into the charity business in the first place was to gain more power, not to help people. Hoover said it well “why should I call out the army when all I need to do is call main street”

I see it a different way, being on both the helping side of things and the depression side. I see that many of the people who do fall between the cracks are the ones who should get the help; they are the ones who will become more productive after being helped and most likely to help others in turn. The ones, like a lot of welfare recipients, seem to be selfish and greedy to the point that they will never be willing to help out others when they have opportunity to help.



Remember it is not about the money but the stuff, and the stuff drives people today.
 
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