Tea Party a Success !

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Doing the exact opposite of what this fool and his administration are doing would have been a better plan. I don't have the patience to detail it all but several before me have made good lists of what would have been FAR smarter but then when you have a lunatic running the asylum you get nothing but insanity.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
In fact, you could say that due to the failure to support a viable 3rd party candidate, those at the grassroots level on the Right - the ones with "clear vision" - literally drove folks into the arms of Obama. Almost too funny ...... if it weren't so sad ........
And that's your Catch-22 right there. Just because you, I, or anyone else likes a 3rd party candidate doesn't make them a viable candidate, no matter how badly we want it to be so. You can't just declare someone as being viable, they actually have to be viable in the first place. What makes them viable, is viable widespread support. They won't get viable widespread support until they are a viable candidate, and they aren't a viable candidate unless they have viable widespread support.

If only... if only.... if only!... isn't going to make them viable, either. ;)

The only way that's going to happen on the national stage is when someone rises out of the ashes and has leadership thrust upon them. We can only hope that when that happens, it's not a ruthless and evil dictator, cause whatever it is, we'll be stuck with it for a while.
 

dabluzman1

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Thank you for your opinions.
I know you couldnt answer the question as posed.
Now let me know, where are your champions, and what are they doing to overcome the stated lunacy by the Prez?
Or are they just as bad and going along with the program, you know, good old boys, same old same old.:eek:
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Thank you for your opinions.
I know you couldnt answer the question as posed.
Now let me know, where are your champions, and what are they doing to overcome the stated lunacy by the Prez?
Or are they just as bad and going along with the program, you know, good old boys, same old same old.:eek:

I really don't Have Any One Person In Mind, No Matter if It's a Republican, Democrat. Or a Third Party. It's Too Early To Tell who Will Get the Nod!! :D
 

dabluzman1

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I really don't Have Any One Person In Mind, No Matter if It's a Republican, Democrat. Or a Third Party. It's Too Early To Tell who Will Get the Nod!! :D

But surely, if Obama is as bad as many are saying, there has to be a movement by someone to halt his irrational actions NOW.
You dont mean to to tell me your solution is wait four years and hope?:cool:
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Thank you for your opinions.
I know you couldnt answer the question as posed.
Now let me know, where are your champions, and what are they doing to overcome the stated lunacy by the Prez?
Or are they just as bad and going along with the program, you know, good old boys, same old same old.:eek:

This is your original question?

Please, tell me, what do you think your candidate, if he had won, could have done to off set the disaster facing him left from the previous administration?

Answered...

Your new question.....I think you answered it by yourself....

Or are they just as bad and going along with the program, you know, good old boys, same old same old.

This is going to lead somewhere?
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
But surely, if Obama is as bad as many are saying, there has to be a movement by someone to halt his irrational actions NOW.
You dont mean to to tell me your solution is wait four years and hope?:cool:

No, My Solution is to Not Wait for Four Years to Stop Him, And I Only Hope that There is Someone Out There That Is a Whole Lot Smarter Than Me when It Comes to Politics That Can Start Some Kind of Movement to Get Rid Of Him. And If So, I Don't Have Any Problem At All In Joining Him/Her Or Them !! The Sooner The Better.......
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Or neutralize his power...win back some seats in both houses and slow him down.....get the message out to the people to pressure their rep to slow down....
 

dabluzman1

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
This is your original question?

Please, tell me, what do you think your candidate, if he had won, could have done to off set the disaster facing him left from the previous administration?

Answered...

Your new question.....I think you answered it by yourself....

Or are they just as bad and going along with the program, you know, good old boys, same old same old.

This is going to lead somewhere?

Well , I was wanting to know, who is the leader you would follow.
I want to study up on their positions and see if I would or should be as vocal against Obama as some here.
But,what I am hearing sounds more like lost souls hoping for rescue from ANYBODY.
Being so desperate is a very dangerous situation to be in.
Can you give me a glimmer of hope or is all lost?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Well , I was wanting to know, who is the leader you would follow.
I want to study up on their positions and see if I would or should be as vocal against Obama as some here.
But,what I am hearing sounds more like lost souls hoping for rescue from ANYBODY.
Being so desperate is a very dangerous situation to be in.
Can you give me a glimmer of hope or is all lost?

To be perfectly honest I don't have any real long background on American politics....I only know of life lessons and what I have experienced from simular situations of over 58 years.

Sorry but i am sensing this is a case of gamesmanship with you..
Your questions are aligned like ducks....maybe you can rope in some of these ultra-conservative types as I have no hatred for Obama...but no love either....I just happen to think some of his methods are wrong, some are iffy and some may work....
History will record how it turns out.
 

Darmstadter

Veteran Expediter
Where do you go to find information on elected officials and their voting patterns (especially on the local and state level)? It seems like the mainstream media is slanted one way or the other (MSNBC, CNN to the left and Fox to the right). I think a bigger issue is educating people on what they are voting for/against. If I don't know enough about candidates for a position, I skip it. How many people blindly pull the lever along party lines or name recognition?
 

dabluzman1

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
To be perfectly honest I don't have any real long background on American politics....I only know of life lessons and what I have experienced from simular situations of over 58 years.

Sorry but i am sensing this is a case of gamesmanship with you..
Your questions are aligned like ducks....maybe you can rope in some of these ultra-conservative types as I have no hatred for Obama...but no love either....I just happen to think some of his methods are wrong, some are iffy and some may work....
History will record how it turns out.

Gamesmanship, well possibly in a way, but I like the many discontent here dont think of my countries situation as a game.
But, I hope I dont sound as bitter or lost as most who have posted here.
My 57 years in this great country has been a joy. No place else I want to be even with our problems, which have occurred and re-occurred over the years.
I just refuse to be devastated to the degree of hoping anybody somebody would magically appear to right our situation.
What I do hear, in deafening volumes of silence, is an absolution of themselves as if they had nothing to do with the current problem.
Outrage pops now but not 4, 5, or 8 years ago when the spiral downward began.
we are still spinning out of control because most were duped into following Geo.
The American people voted him a second term of lunacy and after six months cry with Obama, yet I feel it is their hatred
and prejudice that are bemoaning the current Prez.
As I said, I am not an Obama lover, or follower for that matter.
I guess I am not much different than those whinning here as I grow weary of the great fault that devides this country and keeps it from regaining its place as the greatest country on the planet.
Opposition keeps the game even, or should, yet other than negative one sided scared statements, no-one has even brought a person who they would want to follow.
Any fool is one description of a savior. Theirs not mine. I am not that foolish.
No, it isnt a game to me, but , okay so their was a little gamesmanship to see if they had the where-with-all to continue playing once the rants were vented.
Your serve.:D
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Gamesmanship, well possibly in a way, but I like the many discontent here dont think of my countries situation as a game.
But, I hope I dont sound as bitter or lost as most who have posted here.
My 57 years in this great country has been a joy. No place else I want to be even with our problems, which have occurred and re-occurred over the years.
I just refuse to be devastated to the degree of hoping anybody somebody would magically appear to right our situation.
What I do hear, in deafening volumes of silence, is an absolution of themselves as if they had nothing to do with the current problem.
Outrage pops now but not 4, 5, or 8 years ago when the spiral downward began.
we are still spinning out of control because most were duped into following Geo.
The American people voted him a second term of lunacy and after six months cry with Obama, yet I feel it is their hatred
and prejudice that are bemoaning the current Prez.
As I said, I am not an Obama lover, or follower for that matter.
I guess I am not much different than those whinning here as I grow weary of the great fault that devides this country and keeps it from regaining its place as the greatest country on the planet.
Opposition keeps the game even, or should, yet other than negative one sided scared statements, no-one has even brought a person who they would want to follow.
Any fool is one description of a savior. Theirs not mine. I am not that foolish.
No, it isnt a game to me, but , okay so their was a little gamesmanship to see if they had the where-with-all to continue playing once the rants were vented.
Your serve.:D

I don't wanna serve:D

I like you don't want an ultra conservative nor an ultra Dem like he that serves now.....Like you some of these guys scare the beejeevees outta me....If I walked in here not knowing them like I do....I'd think most are extreme whack jobs!
Society grows, society learns, society expands their knowledge, but some of these guys would throw us back 150 yrs or more....and force their stiff and rigid demands on the now majority....
Since the Constitution was written for "We The People" The people have spoken and the Constitution should be not a strict rule but fluid enough that serves The People....
Peoples wants and needs are different now then 250 years ago...

Now your serve;)
 

dabluzman1

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I don't wanna serve:D

I like you don't want an ultra conservative nor an ultra Dem like he that serves now.....Like you some of these guys scare the beejeevees outta me....If I walked in here not knowing them like I do....I'd think most are extreme whack jobs!
Society grows, society learns, society expands their knowledge, but some of these guys would throw us back 150 yrs or more....and force their stiff and rigid demands on the now majority....
Since the Constitution was written for "We The People" The people have spoken and the Constitution should be not a strict rule but fluid enough that serves The People....
Peoples wants and needs are different now then 250 years ago...

Now your serve;)

The wants and needs..........hmmmmm
Yes the wants and needs have changed as technology changes our approach to life.
The basics are still the same.
It has allowed for the spawning of dissention. And rightly protected. Yet some how we havent figured out how to filter ideas that would be and are destructive .
Not an easy position as liberty would be in jeapordy.
Left wing, right wing, Dem, Rep, 3rd order,it makes my head
spin.
American.
It is all I hope we all could unite as.
I am a dreamer, I dream of hope and the future good.
The old structures do sometimes need to be razed to allow growth. So change is not a problem for me.
New ideas and new ways are scary to many here. Unfortunately, they should have been terrified with how things were before as well.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Give thought...That somewhere, some place there is ONE hopefully more then one.....that will step up to the plate...One that can appease the masses.....and bring this country back from the brink of self destructing....

On the other hand...

All empires fall....history is witness to this...maybe this is our time....BUT that said, then it will be time to rebuild and make ourselves greater then before....:)
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
You are Right About Being Duped with george, However, If the Dems would Have Put up a More Formidible Candidate than George then I would Have No Doubt Voted for that Guy.. But They Didn't!! We Were also and Still Are at War,Like it or Not, legal Or Illegal For What Ever Reason, We Are at War, And you don't change Horses in the Middle of the Race. George Started it and I was Hoping that it would be Finished by the End of His term---But It Wasn't and Now we Have This Guy as a President who has done Nothing But Screw this Country Over as Well as the Tax Payers time and Time Again.. No, There is No Hatred Towards Obama But I Have a Strong Disliking For Him as Well as a Whole Lot of His Minions But No Hatred, And It Sure as Hell Doesn't Matter to me as to What Color He is, But, He is A Liar, He's Sneaky, A Low Life Individual who Cares Nothing about this Country and Never Did! Just Look at the Crap He has Passed And is Trying to Get Passed! So If you Think It's Predjudice and Or Hatred Then So Be It! I Just Hope and Pray that there is Someone Else Out there That Can Get a Grip on This Country in 2012! And it doesn't Matter to me what Party They are With as I am a Registered Democrat (For the Time Being) But I Don't Drink The Koolaid Like a whole Bunch of Others Do and Vote the Whole Democratic Ticket. I Vote for the Lesser of the Two Evils, But it Looks Like the Evilist One of the Two Won----This Time!! :D
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
And that's your Catch-22 right there. Just because you, I, or anyone else likes a 3rd party candidate doesn't make them a viable candidate, no matter how badly we want it to be so. You can't just declare someone as being viable, they actually have to be viable in the first place. What makes them viable, is viable widespread support. They won't get viable widespread support until they are a viable candidate, and they aren't a viable candidate unless they have viable widespread support.
Sorry, but I don't agree - what you have stated is a false premise. Further, it assumes that the candidate in question, the one both you and I are referring to - Ron Paul - didn't have widespread support - there is much evidence to the contrary in fact, but first let's review the terms we are using to properly frame the argument, so that we are both on the same page:

Dictionary.com defines viable as follows:

5 "practicable; workable"

6 "having the ability to grow, expand, develop, etc."

and Merriam Webster defines viable, particularly as regards a politically candidacy, as follows:

3 c (1) "having a reasonable chance of succeeding"

Of course, nowhere in any of the above definitions does it state success is absolutely guaranteed. But using any of the above definitions as a measure, Ron Paul was a viable candidate.

One must understand that in the case of Ron Paul what actually happened was the voters, at least many of them, were quite open to his message, which largely revolved around the idea of a Pax Americana in it's original sense, which itself had stemmed from the Monroe Doctrine which in essence held that other countries (European, at the time) ought not be meddling in our affairs (or the affairs of newly independent countries in the Western Hemisphere) and we ought not be meddling in theirs. Extrapolate that to the entire world, and not just Europe, and you get the following:

The general idea was freedom, peace and security, and willingness for liberal trade with any and all.

Dr. Paul's message was, and more importantly, is, very appealing for many Americans across a broad political spectrum: it is against foreign meddling, adventurism and needless war, is for free trade, limited government, sound money, and low taxes (hey, what's not to like ?)

If one were to survey or poll the above, in an unbiased and unstacked manner, I'm quite sure that you would find that it is the position of the majority of Americans.

One practical measure of how broadly appealing it was, was the fact that Ron Paul set a record for single day fund raising, largely from small donations - outstripping both the Democrat and Republican parties, with their well-oiled fundraising machines. This fact speaks volumes, and should not be minimized, taken lightly, or discounted.

Another measure would be the amount of support that he received from both people who identified themselves as either Republican or Democrat, not to mention Independent (similar to Perot)

Care to guess how many Republicans voted for Obama in the last election ?

Or how many Democrats voted for McCain ?

Third is the level of support that he got from young voters. That an "old" guy like Dr. Paul was hugely popular with the college crowd is a bit of oddity on the onehand, but really on the other, it truly wasn't - because it was never about his personality, it was about the ideas he espoused

Those are just three quick ones off the top of my head, and doesn't include any specific polling data or other evidence. As I recall, there were points where Dr. Paul polled relatively high - considering that he had no big-monied special interests backing him, or the party machine - to the point that it surprised many (and probably scared the bejeebers out of a bunch in the political estabilishment)

One can only wonder what numbers he might have had, had the media been fair and allowed him to get out his message, rather than attempting to portray him as out of the mainstream and distort his political views.

So what happened - why didn't Paul win ?

That's fairly easy - there are entrenched interests - in the political sphere, these are known as the Republican and Democratic parties - but there are others outside of just the political parties who had much to lose as well. These interests had no doubt whatsoever that Paul, while running as a nominally Republican, was not part of the normal political establishment. Therefore, the parties sought to minimize and exclude Dr. Paul in just about any way they could.

And the relatively weak-minded bought into the argument that he was "unelectable" and that voting for him was a "wasted vote" .... yup - nothing like the two Parties keeping them voters "pregnant and barefoot, down on the farm" ....

(This is almost repeat of what happened with Perot in '92 - polling suggested that had people voted their conscience for who they felt was the best candidate, he would have won - although Perot admittedly shot himself in the foot - something Ron Paul did not do during his campaign - by withdrawing and then re-entering the election. Of course had Perot won, it would have been very interesting indeed ...)

Several fairly egregious examples of the media treatment that Dr. Paul were the derisive treatment from Sean Hannity (just another hack media celebrity, and not a journalist - nor a true conservative - in any sense of the word), (Republican) pollster Frank Lund (who isn't an honest broker, and gets paid to deliver "certain" results), and Carl Cameron and Chris Wallace of Faux News. My regard for these individuals is somewhere south of lawyers and other similar bottom-dwelling scum - mainly because they sought to portray things as they were not, thereby depriving the American voter of making an informed choice. They let their own personal political agendas get in the way of the duty they purported to have as journalists. With Lund and Hannity I wasn't really surprised ... as I have viewed them as celeb hacks for some time (Hannity is about on the same level as say a Keith Olberman ... but nowhere near as intelligent, or as witty).... but Chris Wallace and Carl Cameron .... wow .... I had no idea. No doubt they were just doing the bidding of their masters .....

(FWIW, my own personal taste in political talking heads is more along the lines of Lou Dobbs, Brit Hume, Glenn Beck, and Mike Church. While they all no doubt have their own political bent, they at least appear to me to make an effort to be somewhat sane and rational. And I think they attempt to be "honest brokers" .... of course, Mike Church is .... different .... more of an entertainer. As well as the four mentioned previously (Hannity, Lund, Wallace, and Cameron), Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Keith Olberman, Andrew Wilkow, Joe Scarborough, and Rush Limberger, to name but a few are among those that fall into the class that I (not-so) affectionately call the "mainstream media morons" - they do little to further serious debate of the issues of the day, often focus on the trivial, and mainly appeal to emotion, and not reason or rationality)

Dr. Paul's own party sought to exclude him from some of the debates, and was partially successful, and the other party acquiesced - that in itself ought to tell you something - these jokers are essentially conspiring to limit your choices, and that's not because they are "looking out for you" - but simply because they are looking out for themselves, and others they are beholden to.

What most folks fail to realize (Layoutshooter being one exception) is that generally, whether you are voting for a Republican, or a Democrat, you are voting for the same thing. While things have been set up to make it appear to the voters as though there are some differences, there really aren't any on a functional level - you get the same crap with either of them: less freedom, and less money in your pocket ..... and more money in theirs.

In one sense, while Ron Paul didn't win the Presidency, he did in fact win - think about it: today, his name (and more importantly his principles) are known to a far greater degree than they ever were ..... not just here in the US, but throughout the world.

He started the Campaign for Liberty (<--- click on the link) to continue to expand and carry on the work he has been doing as an elected representative and statesman for a good part of his adult life, and get more folks started in grassroots political activism. This isn't limited to just the United States either - C4L has groups in many countries all over the world - promoting Paul's core values - which are ostensibly traditional American values, the values of The Founders. If that isn't evidence for "widespread support" of the ideas he espouses I surely don't know what is. :D

This is how we ought to be exporting "liberty and democracy" .... quietly, peacefully, with education and understanding .... rather than at the point of a bayonet, or the barrel of a gun.

The only way this country, and we as a (formerly) free people, have a prayer of a chance, is if we take back our governement - and I can tell ya with absolute certainty, that the path to that does not go thru either the Republican or the Democratic Parties, as things presently exist.

If one wants to understand exactly who it was you didn't vote for, and who you didn't elect, please take 10 minutes and view the following YouTube video, which details just some of what I was talking about in regards to the mainstream media.

And please take note of the dates of some of Dr. Paul's predictions (Note: Peter Schiff is the former Economic Adviser to the Ron Paul for President campaign)

Ron Paul Predicts

One can only hope that folks having voted, can now be happy with the consequences which are about to come, as a result of that vote. Let me tell ya:

.... you ain't seen nothin' yet ......
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Bush was a mediocre president.
A rather generous statement like that might one to draw conclusions about how low your standards actually are .....

He did not do what he should to close and protect our borders and our sovereignty.
Well duh ....

He signed off on too much earmarking and spending. Even so, Obama has at the very least doubled the amount of debt left by Bush in 8 years in office and Obama has doubled it in less than 8 months! At the current rate we will be talking quadrillion dollar debt if fools put Obama in for another four years.
Perhaps true .... but Bush nearly doubled the debt during his time in office ... the above illustrates the point I've made repeatedly - there is no functional difference between them, Republican or Dem, it's the same old, same old.

And just in case the fact has escaped you, using your logic above, that would make you one of the morons that allowed that to happen (doubling of the debt under Bush) ..... by voting for him twice.

I hafta do a mea culpa here - I'm guilty too - I voted for him twice as well - however there is a difference between me and thee LDB - I've learned my lesson.

You though .... you're still doin' the same thing and expectin' a different result ..... so much for that clear vision thing, eh ?
 
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