Thanks for NOTHING Barry!!!

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I have been speaking with my son who is stationed in Afghanistan. I was horrified to hear what is going on there.

The Rules of Engagement there are KILLING U.S. soldiers at a terrible rate. My son's unit has already had TWICE as many KILLED in 5 months than they lost in 16 months in Iraq. WHY? STUPID rules put in place by that USELESS Obama.

Then he went on to tell me about his living (if you want to call it that) conditions. He is NOT a front line combat soldier and lives in MUCH better conditions than they do!!

He lives in a tent, winter is coming, and they JUST NOW got full time electricity. They have an OPEN CESSPOOL in the center of their compound. WHY? Not enough Army Engineers to get the work done. WHY? Obama's stupidity!! Why do I blame him? His IS, after all, the Commander in CHIEF. The buck stops in HIS office. NO EXCUSES!!! NONE WHAT SO EVER!! Either do the job RIGHT or get out!!

I can ONLY PRAY that this scumbag in charge someday reaps the rewards of what he has sown. May he ROT IN H...!!!!

I don't REALLY CARE one bit what anyone in here thinks about what I just posted, this is my SON, MY FLESH and BLOOD, there is NO EXCUSE for this to happen.

The DEATHS that this PUTZ in charge is causing is on the HEADS of everyone who put him in office!!

Don't EVEN try to rationalize your actions, YOU are the cause!
You had better hope that YOU have no one in theater. IF you do, I pray your actions do not KILL THEM!! Imagine how hard it would be for you "Change and Hope People" to deal with their DEATHS!!!
 
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Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Yeah, I Have Heard about the So Called New and Improved Rules of Engagement Which Totally Suck!! It is Pretty Pathetic that the Idiot in Chief is Taking so Long to Make a Decision on More Troops for Afghanistan, I Believe it's been about 3 Months Now Hasn't It? We are there to Fight a War, So Let them do Their Jobs and Get it Done so they Can get Home, Just that Simple..We Don't Need some Moron in Congress or anyone Else for that Matter To Tell the Military How to do It's Job, I'm Sure they Know What to Do But Can't because of these Morons in Office! It's Pretty Pathetic that No Media has even Bothered to report on the Living Conditions for OUR Military! They are Not Pond Scum or anything else But Brave Men and Women and Should be treated with Respect which Includes Decent Living Conditions!! Does Vietnam Ring a Bell with Anyone??
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You cannot expect a COWARDLY BOY like BARRY to show any RESPECT for REAL MEN and WOMEN!!

I would LOVE to give him my two cents worth in person!! OH MAN, I may be 20 years OLDER than him but he would find out what a real MISTAKE it is to mess with MY son!!!

NOW he is messing with FAMILY!!! NOT a good idea!!
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The only rule should be kill any and all questionable individuals as quickly as possible.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
THAT would be a START, so would latrines!!! We know how to dig those and it would NOT cause that whimp Obama any international problems. Like I care about his problems. He has fewer uses than a disease ridden blood sucking leach does!!
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Our troops have been under ROE that have been set by the gutless libs in WC since we have been in the ME...they have no stomach for what needs to be done during war so the "tie" the hands of our tropps...Now with the new "leader" in the WH, and his taking over the Afgan war.....he has taken it to the next level while working with the corrupt govenment of Karzai to do nothing but protect his "fellow" muslums,,,forget that they are the ones that the war involves...and to hell with our troops... and yes, civilians die during war so don't start....but has you said Layout, barry is doing NOTHING to insure the safety of our troops.

I knew I had read and article on this topic within the last week so it wasn't hard to find, and it is even from the MSM, showing just how our troops are in danger and their hands are tied:

PS: what is called the "Karzai 12" is over and above the Libs in DC's imposed b/s ROE........

U.S. troops battle both Taliban and their own rules


Sara A. Carter
Originally published 05:45 a.m., November 16, 2009, updated 05:33 p.m., November 16, 2009 Washington Times - U.S. troops battle both Taliban and their own rules

KASHK-E-NOKHOWD, Afghanistan | Army Capt. Casey Thoreen wiped the last bit of sleep from his eyes before the sun rose over his isolated combat outpost.

His soldiers did the same as they checked and double-checked their weapons and communications equipment. Ahead was a dangerous foot patrol into the heart of Taliban territory.

"Has anyone seen the [Afghan National Army] guys?" asked Capt. Thoreen, 30, the commander of Blackwatch Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Infantry Regiment with the 5th Stryker Brigade. "Are they not showing up?"

A soldier, who looked ghostly in the reddish light of a headlamp, shook his head.

"We can't do anything if we don't have the ANA or [the Afghan National Police]," said a frustrated Capt. Thoreen.


"We have to follow the Karzai 12 rules. But the Taliban has no rules," he said. "Our soldiers have to juggle all these rules and regulations and they do it without hesitation despite everything. It's not easy for anyone out here."

"Karzai 12" refers to Afghanistan's newly re-elected president, Hamid Karzai, and a dozen rules set down by Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the commander of U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan, to try to keep Afghan civilian casualties to a minimum.

"It's a framework to ensure cultural sensitivity in planning and executing operations," said Capt. Thoreen. "It's a set of rules and could be characterized as part of the ROE," he said, referring to the rules of engagement.

Dozens of U.S. soldiers who spoke to The Washington Times during a recent visit to southern Afghanistan said these rules sometimes make a perilous mission even more difficult and dangerous.

Many times, the soldiers said, insurgents have escaped because U.S. forces are enforcing the rules. Meanwhile, they say, the toll of U.S. dead and injured is mounting.

By mid-November, Capt. Thoreen's unit had lost five soldiers to suicide bombings and improvised explosive devices (IEDs). Many more had been wounded and three of their Stryker vehicles had been destroyed.

In his Aug. 30 assessment of the situation in Afghanistan, which was leaked to the press, Gen. McChrystal said that the legitimacy of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) had been "severely damaged … in the eyes of the Afghan people" because of "an over-reliance on firepower and force protection."

To succeed, he wrote, "ISAF will have to change its operating culture to pursue a counterinsurgency approach that puts the Afghan people first." This entails "accepting some risk in the short term [but] will ultimately save lives in the long term."

The Times compiled an informal list of the new rules from interviews with U.S. forces. Among them:

• No night or surprise searches.

• Villagers have to be warned prior to searches.

• ANA or ANP must accompany U.S. units on searches.

• U.S. soldiers may not fire at the enemy unless the enemy is preparing to fire first.

• U.S. forces cannot engage the enemy if civilians are present.

• Only women can search women.

• Troops can fire at an insurgent if they catch him placing an IED but not if insurgents are walking away from an area where explosives have been laid.


The mission

Without Afghan army or police, Capt. Thoreen and his troops were about to scuttle their mission: a house-to-house search for weapons and insurgents in the poor Pashtun village of Kashk-E Nokhowd, combined with an effort to win over the village's 200 residents by passing out toys, pencils and toiletries.

Finally, a small ragtag group of Afghan police arrived to accompany the Americans. The Afghan army was a no-show.

The police, some of whom who looked as young as 13 in their oversized uniforms, have a poor reputation in the local Maywand district for corruption and extortion.

"I'm guessing it was too early for the Afghan National Army to get up out of bed and help us out," Capt. Thoreen said. "They're probably still asleep. Unbelievable."

"Is everyone accounted for?" he asked. "Let's move — stagger your positions."

As the sun revealed the Red Mountain of Maywand, the soldiers headed out the gate of combat outpost Rath with weapons ready.

They set up a security perimeter near a more than century-old British fortress, whose crumbling walls overshadowed the small outpost.

In 1880, British and Indian forces fought and lost a battle here against Afghan forces led by a girl named Mawali, a Pashtun interpreter told The Times. He asked that his name not be used to protect himself and his family from Taliban retribution.

"She told the men in the village that they were not men if they would not raise their arms to fight the enemy," he said. "They were so embarrassed they went to battle and Pashtun farmers killed more than 6,000 British and Indian soldiers."

The interpreter said this Pashtun Joan of Arc was buried not far from the village. On this day, however, there was not a woman in sight. Under the Taliban's strict interpretation of Islam, women are discouraged from appearing in public and are supposed to be shrouded head to toe in burqas.

Because of the Karzai 12 rules, U.S. forces have had to bring in American women to conduct searches of their Afghan counterparts.

So Cpl. Amy B. King, 42, a medic from Springfield, Mo.; Spc. Dionalyn O. Bird, 29, a cook from Bloomfield, Conn.; Spc. Toni Winkler, 20, a medic from South Carolina; and Sgt. Frevette J. Skelton, 31, a cook, entered the village with Capt. Thoreen's men.

"We have the women say their names before we search them because sometimes it's a man under the burqa," said Cpl. King. "In some cases, there are weapons on them."

"It's OK for the insurgents to use their women to hide weapons but it's not OK for us [men] to search them," said Staff Sgt. Joshua Yost, 27, of Shelton, Wash. "So now, we have to break our own rules and bring women into combat just so they can search the women."

Dusty little faces peered over ancient salmon-colored mud walls as the Americans entered the village. The children giggled and pointed at the soldiers.

"Stop, don't walk any closer," the Pashtun interpreter told a farmer and two boys who emerged from the back of the old British fort. "Stop where you are."

They kept walking in the soldiers' direction but the soldiers did not raise their weapons.

"Stop," the interpreter yelled again. "Don't move."

He then asked the man and boys to lift their traditional tunics to show the soldiers that they were not carrying weapons or explosives. Eventually, they were allowed to pass.

The platoon members spread across and around the fields surrounding the village. An announcement from a dilapidated mosque alerted villagers of the impending search.

"Well, the bad guys know we're coming," said the interpreter, laughing. "They're probably hiding their weapons by now."

Some of the men squatting outside the mosque looked stoic. Others stared in anger.

In the mosque, the soldiers discovered a 9 mm handgun with clips.

A U.S. civil affairs officer, who asked that his name not be revealed because of the nature of his work, said only insurgents carry such handguns. "Everyone here has Kalashnikovs, very few have these," he said.

The mosque's imam, who gave his name as Sahed, walked alongside the U.S. soldiers down a narrow dusty road, followed by a gaggle of children.

"We need help getting clean water," he told Capt. Thoreen through the interpreter. "Water is what is most important."

Civilian aid workers and State Department officials rarely visit Maywand because of security concerns, so development work falls on the U.S. military's shoulders.

"We have to be everything from the soldier to the engineer, water expert to medical care," Capt. Thoreen said.

"We try to hire locals but first we need to secure the region," he said. "We are not going to get the [nongovernmental organizations] out here until we do that."

Imam: U.S. 'needs to go'

Interviewed by The Times, Sahed the imam said U.S. troops were "respectful to his people and provided security."

"I tell my people in the mosque to not become suicide bombers and to not kill those who want to help us," he said.

However, asked about the presence of U.S. troops in his village, Sahed said they "need to go. Get out of Afghanistan or it will never be resolved. Between Islam and the infidel there can never be a relationship."

"In my personal opinion, the Americans won't be able to resolve this problem," he added. "The longer they stay the more likely there will be another attack like Sept. 11. It's only the Afghan people who will be able to resolve this problem."

The next day, however, the imam visited the U.S. combat outpost for the first time, bringing a gift of homemade yogurt candy. He told Capt. Thoreen that he had asked his people to stop targeting the U.S. soldiers.

Capt. Thoreen said he appreciated the gesture but wasn't sure whether the imam was telling the truth.

"To some degree we are trying to pull the people of Maywand back over," he said.

"In some ways, we're not just fighting for their security but our own and those of the ones we love back home."

Then he added, referring to the rules of engagement that his forces try to observe, "For our guys, it's tough. Sometimes they feel they have their hands tied behind their backs."

Contacted by e-mail after The Times' reporter and photographer had returned to the U.S., Capt. Thoreen described a clinic his unit had since hosted, which treated 75 locals including 20 women.

"It was a huge success. The people are becoming much more open and friendly," he said. As evidence of that success, he cited a drop in IED attacks on his soldiers.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I appears on the surface that Barry's plan is two-fold in nature. Kill off as MANY of OUR troops as possible. That will insure that the public to clamor to get us out of that war faster. The second side of that coin, it reduces the number of potential right wing radical veterans returning from over seas. A win win for Barry.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Yeah, But He's Having His 9th Meeting On Afghanistan Late Tonight!! He's a Freaking Joke and Should be Thrown out of that Office and Have Someone with Stones to Take Over!! :mad:
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You got that right!! HE needs to go THERE and work under the rules he is forcing our troops to work under. A week on the front lines MIGHT wake his sorry butt up!!!
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
You got that right!! HE needs to go THERE and work under the rules he is forcing our troops to work under. A week on the front lines MIGHT wake his sorry butt up!!!

You got that Right! But I Don't Think that the Boy Has the Stones to Even Think about Doing That!! Just Like a Few Others that I know!!
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I am not so sure on that one. Joe Biden's son went as did McCain's son. I have NOT looked up to see if any others have.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Wait a minute. This is going to sound insensitive but I think Obama has a tough choice here, Gen. McChrystal has put him in a bad position with his work on the ground and it may be a bad thing to escalate the war with the McChrystal planthat wasn't a part of the Iraq escalation.

The cultural sensitivity bit was started under Clinton and expanded under Bush and I got to remind you all that our cultural sensitivity extended to redesigning MREs and emergency supplies so not to 'offend' anyone. But this McChrystal plan is where I am starting to think three things need to happen;

One is replace Gen. McChrystal, he is part of the problem with his put Afghan people first program. It opens the door to less involvement and more look the other way. The direct result is the 12 step plan.

Two is to get rid of the idea that Nato needs to be there and go back to individual countries being involved without a centralised third party structure that has a less independence and more overall expenditures.

Three and most important is to tell the Afghani people and also the Pakistan people for that matter that if they want our support, it comes with a price - otherwise we are out of there with full troop withdrawal. Let the people decide what they want, to return to a taliban style of repression and totalitarianism or freedoms - if they want to return to their former government, so be it but if they want something better, then they have to step up to the plate and fight with us, no in between. If this means that the Tailban has women and children as a shield, it is their job to solve that problem and help kill the enemy. Put the burden on them and them alone because this is what the culture does understand.
 
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chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
McChrystal was and is barrys guy..he was put there to impliment barrys 'hands off the muslums" plan, and he was the one that barry WANTED for the job....

barry wants MORE Nato troops there not less, and Nato is simply waiting to see just what barry does, they are meeting later this month to see just how many more troops they will be sending...now, i agree, keep nato out, they are nothing but "in the way'...

As for getting the afgan gov (karzai) to go along is a joke, he is as corrupt as barry is inexperienced..and paka..is not much better and the only reason we continue there is because of the nukes....

barry has no desire to win this or any other war he may find himself in while he is in the WH...he has no use for the military or those that serve in it, and with each day that he messes around with this deployment, he is showing hus weakness, not only to the world leaders, the enemy but also too our troops, and to their families......

What happened to the plan he sad he had for afgan during the campiagn!?!? This was the war we "had to fight and should be fighting" , this was "the war we needed to win"....all bs...niw when he has to put up, he has nothing, never did.....he is having a meeting tonight with his agency heads, now he wants a better "exit" stradegy'....wait, he said he had a plan a yr ago...what he didn't have an exit plan then!?!?

He is worthless, and weak.....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Greg, I would LOVE to just pull everyone out now. There is a very long list of reasons WHY that is NOT a good idea. At the top of that list are the nukes in Pakistan. That is the trump card. WE MUST control the area. We have NO choice in the matter. If Afghanistan falls, so do those nukes. IF those nukes fall we will be in REAL trouble. So will the entire region and the world.

Get rid of Obama's boys, put in a General similar to Patton and turn him loose to win this thing. It would NOT take long. THEN, we can go about stabelizing things.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Then if it is all as you said, this is 1966 all over again and our worst is ahead of us.

Well the left is the one in control with this war as they were in the 60's and we lost because of these tactics if I am not mistaken. Democrats have a habit of repeating history, they want slaves again, yell and scream about the right being fascist when they are and taking us down another path of economic ruin.

If it matters to people that we win with less American deaths, then it becomes the burden of the American people who then need to vote someone else in to balance the power in Washington. But as one vet said to me, regardless who is doing the talking, the people don't know we are actually fighting a war because we are too far removed from reality.
 
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